"I can’t reveal any more but it is most certainly not a sidegrade to the 10. Rather a fairly substantial upgrade. As always with Leica, the question on my mind is the following - for significantly less than the price of the M11 body I could get a Sony A1 that outperforms it in every way except for soul and (IMO) colours."
What was the M10 MSRP? My impression is it wasn't much more than a Sony a1. Therefore if any of the above 'leak' is true, the M11 sounds to be considerably more expensive, likely in the M10-R price range, or higher.
This would leave a considerable pricing gap that Leica could (should) address with a refreshed previous generation M-E type of camera. IMO it would be unfortunate if USD 9K became the new normal for an M.
rscheffler wrote:
What was the M10 MSRP? My impression is it wasn't much more than a Sony a1. Therefore if any of the above 'leak' is true, the M11 sounds to be considerably more expensive, likely in the M10-R price range, or higher.
This would leave a considerable pricing gap that Leica could (should) address with a refreshed previous generation M-E type of camera. IMO it would be unfortunate if USD 9K became the new normal for an M.
I seem to remember the M10 MSPR was under $7000 when it first came out. That's one of the reasons I was so astonished recently to see them selling around $8000. I thought I was trying to buy Japanese whisky or something.
At present (if you can get your hands on one), the Sony A1 is $6500. The M10-P seems to be selling for around $7995, and the M10-R is selling for $8995. From a value perspective, I think it absurd to compare the two - the Sony A1 is a much more capable camera in every conceivable way. I find it so delightful to use that I don't even worry about "soul" - all those photographers who are looking for a camera that "gets out of the way" or "puts the picture-taking experience first" should be most impressed with what Sony has accomplished in the A1.
With that said, the M cameras do have a strange attraction - I love them not because they're better than the A1 (they clearly are not), but because of how different the whole process is. Getting the capture process right feels like a little more of an accomplishment than the insanely accurate automation of the Sony. The weight and feel of the rings, dials, and buttons have that old-school mechanical goodness, and the viewfinder is bright and purely optical - things Sony stuff can't match. Plus, the cameras and lenses are still incomparably small and discrete, notwithstanding Leica's creeping toward ludicrously large lenses like everyone else (a manually focusing, 1kg 90mm f/1.4 that costs $13K - WTF Leica?). However, $9000+ for the camera component of that experience (good thing I bought the lenses years ago!) is pretty rich. I'm more guilty than most of acquiring expensive baubles, but that "luxury" perspective is really the only way I can process Leica's insane pricing and Swiss-watchmaker approach to annually raising those prices. Leica cameras are more than ever just a purveyor of "luxury" goods having a photographic function. One needs a Leica to take pictures the same way he/she needs a Rolex to tell me the time, or a Lotus to get to work.
Congratulations I guess? I bought my M240 new because at the time I bought it, there weren't any used ones. And it was probably the right choice since I had several warranty services that would've been quite costly out-of-pocket.
Of course it's subjective. But a third party base plate isn't all that much money, and in this instance provides benefits well beyond the usual tripod functionality. It gives you easier access to your battery and SD card, renders the camera a little more robust to dings and dents, and also allows you to spare the original base plate from the inevitable scars and brassing of use (which can help with resale of the camera).
Also, I suspect that many would "subjectively" consider it sacrilegious to use non-Leica glass on these cameras. To be clear, I am absolutely not one of those people, but snobbery thinly disguised as subjectivity and personal preference abounds in this space, where the camera system is as much (if not moreso) a luxury good as it is a tool. ...Show more →
Well taken points I mostly agree with. For me any kind of camera is used as tool, not as collector or luxury item per se. But I agree that especially with Leica there are many who purchase Leica for very different reasons which is fine. I mentioned it earlier in another thread here, but before I actually owned my first Leica M film camera, I used multiple M lenses from Leica and Voigtlander for several years exclusively on my Sony A7R which worked with very few exemptions very well for me. Already this would be a sacrilege for some Leica users - but I really don't care, the end result counts for me. I only bought into digital Leica M when I had this great opportunity for the M-E 240 which I will continue to use for many years to come.
Not to be Euro-Christian focused on Christmas, but if they know that it is coming out soon, why wouldn’t you announce the new camera, and deliver it when ever you were going to deliver it anyways? Christmas gifting and self-buying is a thing, and by not giving people the announcement, you might risk people taking M11 money and using somewhere else. Maybe at this price-point/consumer level, it doesn’t matter?
It seems people are planning on a Jan announcement, but why wait a month. I’m thinking that we’ll get dribs-brabs and it will announce in March, with summer deliveries limited and they’ll have a backlog of orders through this time next year.. Plus, I think it will be $9k+/-$500.
anselwannab wrote:
Not to be Euro-Christian focused on Christmas, but if they know that it is coming out soon, why wouldn’t you announce the new camera, and deliver it when ever you were going to deliver it anyways? Christmas gifting and self-buying is a thing, and by not giving people the announcement, you might risk people taking M11 money and using somewhere else. Maybe at this price-point/consumer level, it doesn’t matter?
It seems people are planning on a Jan announcement, but why wait a month. I’m thinking that we’ll get dribs-brabs and it will announce in March, with summer deliveries limited and they’ll have a backlog of orders through this time next year.. Plus, I think it will be $9k+/-$500.
For something that costs $7k+ you either have saved that money for the purpose and are guarding it closely or you have so much money it is irrelevant. Nobody spends 7k on something else because the original thing they saved it for is going to be a month or three late.
At the end of the day if someone is really itching to drop that 7k the M10-R is still there and you can spend that bit more on it by ordering a black paint one.
andrewd01 wrote:
You don’t get six runs for hitting a baseball out of the park. The leaker must be a cricket fan so most likely from the England, Australia or India
I'm not American and I still say stuff like 'home run' and 'doood where's my car?'
andrewd01 wrote:
You don’t get six runs for hitting a baseball out of the park. The leaker must be a cricket fan so most likely from the England, Australia or India
Whoever it is, I like the leaks! If it's an official leak marketing campaign, even better 😎
"Had the opportunity to try this a few days ago in person. It is sublime. I took a handful of shots with 50/1.4, 50/2 and, to my mind at least, it is unbeatable in terms of bokeh, colour, soul, aesthetics. It genuinely knocked me for six. There are some very, very nifty little tricks it has up its sleeve for those concerned about hi MP and shake/low light. And, finally, a decent battery and USB C charging. I can’t reveal any more but it is most certainly not a sidegrade to the 10. Rather a fairly substantial upgrade. As always with Leica, the question on my mind is the following - for significantly less than the price of the M11 body I could get a Sony A1 that outperforms it in every way except for soul and (IMO) colours. Passion vs technical perfection. What price that Leica feeling…? Personally, going a little slower and working a little harder is more rewarding to me but perhaps that’s because I don’t have the pressure of being a pro photographer with deadlines and bosses.
At least I have a month to think about it. Anticipation is a wonderful thing. "
"I took a handful of shots with 50/1.4, 50/2 and, to my mind at least, it is unbeatable in terms of bokeh, colour, soul, aesthetics."
----
Basically, the M11 camera improved bokeh, soul and aesthetics...enough bull for me.
Bokeh, soul (though I am not too familiar with that highly technical term) and aesthetics- all subjective and purely personal.
Given that they had access to a pre production sample and the resultant delirium makes perfect sense.
pmeheut wrote:
This is funny because people already thought that in the 70s and Leica even stopped building M because SLRs were better, no argument there.
And yet, here we are, almost half a century later still using rangefinders. So my guess would be that nostalgia alone is not enough to explain it. After all, people stopped using many kind of cameras and viewfinders over the years, even very prestigious or popular ones.
I for one do not shoot the same pictures when I use one of my SLR or mirrorless camera. And this is one of the reasons why I accept to pay Leica's crazy prices and use a camera without IBIS, AF, matrix metering, all things I find very convenient.
Of course there are preferences and tendencies. I was solely talking to capabilities. I mean, I realize that the stealth of the M series allows lots of "street photography" of the back of a guy in a hat on a street with really good rendering and a "leica glow" /s
pmeheut wrote:
This is funny because people already thought that in the 70s and Leica even stopped building M because SLRs were better, no argument there.
And yet, here we are, almost half a century later still using rangefinders. So my guess would be that nostalgia alone is not enough to explain it. After all, people stopped using many kind of cameras and viewfinders over the years, even very prestigious or popular ones.
I for one do not shoot the same pictures when I use one of my SLR or mirrorless camera. And this is one of the reasons why I accept to pay Leica's crazy prices and use a camera without IBIS, AF, matrix metering, all things I find very convenient.
"Had the opportunity to try this a few days ago in person. It is sublime. I took a handful of shots with 50/1.4, 50/2 and, to my mind at least, it is unbeatable in terms of bokeh, colour, soul, aesthetics. It genuinely knocked me for six. There are some very, very nifty little tricks it has up its sleeve for those concerned about hi MP and shake/low light. And, finally, a decent battery and USB C charging. I can’t reveal any more but it is most certainly not a sidegrade to the 10. Rather a fairly substantial upgrade. As always with Leica, the question on my mind is the following - for significantly less than the price of the M11 body I could get a Sony A1 that outperforms it in every way except for soul and (IMO) colours. Passion vs technical perfection. What price that Leica feeling…? Personally, going a little slower and working a little harder is more rewarding to me but perhaps that’s because I don’t have the pressure of being a pro photographer with deadlines and bosses."
AndrewNYC wrote:
I rest my case, nothing further your honor.
I do not agree with this leaker. To me, it is not about passion and so but about a tool I feel more comfortable with. Of course, we can like or even love our tools but if in a few years, I cannot use an M because my eyes are not up to it anymore, I'll switch to something else. I'll be nostalgic for a while maybe but that's all: I will not talk about the myth and so one.
"LeicaLeaker" wrote:
I took a handful of shots with 50/1.4, 50/2 and, to my mind at least, it is unbeatable in terms of bokeh, colour, soul, aesthetics. ... As always with Leica, the question on my mind is the following - for significantly less than the price of the M11 body I could get a Sony A1 that outperforms it in every way except for soul and (IMO) colours.
The 50 lux ASPH and 50 Cron 2 are some of Leica's best lenses not just for sharpness but for Color Index as well, stacking up with Schneider glass for least subtractive damage to color. Both lenses will resolve to ~100 megapixels as well. Looking forward to seeing the M-11 with APO-Telyt-M 135 and lux 90 as well, should be quite amazing.
It could well be that the combination of a higher resolution sensor along with an improved color filter array and Look-Up-Tables and color mapping have been finally adressed by Leica to go head to head with Hasselblad and Phase One for best color sensor. One can dream, at least. Also; they have the considerable resources of Sinar now for several years, so it's not unlikely some of the Sinar color science can be employed to Leica. Sinar seems to be in an induced hibernation, alas.
As for bokeh-aji and soul and Æsthetics; beauty is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it?
As an aside, the 'new' leica website is worse than the old...
pmeheut wrote:
I do not agree with this leaker. To me, it is not about passion and so but about a tool I feel more comfortable with. Of course, we can like or even love our tools but if in a few years, I cannot use an M because my eyes are not up to it anymore, I'll switch to something else. I'll be nostalgic for a while maybe but that's all: I will not talk about the myth and so one.
Same here.
It is sad to see so many reviewers appealing to emotional hyperboles.
I do think the newbie/leaker writes with an American style. 
