I agree that it’s going to need something special to entice me over my M10R. The new battery might be a dis-incentive as I’d need to replace my current stock (Leica batteries cost more than printer ink) and I’d have a mis-match with my M10M. But I don’t know what they could add that’s a big enough draw. Romours are the new EVF works on the M10 cameras, so that’s not it. IBIS? Highly unlikely in that body. Flippy screen? Not according to the photos. So maybe USBC charging? Internal storage? More resolution? Move the buttons to the right (and correct) side of the screen? Longer battery life? I don’t know if any of those are a good enough reason for me. The M10R is so good that Leica may have made it hard for themselves this time.
I expect BSI might be big news for the M11 along with Bluetooth compatibility with the Fotos Apps. 60 MPs will come with the Q2-like in-camera cropping ability too.
Lots of good comments. I was never really bothered by the baseplate, which I replace with the hand grip or the RRS Arca-style baseplate depending on the intended use. The M11 will have to have at least one amazing feature to persuade me that it's preferable to an M10-R (and a gimmicky variable resolution 60mp sensor is a negative since I strongly agree with Fred that 40mp is the sweet spot). In the absence of that compelling feature and if the new EVF does work with the various M10 models, it'll be an M10-R for me.
Dec 04, 2021 at 06:57 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
genji wrote:
Lots of good comments. I was never really bothered by the baseplate, which I replace with the hand grip or the RRS Arca-style baseplate depending on the intended use. The M11 will have to have at least one amazing feature to persuade me that it's preferable to an M10-R (and a gimmicky variable resolution 60mp sensor is a negative since I strongly agree with Fred that 40mp is the sweet spot). In the absence of that compelling feature and if the new EVF does work with the various M10 models, it'll be an M10-R for me.
I am just hoping the M11 drives the price down on the M10R. I would love to replace my M10 with an M10R and I hope the gap shrinks as a result of the M11. I hope the M11 is great, but for me that is for probably 5 years at least down the road when the M11 will be at a more reasonable price. I have never bought anything Leica new or close to new.
Steve Spencer wrote:
I am just hoping the M11 drives the price down on the M10R. I would love to replace my M10 with an M10R and I hope the gap shrinks as a result of the M11. I hope the M11 is great, but for me that is for probably 5 years at least down the road when the M11 will be at a more reasonable price. I have never bought anything Leica new or close to new.
Steve Spencer wrote:
I am just hoping the M11 drives the price down on the M10R. I would love to replace my M10 with an M10R and I hope the gap shrinks as a result of the M11. I hope the M11 is great, but for me that is for probably 5 years at least down the road when the M11 will be at a more reasonable price. I have never bought anything Leica new or close to new.
The M11 may drive the M10-R used pricing further down but considering the R sensor's advantage compared to the M10 and M10-P cameras, used prices at around $6600-$7200 do not seem excessive right now. M10-P bodies are selling for only about 1K less. That was my own personal move. I sold my M10-P for the R.
It's also possible that the M11 fails to draw much excitement while Leica set the price at ~10K. If that happens, the M10-R used prices could stabilize or even increase depending on the M11's availability and price.
It would be very smart for Leica to make the new Visoflex compatible with M10 series cameras as they will sell like hot-cakes even at ~$700+ price. Hopefully it will have a least 5.76m-Dot.
Fred Miranda wrote:
The M11 may drive the M10-R used pricing further down but considering the R sensor's advantage compared to the M10 and M10-P cameras, used prices at around $6600-$7200 do not seem excessive right now. M10-P bodies are selling for only about 1K less. That was my own personal move. I sold my M10-P for the R.
It's also possible that the M11 fails to draw much excitement while Leica set the price at ~10K. If that happens, the M10-R used prices could stabilize or even increase depending on the M11's availability and price.
It would be very smart for Leica to make the new Visoflex compatible with M10 series cameras as they will sell like hot-cakes even at ~$700+ price. Hopefully it will have a least 5.76m-Dot....Show more →
You are right it is not a sure thing the M10R prices will drop with the M11 and even if they drop it is not sure they will drop faster than M10 prices, which is what matters to me as an M10 owner.
For me, however, I would mostly want the M10R for shooting off a tripod and I can get really good capability for that with a Sony A7R III, and right now I can buy that camera, a Loxia 21, a Voigtlander 35 f/2 APO, and a Voigtlander 50 f/2 APO for the camera and use my Voigtlander 15 f/4.5 III, the Voigtlander 90 f/2.8 APO, and the Voigtlander 180 f/4 APO I own for a great tripod based kit. That kit is less money than upgrading to the M10R. I can use the Leica M10 for handheld shooting and that Sony kit for tripod based shooting. Even if I got the Leica M10R I would probably supplement my Leica M kit with the Voigtlander 50 f/2 APO (to select over my Leica M 50 lux Asph for tripod work) and the Voigtlander 35 f/2 APO (to select over my Voigtlander 35 f/1.7 for tripod work). So, I am having trouble convincing myself that I should spring for the M10R. I am sure I will in time, but I would be a lot more convinced if after selling my M10 I was only spending $2,000 or so rather than $3,000 to $3,500.
I am unlikely to do anything until summer, so it will be interesting to see how prices shake out. What is wonderful is having lots of choices right now.
It may not bother you, but it has no reason to exist. From an engineering and design perspective, it’s disadvantageous and only Fed by nostalgia
Fred Miranda wrote:
The battery is inserted ala Q and SL but how about the SD card? Would it have its own compartment?
I may be minority here but the current base plate never bothered me.
AndrewNYC wrote:
It may not bother you, but it has no reason to exist. From an engineering and design perspective, it’s disadvantageous and only Fed by nostalgia
You’re correct, of course. Nostalgia is neither valid nor useful but rather a pernicious form of wrongthink that must be ruthlessly suppressed or, better still, eliminated by the forces of progress.
Steve Spencer wrote:
You are right it is not a sure thing the M10R prices will drop with the M11 and even if they drop it is not sure they will drop faster than M10 prices, which is what matters to me as an M10 owner.
For me, however, I would mostly want the M10R for shooting off a tripod and I can get really good capability for that with a Sony A7R III, and right now I can buy that camera, a Loxia 21, a Voigtlander 35 f/2 APO, and a Voigtlander 50 f/2 APO for the camera and use my Voigtlander 15 f/4.5 III, the Voigtlander 90 f/2.8 APO, and the Voigtlander 180 f/4 APO I own for a great tripod based kit. That kit is less money than upgrading to the M10R. I can use the Leica M10 for handheld shooting and that Sony kit for tripod based shooting. Even if I got the Leica M10R I would probably supplement my Leica M kit with the Voigtlander 50 f/2 APO (to select over my Leica M 50 lux Asph for tripod work) and the Voigtlander 35 f/2 APO (to select over my Voigtlander 35 f/1.7 for tripod work). So, I am having trouble convincing myself that I should spring for the M10R. I am sure I will in time, but I would be a lot more convinced if after selling my M10 I was only spending $2,000 or so rather than $3,000 to $3,500.
I am unlikely to do anything until summer, so it will be interesting to see how prices shake out. What is wonderful is having lots of choices right now....Show more →
The problem with the above it that it is entirely logical, which flies directly in the face of how Leica purchases are made….
AndrewNYC wrote:
It may not bother you, but it has no reason to exist. From an engineering and design perspective, it’s disadvantageous and only Fed by nostalgia
I get your point Andrew, but by that logic, rangefinders themselves also have no reason to exist today but we still enjoy the process.
I'm not against this change but it's just a modification that would entice me to upgrade from what I'm currently shooting. Even if improves weather sealing, M lenses are not weather sealed so it's a moot point.
It looks like it will be the major cosmetic change.
The most valuable improvement to me would if Leica found a way of lengthening highlight fall off to match a medium format camera using film. I miss those long, subtle highlight tones.
Fred Miranda wrote:
I get your point Andrew, but by that logic, rangefinders themselves also have no reason to exist today but we still enjoy the process.
I'm not against this change but it's just a modification that would entice me to upgrade from what I'm currently shooting. Even if improves weather sealing, M lenses are not weather sealed so it's a moot point.
It looks like it will be the major cosmetic change.
That's the thing with Leica - only time will tell which camera is considered a "great" upgrade from earlier versions. Considered "great" are currently the M3, M6, and the M10-series IMO. The M 240 is still liked a lot but many dislike its bit more bulky body (not me but that's what many are saying). The M9 is a mixed bag - some love it, others dislike it. A rough rule of thumb is that there are about 1 to 2 less successful full frame rangefinder camera iterations after a big one - which is also subjective. With this rule in mind, the M11 might be not such a big hit - but we will see.
wolfloid wrote:
The most valuable improvement to me would if Leica found a way of lengthening highlight fall off to match a medium format camera using film. I miss those long, subtle highlight tones.
Likely not physically possible: the light registration on any digital sensor follows a linear slope whereas the film medium follows a double-S curve to register light (which makes the highlight reception a lot more sensitive than digital as you correctly said). Not sure if you can create something from information which does not exist with a digital sensor.
retrofocus wrote:
That's the thing with Leica - only time will tell which camera is considered a "great" upgrade from earlier versions. Considered "great" are currently the M3, M6, and the M10-series IMO. The M 240 is still liked a lot but many dislike its bit more bulky body (not me but that's what many are saying). The M9 is a mixed bag - some love it, others dislike it. A rough rule of thumb is that there are about 1 to 2 less successful full frame rangefinder camera iterations after a big one - which is also subjective. With this rule in mind, the M11 might be not such a big hit - but we will see. ...Show more →
Not disregard the IMO part, but the MP was hailed as a true Leica M with its return to a brass top plate. Personally, I prefer the M6's canted rewind, but the 50mm frames suck for both if you're more of a mid-distance shooter.
I don't believe that Leica will abandon the SD card in favor of the internal memory alone. However, when I look at the design of the new battery, I can well imagine that the relatively long wing on the side can definitely be used to cover an SD card slot underneath.
d.s. wrote:
Not disregard the IMO part, but the MP was hailed as a true Leica M with its return to a brass top plate. Personally, I prefer the M6's canted rewind, but the 50mm frames suck for both if you're more of a mid-distance shooter.
The MP is a bit outside the standard series, so is the MA. Both are still in production film cameras. The standard film M camera series stopped with the M7. Prices for used M6/M7 cameras currently skyrocket so high that they are getting close to the MP in new camera pricing. I bought my used M6 in 2016 for $1100 and my M7 as second one a year later for $1500. At the time, I would have never considered the MP no matter with which kind of bells and whistles it comes.
There really is no advantage to the rangefinder anymore. Any other modern camera is more capable at this point. There’s no argument there. Maybe, one could try to argue on size. But it’s a conspicuous out jade based on feelings and nostalgia and that’s what Leica needs to survive. We pixel peep and then use soft terms like “rendering” and what it to justify it, but it wouldn’t hold up to a blind test in many cases
Now I’ll hang up and wait for those m10R prices to fall
Fred Miranda wrote:
I get your point Andrew, but by that logic, rangefinders themselves also have no reason to exist today but we still enjoy the process.
I'm not against this change but it's just a modification that would entice me to upgrade from what I'm currently shooting. Even if improves weather sealing, M lenses are not weather sealed so it's a moot point.
It looks like it will be the major cosmetic change.
