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Archive 2008 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Comm...

RedWhiteandRed
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p.15 #1 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony

Steve Spencer wrote:
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers.

That is a good one - we are all yoked by the good green earth - nothing more and nothing less. Denying anyone is denying all.

Apr 14, 2008 at 01:48 PM

gmacklem
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p.15 #2 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony

RedWhiteandRed wrote:
Not at all. What is wrong is that a business would deny service to anyone on the basis of prejudice and discrimination.

That some people think there is a god and run from chapter to verse in one text or another is immaterial save for their choosing the verses that support discrimination.

Come now, you have been bashing Christianity in nearly every post as being discriminatory. Yet you make your own discriminatory remarks. Now you try to deny it, but you have already shown your true colors (pardon the pun). You are as guilty as the ones you condemn, you just don't want to admit it.

Apr 14, 2008 at 01:51 PM

DragonflyDM
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p.15 #3 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony

But the Bible quotes Jesus often as saying that no one should be the one to judge anyone. Not to judge the adulterous women, or anyone. In fact, read Matthews and you will see that it says clearly that the judgments you hold against other people are the judgments and measuring sticks that will be held against you and that those who judge are hypocrites.

If you want to go through Biblical sins, you will have a lot of conflicts and problems. It IS NOT a sin to drink or be drunk. It IS a sin to laugh at your father if he is drunk (read about Noah).

It IS NOT a sin to sleep with all three of your daughters if you think you are the last people on the planet and you are drunk. It IS NOT a sin to get your dad drunk and trick him to get you pregnant if you think it is for a good cause. (read the story of Lot)

So we already have a VERY clear situation when you should not be able to justify shooting people's weddings-- if the kids are going to laugh at their dad when he is drunk. You also have a VERY clear situation when you should forgive people.

The difference between the two is intention. WHEN Noah's children laughed at Noah, they did it out of malice. When Lots children slept with their father they did it out of noble good intentions.

Jesus says that it isn't the sleeping with your neighbor's wife that is the sin, but the lustful desire to cheat on with his wife.

The actual greek is "Thou shalt not murder" not "Thou shall not kill." Killing is not a sin, but killing for revenge and hatred is. This allows for killing necessary for the state or by accident to be forgiven.

Sin is about intention.

So unless gay people are being gay to spite God, then you have to assume it is because they are gay because they are sincere in their love. It is not a sin then, even by a Christians' true standard. They should be treated by Christians as someone who has not yet fully understood the grace of God.

If you would shoot the wedding of an agnostic, or an aethiest, because you feel that they are just lost and haven't found that revealed word of Jesus--- then you should shoot a gay couples wedding.

If you don't it is only because you are prejudiced, not because you are Christian.

gmacklem wrote:
You obviously haven't been reading my posts or you would see that I am working on it as well. The difference between me and RWR, is I am willing to discuss it where RWR constantly tries to provoke an argument.

As for discerning (judging) sin, I don't have to do that as God has laid that out for me. What we as Christians should be doing is determing when we are accomplices (stumbling blocks) and when we are not. For example, drinking is not a sin, going out bar hopping with an alcholic is since you are being a stumbling block.

Edited by DragonflyDM on Apr 14, 2008 at 01:57 PM GMT

Edited on Apr 14, 2008 at 01:57 PM

Apr 14, 2008 at 01:54 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.15 #4 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony

RedWhiteandRed wrote:
That is a good one - we are all yoked by the good green earth - nothing more and nothing less. Denying anyone is denying all.

Hi Red,

I agree that we are all connected in a sense from being on the earth, but perhaps the metaphor that is being used in this passage is a bit lost in the modern world. The metaphor is to a team of oxen that are meant to be pulling together and working for the same goals. An unequal team of oxen does a terrible job pulling anything or doing any work--one pulling in one direction and one pulling in the other. I think it would be pretty hard to claim that we are yoked together in the sense that we are all pulling in the same direction and working toward the same goals.

Best wishes,

Steve

Apr 14, 2008 at 01:56 PM

gmacklem
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p.15 #5 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony

DragonflyDM wrote:
But the Bible quotes Jesus often as saying that no one should be the one to judge anyone. Not to judge the adulterous women, or anyone. In fact, read Matthews and you will see that it says clearly that the judgments you hold against other people are the judgments and measuring sticks that will be held against you and that those who judge are hypocrites.

Ah, this post is exactly what I was getting at with RWR, but he chose to ignore it.

Anyway, it is ok to judge sin but not sinners. While I can judge something as a sin, I cannot say that the sinner is condemned. That is God's call not mine. That is the heart of the issue here. Christians don't want to participate in a sin. What I am trying to do and hopefully others here as well, is determine if the shooting of a gay wedding constitutes participation or not. If not, then shoot away.

Apr 14, 2008 at 01:59 PM

DragonflyDM
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p.15 #6 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony

But this is MY point. You are selectively choose which sins are the ones worth not participating with and which you can ignore. When I hear that you would not shoot a wedding that had other sins in them (say a non-religious ceremony which is condoning people mating without the blessings of God, or someone who has a wedding on a Sunday, the Sabbath, etc.) then I would say OK.

The reality is that there are a myriad of other sins that you would just give a free pass to, because they do not offend YOU. You pass judgment on what sins are worth your time and which aren't.

Christianity is a buffet where Christians pick up and put down which sins they feel are really important and which are just outdated traditions of history.

gmacklem wrote:
Ah, this post is exactly what I was getting at with RWR, but he chose to ignore it.

Anyway, it is ok to judge sin but not sinners. While I can judge something as a sin, I cannot say that the sinner is condemned. That is God's call not mine. That is the heart of the issue here. Christians don't want to participate in a sin. What I am trying to do and hopefully others here as well, is determine if the shooting of a gay wedding constitutes participation or not. If not, then shoot away.

Apr 14, 2008 at 02:08 PM

gmacklem
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p.15 #7 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony

DragonflyDM wrote:
But this is MY point. You are selectively choose which sins are the ones worth not participating with and which you can ignore. When I hear that you would not shoot a wedding that had other sins in them (say a non-religious ceremony which is condoning people mating without the blessings of God, or someone who has a wedding on a Sunday, the Sabbath, etc.) then I would say OK.

The reality is that there are a myriad of other sins that you would just give a free pass to, because they do not offend YOU. You pass judgment on what...Show more →

This most definitely goes on, but to a true Christian, they should be constantly seeking out the right thing to do. I am sure many here are and many here aren't. We have a tendency to get stuck at a level of maturity as Christians. I am trying to avoid that. I am willing to admit I don't know it all and if someone can convince me I am wrong I will admit it. Thanks to Steve and now you, I am coming around on this issue and seeing things differently. Now it may take a little more time as nobody should just change their mind everytime they are confronted. They should change their mind after careful consideration, which is what I am doing.

Apr 14, 2008 at 02:15 PM

Ben Horne
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p.15 #8 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony

gmacklem wrote:
Why do you keep spouting this stuff? Obviously you are not a Christian so you do not believe in sin.

I have several friends who are gay. One of which is only a year older than myself. I remember very well playing at his house as young children, and he was simply wired differently from birth. He was not interested in the same things as his brothers who were straight (sports, bikes, etc). Of course I did not know that he would end up being gay as we were still young (though we did play house a lot), but that is the road he took as he grew up. His upbringing was the exact same as his brothers, but that is the way he was since birth.

If your argument is that his life is in sin because that is how his brain was wired at birth, then why was he created by God if he is apparently (according to some christians) doomed to hell? The bible was written by man in a time when there was not much understanding over science and biology. Gay people were seen as aberrations (chromatic aberrations if you want to be humorous), and anything people could not understand was seen as evil or a sin. If modern christianity wants to be seen with more respect, it needs to adapt to what modern man now knows about science and the universe.

I have friends who adamantly believe that there were NEVER dinosaurs on this planet, and the bones were merely placed there by god to make us wonder. They also believe that the earth is truly just 4 thousand years old despite all the evidence that it is billions of years old. Heck, they just found a tree that is about 8 thousand years old.

I am one to look at the intentions of a person, and make determinations based on that. Do good things, and good things will happen to you in return. Be kind to other people, and be courteous.

Edited by Ben Horne on Apr 14, 2008 at 07:23 PM GMT

Edited on Apr 14, 2008 at 02:23 PM

Apr 14, 2008 at 02:21 PM

elader
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p.15 #9 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony

The federal government, right or wrong, have listed certain people/practices who by law cannot be discriminated against - race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, disabled. The government doesn't care what your reason is, what your opinion is, only whether you are guilty or not of discrimination. Now if you don't like hairy women with body odor, or Red Sox fans, go ahead and discriminate all you want.

It's not about who believes they are 'right' and the judge didn't decide whose beliefs were more relevant, just whether a law was broken.

Apr 14, 2008 at 02:23 PM

RedWhiteandRed
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p.15 #10 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony

gmacklem wrote:
Come now, you have been bashing Christianity in nearly every post as being discriminatory. Yet you make your own discriminatory remarks. Now you try to deny it, but you have already shown your true colors (pardon the pun). You are as guilty as the ones you condemn, you just don't want to admit it.

No, that is wrong. I know that there is no god and that when the end comes - it is the end.

That said - I never discriminate - anyone that asks me to perform a service within my purview - I do it. No matter where the faith is placed. Should the matter ever come up I tell the folk that I am a secularist.

And, professing the absence of any god is no different than the bible thumping/quoting/ranting that is fairly normal practice on this forum.

What is important is that when someone shows at your door looking for a service or information about a service that they all be treated without prejudice and their request met without bias to creed, denomination or any of a thousand other things we find to base prejudice.

Apr 14, 2008 at 02:31 PM

RedWhiteandRed
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p.15 #11 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony

elader wrote:
The federal government, right or wrong, have listed certain people/practices who by law cannot be discriminated against - race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, disabled. The government doesn't care what your reason is, what your opinion is, only whether you are guilty or not of discrimination. Now if you don't like hairy women with body odor, or Red Sox fans, go ahead and discriminate all you want.

It's not about who believes they are 'right' and the judge didn't decide whose beliefs were more relevant, just whether a law was broken.

Elader - you are 100% correct.

Apr 14, 2008 at 02:32 PM

gmacklem
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p.15 #12 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony

Ben Horne wrote:
I have several friends who are gay. One of which is only a year older than myself. I remember very well playing at his house as young children, and he was simply wired differently from birth. He was not interested in the same things as his brothers who were straight (sports, bikes, etc). Of course I did not know that he would end up being gay as we were still young (though we did play house a lot), but that is the road he took as he grew up. His upbringing was the exact same as his brothers, but...Show more →

I have no answer for nurture vs. nature questions. I do believe that the bible is the inspired word of God, using man as his pen so to speak. Surely a God that can create the universe and all that is in it can get a single book written the way he wants it.

Ben Horne wrote:
If modern christianity wants to be seen with more respect, it needs to adapt to what modern man now knows about science and the universe.

It isn't Christianity that should adapt to man or time, but the other way around. As mentioned above, an all knowing God knew the future when the bible was written and it applies as much today as it did when it was written.

Ben Horne wrote:
I have friends who adamantly believe that there were NEVER dinosaurs on this planet, and the bones were merely placed there by god to make us wonder. They also believe that the earth is truly just 4 thousand years old despite all the evidence that it is billions of years old. Heck, they just found a tree that is about 8 thousand years old.

I don't doubt the existence of anything in the fossil record. I don't know how it all ties in, but I don't doubt it. There isn't anything in bible, in my understanding anyway, that would rule out dinosaurs. What if the world wasn't developed in 7 literal days but 7 timeframes? We will probably get the answers when we get to heavan. Just think what history class will be like!

Ben Horne wrote:
I am one to look at the intentions of a person, and make determinations based on that. Do good things, and good things will happen to you in return. Be kind to other people, and be courteous.

This sounds like karma, which is another discussion.

Apr 14, 2008 at 02:35 PM

gmacklem
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p.15 #13 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony

RedWhiteandRed wrote:
Elader - you are 100% correct.

This is not entirely right. This case is a conflict of freedom of religion and anti-discrimination laws. They ruled one way on this, but may very rule the other way next time.

Don't think conflicts in the laws exist? Just check out the abortion law. No matter what your belief is on this issue, you have to admit there is conflicting laws on the matter. A woman can have an abortion and it isn't a crime of any kind. A man can cause a woman to have a miscarriage and it is murder. Yet Roe v. Wade says the killing of a fetus is not murder.

So thump the law book all you want, it is far from perfect. Besides, it used to be legal to discriminate. What makes you think all the laws on the books today are "right"?

Edited on Apr 14, 2008 at 02:40 PM

Apr 14, 2008 at 02:39 PM

butchM
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p.15 #14 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony

RedWhiteandRed wrote:

What is important is that when someone shows at your door looking for a service or information about a service that they all be treated without prejudice and their request met without bias to creed, denomination or any of a thousand other things we find to base prejudice.

So Red ... you would then contract to photograph the local KKK convention without reservation or bias and provide them with product that would further their efforts and goals?

After all, we wouldn't want to discriminate against fat bald men with dogs, would we?

Apr 14, 2008 at 02:41 PM

RedWhiteandRed
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p.15 #15 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony

butchM wrote:
So Red ... you would then contract to photograph the local KKK convention without reservation or bias and provide them with product that would further their efforts and goals?

After all, we wouldn't want to discriminate against fat bald men with dogs, would we?

I would take their money and have in the past photographed many KKK, Hell's Angels - stuff like that.

Though - as my editors know - it is what it is and you are pretty much gonna wind up looking like you are.

Edited on Apr 14, 2008 at 02:44 PM

Apr 14, 2008 at 02:43 PM

DragonflyDM
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p.15 #16 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony

Well, I am the worst person to talk about this stuff. I went to a Christian College for a few years and studied to be a Catholic as an adult-- but then decided that I couldn't (in good conscience) become a Christian. I would be the hypocrite.

I have never met a Christian that didn't have a portion of the Bible they weren't willing to excuse because it didn't match their own belief system to some degree. I have met too many Christians that will read one passage of the Bible and say that it should be followed word-for-word and then pick a different part of the Bible and justify it as just part of the ancient society and shouldn't be followed because it didn't apply anymore.

The world was either made in six days or it wasn't. All the rules are to be followed exactly or they are all allusory and should be weighed and adjusted as history and society changes.

gmacklem wrote:
This most definitely goes on, but to a true Christian, they should be constantly seeking out the right thing to do. I am sure many here are and many here aren't. We have a tendency to get stuck at a level of maturity as Christians. I am trying to avoid that. I am willing to admit I don't know it all and if someone can convince me I am wrong I will admit it. Thanks to Steve and now you, I am coming around on this issue and seeing things differently. Now it may take a little more time as...Show more →

Apr 14, 2008 at 02:45 PM

John Power
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p.15 #17 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony

Hey, leave the Red Sox out of it Elader.

Obviously lots of opinions on this and who is to say who is right or wrong or even if there is a right or wrong. I just resent Government intrusion in private matters no matter how nobel the intention. I also distinguish between the detestable treatment that has been visited upon the Negro race in this country (to use the most obvious example) for so many years and a refusal to work for a homosexual couple based upon personal beliefs. In my opinion that is comparing apples to oranges and the "oh its just a matter of degree" argument just doesn't cut it with me and many others.

Apr 14, 2008 at 02:46 PM

butchM
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p.15 #18 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony

RedWhiteandRed wrote:

Though - as my editors know -

I wasn't speaking of editorial coverage .... as in the case that began this thread, but private photographic services say for an advertising campaign for the group. It's one thing to cover an event for editorial or news coverage publication, quite another to be a party to promoting the cause.

Apr 14, 2008 at 02:48 PM