p.3 #2 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
gmacklem wrote:
Red, you seem to have quite the dislike for Christians.
Not particularly. I find the hypocrisy and concerted effort to convert the world disturbing. This I dislike deeply. That action is unfortunate. The discrimination is unwarranted.
I do not permit my distaste for anyone embedded in religious delusion to morph into discrimination.
The horrific behavior in the name of self-unction has to be challenged at every turn. There is nothing more destructive than religion.
p.3 #3 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
tomKphoto wrote:
Folks, really, calm down. This is a clear case of the business owner not knowing the laws of their own state.
If you don't like the news, go out and make some of your own.
I have to disagree here. The news is that Christians are not free to practice there religion; which just happens to be a constitutional right.
What if they lied about their availability and got caught in the lie? They quite likely would be in the same position they are now. Maybe worse since they lied yet profess to be Christian. So they did the Christian thing and didn't lie.
p.3 #5 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
gmacklem wrote:
I have to disagree here. The news is that Christians are not free to practice there religion; which just happens to be a constitutional right.
No, the news is that a business discriminated against customers who wished to hire them - or were considering hiring them. The business ran that christian flag up the pole as their justification.
Had they not discriminated - there would be no issue.
p.3 #6 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
RedWhiteandRed wrote:
Not particularly. I find the hypocrisy and concerted effort to convert the world disturbing. This I dislike deeply. That action is unfortunate. The discrimination is unwarranted.
I do not permit my distaste for anyone embedded in religious delusion to morph into discrimination.
The horrific behavior in the name of self-unction has to be challenged at every turn. There is nothing more destructive than religion.
Your last sentence seems to contradict your first sentence and second paragraph.
Actually, Chrisitanity is a choice, not something that can be forced upon you so you have nothing to fear. Look at it this way, Christians feel that the bible is true and want to let everyone know so they don't burn for eternity. Their need to tell others is because they don't want to see anyone suffer for eternity. So you have distaste for people that are only doing what they are because they care about others. Odd wouldn't you say?
p.3 #7 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
RedWhiteandRed wrote:
No, the news is that a business discriminated against customers who wished to hire them - or were considering hiring them. The business ran that christian flag up the pole as their justification.
Had they not discriminated - there would be no issue.
As compared to the couple running their beliefs up the flag pole? After all, they are the ones that made it a public matter and went to the courts.
Edited by gmacklem on Apr 11, 2008 at 10:01 PM GMT
Edited on Apr 11, 2008 at 10:01 PM
Apr 11, 2008 at 10:00 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #8 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
As a Christian I think the Christian photographers need to do some soul searching. As Christians we are commanded to love our neighbors. How are these photographers showing love by refusing to provide these two people a service they provide to others? Some might say they are showing love by telling the couples their actions are wrong, but they could still shoot the wedding and tell the couple respectfully that they do not believe it was right for them to marry. This expression of their beliefs would never be judged as discrimination. The photographers have the right to express their beliefs and I don't see anyone questioning that here. What they are being told it seems is that they do not have a right to deny some people a service that they provide to others. I just don't know how people can say they are showing love by denying a service to others that want that service. Wouldn't they be providing a stronger Christian witness by taking the pictures and doing a terrific job, treating the couple with respect and kindness, and selling the services for a fair wage? They could still express their religious beliefs, and provide a quality professional service.
I also wonder why this "Christian" couple is denying service to this particular couple. I realize that they probably believe that two women should not be married, but if they read their Bibles they should understand that marriage between Christians and non-Christians is also forbidden. Do they deny their services to a heterosexual couple only one of whom is a Christian marry?
Sure these photographers can and should be able to express their beliefs to others. As Christians they should feel a need to give an account of their faith, but as Christians I think they should be much more concerned with following God's command to love their neighbor than being concerned with whether they are being persecuted. When Christians are worried that they are being persecuted they should first ask themselves whether their actions are wrong (i.e., sinful). Christians of all people should realize that they have a massive tendency toward sin, and should recognize that when they are sanctioned by the government this might be proper discipline for their sin. If it is proper discipline, the Christian response is repentance, not a law suit. In this case, my view, is that the government is properly disciplining them for selective and capricious denial of their services.
Edited by Steve Spencer on Apr 11, 2008 at 10:06 PM GMT
p.3 #9 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
> What if they lied about their availability and got caught in the lie? They quite likely would be in the same position they are now. Maybe worse since they lied yet profess to be Christian. So they did the Christian thing and didn't lie.
Very difficult to prove in litigation. Could easily be excused as oversight, not blatant discrimination.
So they did the Christian thing and didn't lie. In doing so they violated state code. If you don't want to play by the rules, don't play ... or change the rules.
p.3 #10 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Steve Spencer wrote:
As a Christian I think the Christian photographers need to do some soul searching. As Christians we are commanded to love our neighbors. How are these photographers showing love by refusing to provide these two people a service they provide to others?.
But this is your belief. Their belief may be that by doing the wedding they are condoning the lifestyle. Who is right? I don't actually know. I do know it isn't up to the courts to decide.
p.3 #13 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Saad Syed wrote:
Lesbian is not a race, it's more of a choice regarding lifestyle and sexuality. However, some people have claimed to have been born homosexual. ::shrug::
Moreover, this is about morals and religious values. The Christian photographers have morals where they see the ACT of homosexual practice as bad or disagreeable. There is no ACT of being African American or Latino.
There is something that these two women are doing that these photographers do not agree with. These days, we paint everything with a large brush of political correctness and assume everything is racism.
If there is a potential client that you find out sells drugs or eats too many chocolate snicker bars or uses foul language or tickles you in a way you don't like to be tickled... and if any of these actions are against your values, beliefs, and religion... then by all means, you should have the right to deny service.
There are restaurants that don't offer service if you don't have a shirt and shoes. There are plenty of crazies that can walk in barefoot, get denied service, and then sue for discrimination because not wearing shoes is part of their no name religion. This day and age, they might actually win.
Lastly, EVERYONE has beliefs. The lesbian couple BELIEVES what they are doing is right and the Christian photographers are wrong. The Christian photographers BELIEVE what the couple is doing is wrong and that they are right to deny service. It's all about beliefs. So now, the court has to literally sit there and JUDGE whose BELIEFS are more significant and correct.
p.3 #14 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
gmacklem wrote:
As compared to the couple running their beliefs up the flag pole? After all, they are the ones that made it a public matter and went to the courts.
No, that is the expectation of society and the law. Let the law and the court be the recourse for wrongs/torts. When one resorts to taking things into their own hands - that is what escalates things in a bad manner.
p.3 #16 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
RedWhiteandRed wrote:
No, that is the expectation of society and the law. Let the law and the court be the recourse for wrongs/torts. When one resorts to taking things into their own hands - that is what escalates things in a bad manner.
So Rosa Parks was wrong and shouldn't have done what she did? Maybe some people don't mind standing up for what they believe even if it has a cost?
p.3 #17 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Steve Spencer wrote:
(a lot of good stuff edited for brevity) In this case, my view, is that the government is properly disciplining them for selective and capricious denial of their services.
Edited by Steve Spencer on Apr 11, 2008 at 10:06 PM GMT
Excellent point. And, a paraphrase of a great muslim sign I once saw at a Provincetown restaurant - "be good to man and god will be good to you."
p.3 #18 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Sam Hassas wrote:
Lesbian is not a race, it's more of a choice regarding lifestyle and sexuality. However, some people have claimed to have been born homosexual. ::shrug::
Agreed. Very well said, Syed,
This is empirically wrong.
Apr 11, 2008 at 10:13 PM
hassy501 Offline • • • • [X]
p.3 #19 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
p.3 #20 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
RedWhiteandRed wrote:
Excellent point. And, a paraphrase of a great muslim sign I once saw at a Provincetown restaurant - "be good to man and god will be good to you."
But Christianity teaches you do not enter heaven based on works.
But why are you so quick to accept a Muslim teaching but have distate for Christianity? Does Christianity not have plenty of good teachings? Love thy neighbor as thy self, don't steal, don't covet, etc.
