p.9 #1 · NIKON NEWS -- Worse than I thought (*NOT my words).
Yeah that makes sense. I'm not really an active gear seller so that mindset really isn't for me. I contemplated selling my DSLR's about a year ago and just...couldn't because I love the stuff too much. I guess I'm just odd for having an emotional connection to my gear. mawz wrote:
I suspect he could have as well, but I also think he knows he doesn't really need anything until after the new Z's drop, so there's no point for him to buy a Z6 right now rather than a Z6s in 3 months. It's worth selling now because there's a bubble in the used market.
p.9 #2 · NIKON NEWS -- Worse than I thought (*NOT my words).
"a lot of the established base is going to move slowly to upgrade, but they will eventually upgrade - to a newer Nikon"
That is a very big assumption IMHO, especially if DSLR development essentially stops. Its always dangerous to bring out a new lens mount, because a proportion of your previous users may well decide to change brand if they have to change all their lenses anway to get the best modern performance. A great deal will depend on the cost of competing kit, if Canon say were to bring out a FF body for say £700 (however stripped down) and some affordable lenses to fit it I would suggest alot of Nikon F people would jump ship. Nikon, as yet, show little indication that they are able to issue enthusiast price Z full frame kit (I don't call £1500 bodies and £2000 zooms enthusiast).
p.9 #3 · NIKON NEWS -- Worse than I thought (*NOT my words).
I actually think the days of large scale system switching to Sony has largely passed. Canon now has compelling mirrorless cameras and a growing lens line. Nikon should have a compelling mirrorless body line with the upcoming releases of the Z6s/Z7s (I have faith!). Couple this with the excellent quality of Nikon's S lens line should make them competitive as the lens line grows.
In my view each of the big three will end up competing on equal terms for new customers. Both Canon and Nikon should have an advantage upgrading their large bases of existing users to mirrorless. Sony will have to offer compelling new features to get their existing mirrorless base to newer mirrorless models.
This will be good for all of use no mater which brand we are currently using.
p.9 #4 · NIKON NEWS -- Worse than I thought (*NOT my words).
1bwana1 wrote:
I actually think the days of large scale system switching to Sony has largely passed. Canon now has compelling mirrorless cameras and a growing lens line. Nikon should have a compelling mirrorless body line with the upcoming releases of the Z6s/Z7s (I have faith!). Couple this with the excellent quality of Nikon's S lens line should make them competitive as the lens line grows.
In my view each of the big three will end up competing on equal terms for new customers. Both Canon and Nikon should have an advantage upgrading their large bases of existing users to mirrorless. Sony will have to offer compelling new features to get their existing mirrorless base to newer mirrorless models.
This will be good for all of use no mater which brand we are currently using.
Yes, there is a huge potential customer base that uses phones as their cameras today. It will be interesting how these three will compete for these customers.
p.9 #5 · NIKON NEWS -- Worse than I thought (*NOT my words).
chez wrote:
Yes, there is a huge potential customer base that uses phones as their cameras today. It will be interesting how these three will compete for these customers.
I have been choosing my smart phones based on which had the best phone/email/text/web implementations. To me it has been a communications device. Since all smart phones are very good with those features these days, I will likely make my next phone purchase decision based photo and video capabilities, and the ability to integrate with my FF camera systems. Including mobile editing.
The competition goes both ways now for me.
Of course I am not a frequent phone buyer. I have the same phone number and provider I have had since my first briefcase mobile phone in the 1980s. My current smart phone is at least 5 years old, and it's camera sucks compared to the new one. I should probably upgrade soon. But it is such a hassle.
p.9 #6 · NIKON NEWS -- Worse than I thought (*NOT my words).
Imagemaster wrote:
And you are extolling the longevity and reliability of dslr over milc, when milc has not been around as long as dslr.
Sort of like a Ford owner doing the same with Tesla.
And at what point do you think maturity for either system will be reached?
"And you are extolling the longevity and reliability of dslr over milc, when milc has not been around as long as dslr." that's exactly my point when (some) milc users are claiming that milc tech is better. i'm merely saying better does not imply reliability or robustness.
for as long as dslr has been around, one can say the technology of dslr is more mature than milc. and there are sufficient repair data to determine the reliability and robustness of dslr. the same cannot be said for milc.
similar argument can be made for gasoline-powered and electrically-powered vehicles. innovation does not equate to reliability.
system maturity is dependent on the metrics used to measure it. if technology is a metric, then system maturity is reached when the technology curve is flatten, and no further technological advancement can be achieved.
p.9 #7 · NIKON NEWS -- Worse than I thought (*NOT my words).
1bwana1 wrote:
Trying to prove a negative is never worth the effort.
By your standards we cannot assume anything about the Nikon Z camera bodies, and the Nikon S lens line. They have been in production, and in the field much less time than the Sony cameras and lenses.
Double standards my friend.......
for the record, you have been touting the benefits of milc over dslr. so, i'm merely pointing out the longevity and reliability of dslr over milc.
so if there is a double standard, it's coming from you for not admitting that milc is still a work in progress.
p.9 #8 · NIKON NEWS -- Worse than I thought (*NOT my words).
1bwana1 wrote:
I have been choosing my smart phones based on which had the best phone/email/text/web implementations. To me it has been a communications device. Since all smart phones are very good with those features these days, I will likely make my next phone purchase decision based photo and video capabilities, and the ability to integrate with my FF camera systems. Including mobile editing.
The competition goes both ways now for me.
Of course I am not a frequent phone buyer. I have the same phone number and provider I have had since my first briefcase mobile phone in the 1980s. My current smart phone is at least 5 years old, and it's camera sucks compared to the new one. I should probably upgrade soon. But it is such a hassle. ...Show more →
I kept the phone I used when working...5 years ago. At the time I retired, the phone was 3 years old. I have no desires to upgrade my phone.
p.9 #9 · NIKON NEWS -- Worse than I thought (*NOT my words).
mysh wrote:
I don't mind the discussions about Nikons current state but I do take issue with how it is framed a lot of times. Nikon has gotten bashed since the Z launch and its not justified. I really don't think the Z launch is the main factor with nikons current financial state. It contributes since the youtube movement disapproved but there is bigger things going on.
Nikon is the smallest of the 3 companies and therefore will have a harder time weathering a bad camera market. They don't have the diversification that canon and Sony has to help lift up a camera division that is sinking due to plummeting sales numbers. I don't doubt Nikon has some major issues but to act like its solely due to the Z releases is wrong.
Lets be truly honest about the Z cameras. People act like they come up short compared to competitors and its not reality. The Z6 was arguably the best camera in that class until a couple months ago. All cameras have pros/cons but the Z6 stood up well to any other camera in its class.
The Z7 was the 2nd best camera in its class till a few months ago and in my opinion was the best for certain uses. I am a landscape photographer and before the A7R4 I wouldn't want any other camera. Of course there is the argument about AF which is valid but for my use its is irrelevant. The Z7 excelled at scapes, studio and product photos and this is the audience this camera is designed for.
I know there is the whole single card issue but the other big company dropped the ball as well. Canons offerings were so weak in many ways. No IBIS, single card slot, weird new joystick replacement, and a sensor that was outdated 8 years ago.
I find it funny that canon finally releases a decent mirrorless a month ago and all of this is forgotten. People act like Nikon is so behind when these latest cameras were just released. I also think people forget the true cycle for these FF cameras. People want to act like its a 6 month cycle, it is 2+ years. Nikon is still on cycle and if they don't exactly meet it I think a certain pandemic has something to do with it.
If Nikon comes out with a killer mirrorless in the next 6 months everyone will forget all of this, but that won't change the greater issue anyways which is the camera industry is struggling and Nikon is small in comparison. Thats why the Z release and how they stack up against other brands isn't a huge factor. Cameras as a whole are amazing now from all these brands yet sales are diving. It's bigger than specs.
Also people keep thinking something ground breaking needs to happen, yet in reality groundbreaking with current tech just isn't going to happen.
People raved about the R5 but what did it truly add to the class. 8K(sort of) and faster than expected FPS. Otherwise this amazing camera just caught up with IBIS and a good sensor.
One last thing the D850 is the greatest DSLR ever made and its 3 years old. That isn't much older than the typical cycle. This just shows how impatient people are. They like to act like Nikon has does nothing good for years and they have acted that way for the past 2 years yet the D850 was still on the newer side. ...Show more →
it's my impression that some sony cheerleaders are needing constant affirmation of their existing purchase and possibly future upgrade.
Sep 09, 2020 at 08:05 PM
brian_sp Offline • • • • [X]
p.9 #10 · NIKON NEWS -- Worse than I thought (*NOT my words).
mawz wrote:
D850 max FPS challenges (due to contact issues on the grip).
that is rubbish...most people that wanted the higher frame rate went with aftermarket grips, so if there is a poor contact with these grips you are going to blame nikon for it?
p.9 #11 · NIKON NEWS -- Worse than I thought (*NOT my words).
tntcorp wrote:
"And you are extolling the longevity and reliability of dslr over milc, when milc has not been around as long as dslr." that's exactly my point when (some) milc users are claiming that milc tech is better. i'm merely saying better does not imply reliability or robustness.
for as long as dslr has been around, one can say the technology of dslr is more mature than milc. and there are sufficient repair data to determine the reliability and robustness of dslr. the same cannot be said for milc.
similar argument can be made for gasoline-powered and electrically-powered vehicles. innovation does not equate to reliability.
system maturity is dependent on the metrics used to measure it. if technology is a metric, then system maturity is reached when the technology curve is flatten, and no further technological advancement can be achieved. ...Show more →
So what? Blah blah, blah. Tell us something we all don't already know.
p.9 #12 · NIKON NEWS -- Worse than I thought (*NOT my words).
tntcorp wrote:
for the record, you have been touting the benefits of milc over dslr. so, i'm merely pointing out the longevity and reliability of dslr over milc.
so if there is a double standard, it's coming from you for not admitting that milc is still a work in progress.
For the record, I am not questioning the durability of DSLR cameras. They have proven both robust and repairable if issues do develop over the long term.
I have not seen any evidence that milc is less durable than DSLR however. If you have some, I would like to see it. There is the theory often expressed in the industry that since mirrorless has fewer moving parts, including all the mechanics involved in managing the mirror and associated exposure and focusing components, they will last longer and need less maintenance. In fact some shoot primarily in electronic shutter mode so don't even wear out the shutter.
Here is just one of many examples of this theory.
Titled "Why the mirror has to go":
"The mirror and phase-based autofocus system make camera design more complex, with additional optical and mechanical challenges and need for precise calibration between the various parts. It also increases the risk of mechanical failure "
I agree that mirrorless being newer we don't have as much evidence in the real World to make a claim that mirrorless is even more durable than DSLR. But it does seem possible, and even likely.
p.9 #13 · NIKON NEWS -- Worse than I thought (*NOT my words).
tntcorp wrote:
system maturity is dependent on the metrics used to measure it. if technology is a metric, then system maturity is reached when the technology curve is flatten, and no further technological advancement can be achieved.
And exactly where in the camera industry has this type of maturity occured?
Certainly not Cameras DSLR or mirrorless, or lenses.
p.9 #14 · NIKON NEWS -- Worse than I thought (*NOT my words).
Dragonfire wrote:
Canon and Sony are both selling 7lb - 400 f2.8 and 600 f4 lenses while Nikon is still selling the 8.5lb lenses.
Nikon does not have the capitol to compete and this should have been an Olympic year for the 400 2.8 .
OwlsEyes wrote:
Why is it necessary to bring your brand bashing crap onto the Nikon board...
If one is to post any type of messages or statements about Nikon...
What Forum Board do you think that it should necessarily be posted on?
p.9 #16 · NIKON NEWS -- Worse than I thought (*NOT my words).
It seems to me the interest in Nikon's future and well being is inveresely proportionate to the amount of gear you own. So, the more Nikon gear you own, the less the concern or the less you push the line of impending doom and the less Nikon gear you have the more fervent the desire to make sure everyone knows the supposed financial problems Nikon has. I mean, we really must be grateful that these kind hearted souls are so concerned about the plight of Nikon that they spend a disproprtionate time here telling us that we should all be fearful of the collapse of Nikon. The concern is just so heartwarming it almost makes me rethink human nature...not. Or could it be another reason? I am actually trying to work out what actual good any of it does other than give the doomsayers an unwarranted feeling of superiority as they are certainly unconcerned with your plight. It reminds me of those old school religious preachers thumping the pulpit telling us all to watch out or you will all fry in hell and damnation. It's not about saving you, it's about preaching. But we're only doing it out of the goodness of our hearts, truly! .
p.9 #17 · NIKON NEWS -- Worse than I thought (*NOT my words).
Contrary to the doomsayers, there is abundant evidence Nikon knows what it's up to. Notwithstanding the technical data and snippets revealed in the occasional interviews, and a few of the many leaks (many of which are false); to paraphrase the late Steve Gould, we Nikon clients can only "see through a lens darkly". The traditions of their Japanese cultural approach to business and the tech industry presents many opaque/shuttered windows. We run up against these frustrations in only glimpses of information - so guessing at future gear, especially with Nikon's marketing being mediocre etc.... But Nikon say repeatedly they are committed to both F and Z systems.
Nevertheless, speaking practicably, there are very few gaps in the existing Nikkors - and no gap sets a major hamstring on our photography. The DSLRs are the best available in the camera industry, and the Z MILCs will improve as Nikon completes the Z map. Nikon has to deliver competitive products because they have the most to lose if they fail.
Too many posts in this thread push too far the recurring bashing of Nikon/dslrs. Basically there are few active in this forum who are trolls, thinly disguised or not. They are beyond testing one's patience. so I resorted to the Hide command to remove several of the posters who offer nothing to this forum than sounding off and spreading shallow statements: some of which are sadly malicious and/or rubbish.
These trolls represent the grimier aspects of these forums, which reach the dregs in dpr.
Fortunately, FM stands apart mostly and the stalwarts share useful information. One factor is these are the photographers who get away from the keyboard. They get out and about with their gear, actually use it, and share their experiences..
JadedWriter wrote:
I basically don't trust anybody preaching Angry Photographer. To have the gear that he has, the reach he has, the entitled opinion that he has and not even a basic portfolio to show for it is suspect. I have worked plenty of events and can easily and readily show it. I don't even recommend...anything without showing photographically why I like it and all he does is sit at a cheap desk and rant about crap and all of a sudden I'm supposed to believe him? No. As for the OP there's probably an agenda there. When it comes to Sony and Nikon these days I wouldn't take anything he says as gospel.
p.9 #18 · NIKON NEWS -- Worse than I thought (*NOT my words).
chambeshi wrote:
Contrary to the doomsayers, there is abundant evidence Nikon knows what it's up to. Notwithstanding the technical data and snippets revealed in the occasional interviews, and a few of the many leaks (many of which are false); to paraphrase the late Steve Gould, we Nikon clients can only "see through a lens darkly". The traditions of their Japanese cultural approach to business and the tech industry presents many opaque/shuttered windows. We run up against these frustrations in only glimpses of information - so guessing at future gear, especially with Nikon's marketing being mediocre etc.... But Nikon say repeatedly they are committed to both F and Z systems.
Nevertheless, speaking practicably, there are very few gaps in the existing Nikkors - and no gap hamstrings our photography. The DSLRs are the best available in the camera industry, and the Z MILCs will improve as Nikon completes the Z map. Nikon has to deliver competitive products because they have the most to lose if they fail.
Too many posts in this thread push the recurring Nikon/dslrs too far. Basically there are few active in this forum are trolls, thinly disguised or not. They are beyond testing one's patience. so I resorted to the Hide command to remove several of the posters who offer nothing to this forum than sounding off and spreading shallow statements: some of which are sadly malicious and/or rubbish.
These trolls represent the grimier aspects of these forums, which reach the dregs in dpr.
Fortunately, FM stands apart mostly and the stalwarts share useful information. One factor is these are the photographers who get away from the keyboard. They get out and about with their gear, actually use it, and share their experiences..
p.9 #19 · NIKON NEWS -- Worse than I thought (*NOT my words).
Takira71A wrote:
If one is to post any type of messages or statements about Nikon...
What Forum Board do you think that it should necessarily be posted on?
Your source is questionable. Ken has had an axe to grind with Nikon for years because Nikon refuses to send him pre-production models. The lack of evidence to support his commentary is not unusual. As such, whenever he is quoted as the primary source for some perspective related to Nikon gear, it is hard not to see this as an attempt to troll the Nikon forum.
Trolling the Nikon forum has become a bit of a sport on FM. We get the repeated CIPA post, Nikon is dying post, The Z-system is a failure post, Nikon can't ship post. At this point, many of these realities are no longer news. Instead, they seem to validate the purchasing decision made by those who recently switched to Sony or contemplate a switch to Canon. These types of posts make some non-Nikon owners empowered to stir-the-pot, and thus cause people to spiral into a 10 page thread that hashes over the same old argument.
As I have stated before, it would be great if Fred had a "Photo News" thread (oh wait he does!)... or a "Photo Industry" thread and people were to post things like this there. Rather than inflaming some, initiating a backlash of defensiveness, or inspiring frustration, a thread like this might be discussed in a measured way.
It seems that this type of drivel of redundant arguments that rope in the likes of chez and dragonfire (neither shoot Nikon) among other non-Nikon shooter, just stoke the fire.
As far as I am concerned, you can post what you want, I just need to do a better job of deciding who's posts I should read.
Shame on me for being baited into this discussion.
p.9 #20 · NIKON NEWS -- Worse than I thought (*NOT my words).
2020 has been basically my Nikon resurrection year, I have taken way more pics with my Nikon's than my mirrorless cameras. I mostly stay very far away from sales threads because I honestly don't care, but honestly I don't care if Nikon is #1 or #3 as long as they're in business to sell me things to use to take pictures. I checked what my Flickr upload tags are for the year between companies and it's been quite interesting:
Nikon 777
Fuji 290
Sony 442
Keep in mind that doesn't factor in my actual work stuff.
chambeshi wrote:
Contrary to the doomsayers, there is abundant evidence Nikon knows what it's up to. Notwithstanding the technical data and snippets revealed in the occasional interviews, and a few of the many leaks (many of which are false); to paraphrase the late Steve Gould, we Nikon clients can only "see through a lens darkly". The traditions of their Japanese cultural approach to business and the tech industry presents many opaque/shuttered windows. We run up against these frustrations in only glimpses of information - so guessing at future gear, especially with Nikon's marketing being mediocre etc.... But Nikon say repeatedly they are committed to both F and Z systems.
Nevertheless, speaking practicably, there are very few gaps in the existing Nikkors - and no gap hamstrings our photography. The DSLRs are the best available in the camera industry, and the Z MILCs will improve as Nikon completes the Z map. Nikon has to deliver competitive products because they have the most to lose if they fail.
Too many posts in this thread push too far the recurring bashing of Nikon/dslrs. Basically there are few active in this forum are trolls, thinly disguised or not. They are beyond testing one's patience. so I resorted to the Hide command to remove several of the posters who offer nothing to this forum than sounding off and spreading shallow statements: some of which are sadly malicious and/or rubbish.
These trolls represent the grimier aspects of these forums, which reach the dregs in dpr.
Fortunately, FM stands apart mostly and the stalwarts share useful information. One factor is these are the photographers who get away from the keyboard. They get out and about with their gear, actually use it, and share their experiences..
.