LBJ2 wrote:
Not to worry. The M11 with " no buttons or dials " is not going to happen.
There have been comments that some thought there might be a touch screen only LCD on the back of the camera. But never was there any comment or rumors there would be a buttonless or dial-less M11.
There's a post over on L-Cam... from a member that claims to have fondled the M11. They suggest the buttons are still present, though somewhat refined (in a good way). Hearsay or not, that makes more sense to me. The current buttons don't seem quite M-like, coming from an MP. I suspect the new M11 is going to be a highly desirable, much more mature iteration of what has come before it.
Desmolicious wrote:
That dial is so simple it's genius. And it mimics the look of the old film Ms but with a real purpose - unlike that awful fake film advance lever that one of the M10 models had.
That fake film advance lever on the M10-D was as genius as the ISO dial. They way you held the camera was just like having a film M, literally no difference.
RustyBug wrote:
The other thing about having no buttons or dials (no tactile operation) ... would mean you'd have to be "looking at your camera" to change settings.
Rather than being able to make changes while surveying away from the camera, other people will more readily take notice of you poking around on your camera, as you are forced to look at the touchscreen to make adjustments. Kind of the antithesis of discrete ... for which the discrete aspect of the M is renowned.
Aperture is on the lens, ISO and shutter speed have their own dials. What is it someone needs to dive into the menus to do?
panos.v wrote:
That fake film advance lever on the M10-D was as genius as the ISO dial. They way you held the camera was just like having a film M, literally no difference.
I use film Ms all the time. And I hold my digital M the same way, w/o needing a fake film lever.
I don't put pressure on the film advance lever to steady the camera - that mechanically is a very bad idea for the advance mechanism of the camera.
With the M10's ISO dial - that has a real purpose. It allows you to see your ISO at a glance, change it in a moment, select between AUTO, MANUAL (where it picks the ISO based on your selection of aperture and shutter) and fixed ISO.
It is a real and superb improvement over the menu diving needed on the M240 and M9.
The fake film advance lever is just a 'hey look at me I'm using a film camera' attempt. Leica knew it would only appeal to basically the collector crowd - and good for them being able to make coin off it. And discontinued that 'feature' soon after.
If it was of value, they would have incorporated it across the line.
The best rumor I've read so far is the use of a ~60MP BSI sensor. That means it will likely be a tweaked version of the Sony A7R IV's sensor. Sigma already uses it on their fp L.
It was a great move when Leica started using Sony's 24MP BSI sensor on the SL2-S. Everyone seems to love it.
Dec 27, 2021 at 12:29 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
Fred Miranda wrote:
The best rumor I've read so far is the use of a ~60MP BSI sensor. That means it will likely be a tweaked version of the Sony A7R IV's sensor. Sigma already uses it on their fp L.
It was a great move when Leica started using Sony's 24MP BSI sensor on the SL2-S. Everyone seems to love it.
Sourcing sensors from Sony (for now at least) seems like a great move from Leica. I personally would have like to see a tweaked version of the 42 MP BSI sensor from the Sony A7r III in the M11. I think this is my favorite sensor that I have seen produced (especially for a rangefinder with its balanced performance), although the Sony/Nikon 45 MP BSI sensor in the Nikon D850 and Z7(II) is a close second. I think the ~60 MP BSI sensor from Sony would have been great in the 11MR for those who want the extra resolution. Oh well, any of these sensors would be a big step forward largely because high ISO performance will be better. One slight downside of the ~60MP sensor (at least as used in the Sony A7r IV) is that it isn't quite as good as the 42MP sensor at high ISO. It is still be a nice full stop improvement in DR at base ISO and a quarter to a fifth of a stop improvement at high ISO with greater resolution. It is just the 42MP BSI sensor would have provided about the same base ISO improvement and more like a half stop improvement at high ISO.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Sourcing sensors from Sony (for now at least) seems like a great move from Leica. I personally would have like to see a tweaked version of the 42 MP BSI sensor from the Sony A7r III in the M11. I think this is my favorite sensor that I have seen produced (especially for a rangefinder with its balanced performance), although the Sony/Nikon 45 MP BSI sensor in the Nikon D850 and Z7(II) is a close second. I think the ~60 MP BSI sensor from Sony would have been great in the 11MR for those who want the extra resolution. Oh well, any of these sensors would be a big step forward largely because high ISO performance will be better. One slight downside of the ~60MP sensor (at least as used in the Sony A7r IV) is that it isn't quite as good as the 42MP sensor at high ISO. It is still be a nice full stop improvement at base ISO and a quarter to a fifth of a stop improvement at high ISO with greater resolution. It is just the 42MP BSI sensor would have provided about the same base ISO improvement and more like a half stop improvement at high ISO....Show more →
I much prefer the M10R sensor to the A7R3. More malliable, especially in the shaodows and retains colour better as ISO climbs. I think the A7R3 has a good sensor but there's plenty of cameras that are just as good at that resolution (including the Z7 and SL2 for different reasons). They may as well stick with what they already have if they're using 42MP.
Gordon
Dec 27, 2021 at 03:36 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
flash wrote:
I much prefer the M10R sensor to the A7R3. More malliable, especially in the shaodows and retains colour better as ISO climbs. I think the A7R3 has a good sensor but there's plenty of cameras that are just as good at that resolution (including the Z7 and SL2 for different reasons). They may as well stick with what they already have if they're using 42MP.
Gordon
Well it depends what you want in the sensor. I agree that the Z7 sensor is better at base ISO, but at high ISO I find the A7r III sensor to be much better than the Z7 sensor (I have used both extensively). I haven't used the SL2 so I won't comment on that, but I would prefer the Z7 sensor for landscape shooting, but for all around shooting I would prefer the A7r III sensor. In my experience and for my rangefinder shooting I would appreciate the much better high ISO performance and I have not seen color problems with this sensor at high ISO. I haven't used the M10R yet either but I trust people like you that say it is a really good sensor, but it isn't a BSI sensor as I understand it so I would expect at least some improvement by moving to a BSI sensor at the same resolution. I also think they could just use the M10R sensor in the new M11 and that would be a good way to go, but I think it would be slightly better to use a BSI sensor even if the improvement is only a modest one. My major point is that I would prefer a 40ish MP sensor in the vanilla M11 with the price a bit lower, and then put the 60ish MP sensor in an M11R with the higher price tag. Making the vanilla M11 with a 60ish sensor and jacking the price up to M10R prices would definitely not be my preference. I would much prefer a 40ish MP vanilla M11 with a modest price increase (say 10 to 15 percent) over the vanilla M10.
Anyone knows if there is official words that the M11 has a different rangefinder design compared to M10 series? I got the M11 recently. It focuses more accurately than my M10 or M10R on all 4 of my lenses. It probably just within normal tolerance of different M bodies.
gordec wrote:
Anyone knows if there is official words that the M11 has a different rangefinder design compared to M10 series? I got the M11 recently. It focuses more accurately than my M10 or M10R on all 4 of my lenses. It probably just within normal tolerance of different M bodies.
I haven't noticed any difference in focusing between my M10-P and my M11. All of my lenses seem to be very accurate with all of my lenses, both Leica and Voigtlander. But, I am just learning RF focusing so may be missing nuances in such things.
My issues with sharpness seem to come primarily from camera shake caused by Essential Tremors. I long for an M11 with IBIS and it would be an instant buy for me. I can shoot the same focal length lenses on my A1 with IBIS at least 3 stops slower in shutter speed than I can with my M11. This of course means I can use 3 stops lower ISO, which results in noticeable improvement in IQ in many circumstances.
