fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
FM Forum Rules
Wedding Resource List
  

FM Forums | Wedding Photographer | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              15              17       18       end
  

Archive 2008 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Comm...

  
 
Steve Spencer
Online
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.16 #1 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony


FYI

I did a quick google search and it is easy to find the website of the photographer in question. Her website is:

http://www.elanephotography.com/

With regard to whether she just shoots weddings. It is clear that she lists other services including engagements, portraits, and free lance.

With regard to whether it would make sense to say she participates in ceremonies that she shoots, she describes the way she shoots at an event as:

"I take the approach of a silent observer--clicking on moments that a fresh, real and unstaged. The name has gone from candid to photojournalistic."

I have made my assessment of this clear, but I can't see how someone shooting in this way could be considered a participant in the ceremony, but maybe I am being biased here.

The photos on the site look very nice, IMO.




Edited on Apr 14, 2008 at 03:07 PM



Apr 14, 2008 at 03:01 PM
A.Y.
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.16 #2 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony


Scientists studying identical twins with different sexual orientation found that fetuses in the same womb don’t always receive the same amount of nutrients and hormones, hence easily observable differences in birth weight and sizes. Almost all identical twins with different sexual orientation told researchers that they knew their siblings were different from an early age, way before children even know anything about “choosing a lifestyle”. Countless studies have shown that reducing certain hormones in lab animals can also affect their sexual orientation.

Scientists studying what cause a larger number of children born in war zones to be gays found that mothers under a lot of stress tend to produce less hormones the fetuses need than mothers who are not.

Many people of faith do believe in these studies, but many simply ignore them all, insisting that it is a choice not how they were born.

Under the law, a person is innocent until proven guilty, but many hide behind religion, proclaiming somebody an abomination without ever giving fellow human beings who are different any benefit of the doubt what so ever.

Edited on Apr 14, 2008 at 03:14 PM



Apr 14, 2008 at 03:11 PM
adamp88
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.16 #3 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony


I just want to say that I really admire your argument and the way you're putting it forth, Dragonfly. Well said, and I agree wholeheartedly.


Apr 14, 2008 at 03:29 PM
saturnkk
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.16 #4 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony


Just curious, would anyone here actually think that it would be okay if a lesbian couple walked into a coffee shop and were told that they would not get service because they are lesbians or asked to leave?

If this isn't okay (and our government and common sense say it isn't) why would it be okay for certain services to do this?

Edited on Apr 14, 2008 at 04:02 PM



Apr 14, 2008 at 04:02 PM
tomKphoto
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.16 #5 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony


but if Gay marriages aren't recognized by the State Of New Mexico what the couple asked for wasn't Wedding Photography - it was event photography. Does Elaine Photography do event work for one and all? (i don't know)



Apr 14, 2008 at 04:09 PM
Patrick Elliott
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.16 #6 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony


DragonflyDM wrote:
OK... one of the problems I have having with this conversation is the "I won't do it because it is a sin." That is a slippery slope.

Do you refuse to shoot weddings for people who don't talk to their parents? ("Those shalt honor thy mother and father")

Do you refuse to shoot jewish weddings or a denominational other than yours? (Thou shalt have no other God before me)

Do you refuse to shoot weddings of people who have illegal cable? (Thou shalt not steal)

Do you refuse to shoot a wedding if the B&G swear a lot (Thou shalt not take the
...Show more

The fundamental flaw in this argument is that the photographers did not say that they would not photograph anyone who had comitted sin, but that they would not photograph a commitment ceremony.

The Christian's argument for this is based upon the Word of God. In God's Word, we read that God, not man, created the marriage union. Since He created it, He sets the rules. God created the marriage union to be between a man and a woman. This standard is followed throughout the Bible, Old and New Testament.

Your association of the types of sins you listed falls short due to the fact that heterosexuals who are in sin can repent and be forgiven, and their marriages can be blessed by God. However, two homosexuals (male or female) who enter into a commitment ceremony cannot have God's blessings, even if they were to get saved, because if they got saved, they would have to end that relationship.

That is the fundamental point here. They will not photograph something that God does not endorse.

Furthermore, for those who want to argue what the law says, New Mexico law does not recognize gay marriage. If the couple photographs weddings, they did not discriminate based on God's Word, or the law, because neither (God or NM law) recognize it.

Patrick



Apr 14, 2008 at 04:38 PM
Patrick Elliott
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.16 #7 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony


DragonflyDM wrote:
But the Bible quotes Jesus often as saying that no one should be the one to judge anyone. Not to judge the adulterous women, or anyone. In fact, read Matthews and you will see that it says clearly that the judgments you hold against other people are the judgments and measuring sticks that will be held against you and that those who judge are hypocrites.


You have to understand the context. The judgement you refer to in Matthew refers to judging other people for something while you are doing the same thing yourself. That is hypocrisy. However, John 7:24 tells us to judge righteous judgement. Also, in 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 Pauls exhorts the saints to judge matters in this life. So, according to the Bible, we have the right to judge according to His Word.

If you want to go through Biblical sins, you will have a lot of conflicts and problems. It IS NOT a sin to drink or be drunk. It IS a sin to laugh at your father if he is drunk (read about Noah).

Ephesians 5:18 And don't be drunk with wine, in excess, but be filled with the Spirit of God.

It IS NOT a sin to sleep with all three of your daughters if you think you are the last people on the planet and you are drunk. It IS NOT a sin to get your dad drunk and trick him to get you pregnant if you think it is for a good cause. (read the story of Lot)

Just because these stories are listed in God's Word does not mean He approves of their actions. A good cause does not justify sinful actions.

So we already have a VERY clear situation when you should not be able to justify shooting people's weddings-- if the kids are going to laugh at their dad when he is drunk. You also have a VERY clear situation when you should forgive people.



The difference between the two is intention. WHEN Noah's children laughed at Noah, they did it out of malice. When Lots children slept with their father they did it out of noble good intentions.

Good intentions do not get you in right standing with God. Only Jesus does.

Jesus says that it isn't the sleeping with your neighbor's wife that is the sin, but the lustful desire to cheat on with his wife.

Screeeeeeeeeech (me hitting the brakes)! No, Jesus was elaborating on the liberal pharisees of His day that said unless you physically slept with another woman, everything was okay. Jesus gave a much stricter interpretation of their law, which said it wasn't just the physical act, but willfully thinking about it was sin, as well.

The actual greek is "Thou shalt not murder" not "Thou shall not kill." Killing is not a sin, but killing for revenge and hatred is. This allows for killing necessary for the state or by accident to be forgiven.

No problem here!

Sin is about intention.

Sin is not just about intention, it also involves the act itself.

So unless gay people are being gay to spite God, then you have to assume it is because they are gay because they are sincere in their love. It is not a sin then, even by a Christians' true standard. They should be treated by Christians as someone who has not yet fully understood the grace of God.

Assumptions can be a dangerous thing. Just because they may be sincere in their love, doesn't bring God's blessing or approval. People can be sincerely wrong. It is a sin, based on God's true standard.

If you would shoot the wedding of an agnostic, or an aethiest, because you feel that they are just lost and haven't found that revealed word of Jesus--- then you should shoot a gay couples wedding.

Not true. As I stated in a previous post, I will not be involved in a commitment ceremony that God does not endorse or approve of. (NM law does not endorse or recognize it either).

If you don't it is only because you are prejudiced, not because you are Christian.

Well, you are half right: prejudiced, no; Christian, absolutely!!!

Patrick



Edited on Apr 14, 2008 at 05:08 PM



Apr 14, 2008 at 05:02 PM
tomKphoto
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.16 #8 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony


don't these threads lock out after a certain number of posts? I thought it was 200


Apr 14, 2008 at 05:24 PM
Patrick Elliott
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.16 #9 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony


Ben Horne wrote:

I have several friends who are gay. One of which is only a year older than myself. I remember very well playing at his house as young children, and he was simply wired differently from birth. He was not interested in the same things as his brothers who were straight (sports, bikes, etc). Of course I did not know that he would end up being gay as we were still young (though we did play house a lot), but that is the road he took as he grew up. His upbringing was the exact same as his brothers, but that is the way he was since birth.

If your argument is that his life is in sin because that is how his brain was wired at birth, then why was he created by God if he is apparently (according to some christians) doomed to hell? The bible was written by man in a time when there was not much understanding over science and biology. Gay people were seen as aberrations (chromatic aberrations if you want to be humorous), and anything people could not understand was seen as evil or a sin. If modern christianity wants to be seen with more respect, it needs to adapt to what modern man now knows about science and the universe.

I have friends who adamantly believe that there were NEVER dinosaurs on this planet, and the bones were merely placed there by god to make us wonder. They also believe that the earth is truly just 4 thousand years old despite all the evidence that it is billions of years old. Heck, they just found a tree that is about 8 thousand years old.


Homosexuality has never been proven to be linked to genetics (birth) by "scientists" no matter how determined they have been. Furthermore, if it were genetic, how can one explain studies of identical twins, one gay, one straight. If if was genetic, they would either both be gay or straight, since they carry the same DNA.

Christianity needs to adapt to what modern man knows about science and the universe? Ha Ha!! Science can't really be set in stone, because with increased knowledge, science has to be updated, and sometimes completely changed. (Ex. According to scientists, how many planets are in our universe?; According to scientists, is the earth warming, or not?; etc.)

Is all science wrong? No. I say this because I am a scientist (geologist). Is all science right? No. I say this because I am a scientist. I have seen both the wrong and the right that science has offered.

Patrick
Minister, Scientist, Photographer




Edited on Apr 14, 2008 at 05:40 PM



Apr 14, 2008 at 05:35 PM
RedWhiteandRed
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.16 #10 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony


icecreamboy wrote:
Christianity needs to adapt to what modern man knows about science and the universe? Ha Ha!! Science can't really be set in stone, because with increased knowledge, science has to be updated, and sometimes completely changed. (Ex. According to scientists, how many planets are in our universe?; According to scientists, is the earth warming, or not?; etc.)

Is all science wrong? No. I say this because I am a scientist (geologist). Is all science right? No. I say this because I am a scientist. I have seen both the wrong and the right that science has offered.

Patrick
Minister, Scientist, Photographer


Well, that is some power.

Science is a journey of discovery. Hypotheses are formed, tested, rejected. And the journey is very fun.



Apr 14, 2008 at 05:42 PM
shelleyc
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.16 #11 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony


Steve Spencer wrote:
Hi Shelley,

I never said that love means either of the things you suggested love does not mean. I don't think it means those things either. I do think it means treating people with kindness, caring and respect. My problem with your choice not to have anything to do with the actual ceremony itself is that I don't see how this is showing the couple love. By taking pictures of a ceremony, I don't see how that means I am condoning the ceremony. Even if there were such a concern it could easily be rectified by sending the couple a
...Show more

Steve:
Yes I would photograph a wedding between a Christian and non-Christian. Why... because it is very possible, and happens often, that through the one spouse, the other does come to know Christ as their personal savior, and God richly blesses the marriage. But between homosexual couples, if they recognize they are going against God's will, the marriage would need to terminate. God would not bless a relationship that he has forbid. So, really, I wouldn't be showing them any love by taking the photos.On the contrary, I would actually be doing them a disservice.



Apr 14, 2008 at 06:36 PM
RedWhiteandRed
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.16 #12 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony


shelleyc wrote:
Steve:
Yes I would photograph a wedding between a Christian and non-Christian. Why... because it is very possible, and happens often, that through the one spouse, the other does come to know Christ as their personal savior, and God richly blesses the marriage. But between homosexual couples, if they recognize they are going against God's will, the marriage would need to terminate. God would not bless a relationship that he has forbid. So, really, I wouldn't be showing them any love by taking the photos.On the contrary, I would actually be doing them a disservice.


Now, this is not the kind of thinking one would encourage. Abdicating your fellow humans in favour of the phantasmic mystery. No upside here at all.

The cult of personality that these ministers exploit is tragic - playing to fear and hatred.



Apr 14, 2008 at 06:49 PM
3catsinky
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.16 #13 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony


i have read through a bunch of posts, and I have to say, I am freakin tried of religion always being brought
up over every single issue. SICK OF IT! WTF ever happened to common sense? Can't we have a presidential
candidate who doesn't need to have some pastor or spiritual advisor around? I mean what a crock.
If the lesbian couple called me, hell yeah, book it! money is money, and in these tough times, I am shooting
any job who is willing to pay full price. Gay, Lesbian, Alien, Purple, I don't care. The only reason I will turn something
down is if I am booked, or the particular job is beyond my skill level and I know I am in over my head.



Apr 14, 2008 at 06:57 PM
Nathan Hobbs
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.16 #14 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony


If God wants to talk about this issue let him post on this thread.

Take the religious opinions and ideas elsewhere please, I do not care if you are a minister or a scientist or whatever. The only issue at hand is whether you should have a personal choice to document a event and how you choose to run your own personal business without risk of being fined. It is not up to us to judge any one and condem anyone on this thread to Gods wrath.

The photographer in New Mexico should have the right to say 'NO' to any event of his choice without having to disclose his personal reason. Anything beyond that and he is stepping beyond the bounds I feel he deserves.



Apr 14, 2008 at 07:06 PM
DragonflyDM
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.16 #15 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony


If gay marriage isn't not recognized in NM, and God doesn't recognize gay marriage-- then the ceremony is just a verbal commitment of two people's love. Since they are not doing anything sexual in the ceremony-- then this is just two people declaring their love for each other. Certainly God endorses people loving each other.

It isn't a wedding. It isn't a legal contract. It isn't a sexual act. There isn't anything illegal or sinful in two people of the same sex saying they love each other.

I love my father, my brother, and my best male friend. If I wanted a ceremony to show those I love how much I love them in front of friends and family-- there should be nothing wrong with that.

As far as the rest of the sins go--- that doesn't wash. You can try and parse it up however you want... no matter how you cut up the Snickers bar, it comes up nuts. You either endorse sin or you don't. If you don't then you have to deny all sinners from your services.

As far as Jesus is concerned. His statements on the "Sermon on the Mount" were not to add restrictions to the commandments, but to clarify them. Any one who has studied the nature of sin in the Old Testament understands that sin is not the act but the motivation of the sin. A man who marries a woman thinking she is single and find out later that she was married-- the wife committed a sin because she KNEW she was doing wrong. The husband is sin-free because his motives were pure.

It is the sin of LUSTING for the neighbors wife that is the sin, not the act of the sin.

That is why Lot did not sin when he slept with his daughters. That is why Noah doesn't sin when he gets drunk and gets naked in front of his kids. That is why Abraham does not sin when he kills his son (or almost does depending on which book you are reading).

Actions are not sinful in the eyes of God-- the motivation behind those actions are what are sinful.

If someone is gay, and they feel they are doing right, they are not sinning (even by true Christian standards) any more than anyone else who hasn't embraced Christianity.

Now if you have a person who says they are a Christian, and they say they are gay, AND they belong to a Christian sect that interprets homosexuality as against God's will (because there are many Christian denominations that believe the being gay is not sinful)-- then THAT gay person is living a sinful life, because they willfully deny their own God.

However, a non-Christian homosexual should be treated like anyone else who hasn't "been saved" and treated as if they were just ignorant of "The WORD."

As far as Matthew 7 goes, they are not talking about the hypocricy of commiting the same sins, but of any judgement against another person because a sense of "righteousness" that anyone knows the inner thoughts of what God would or wouldn't do or say is at risk of being judged himself.



icecreamboy wrote:
Your association of the types of sins you listed falls short due to the fact that heterosexuals who are in sin can repent and be forgiven, and their marriages can be blessed by God. However, two homosexuals (male or female) who enter into a commitment ceremony cannot have God's blessings, even if they were to get saved, because if they got saved, they would have to end that relationship.

That is the fundamental point here. They will not photograph something that God does not endorse.

Furthermore, for those who want to argue what the law says, New Mexico law does not
...Show more



Apr 14, 2008 at 07:31 PM
saturnkk
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.16 #16 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony


icecreamboy wrote:
Ben Horne wrote:
I have several friends who are gay. One of which is only a year older than myself. I remember very well playing at his house as young children, and he was simply wired differently from birth. He was not interested in the same things as his brothers who were straight (sports, bikes, etc). Of course I did not know that he would end up being gay as we were still young (though we did play house a lot), but that is the road he took as he grew up. His upbringing was the exact same as his brothers,

Homosexuality has never been proven to be linked to genetics (birth) by "scientists" no matter how determined they have been. Furthermore, if it were genetic, how can one explain studies of identical twins, one gay, one straight. If if was genetic, they would either both be gay or straight, since they carry the same DNA.

Christianity needs to adapt to what modern man knows about science and the universe? Ha Ha!! Science can't really be set in stone, because with increased knowledge, science has to be updated, and sometimes completely changed. (Ex. According to scientists, how many planets are in our universe?; According to scientists, is the earth warming, or not?; etc.)

Is all science wrong? No. I say this because I am a scientist (geologist). Is all science right? No. I say this because I am a scientist. I have seen both the wrong and the right that science has offered.

Patrick
Minister, Scientist, Photographer

...Show more

Here is an update for you:

Science does not = fact.

Science represents a means to discover our world using a method of controls and repeatability.

Religion is the opposite of science and requires belief without evidence or proof.

...but, you are a scientist so you must already know this.





Apr 14, 2008 at 07:51 PM
butchM
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.16 #17 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony


DragonflyDM wrote:
Since they are not doing anything sexual in the ceremony-- then this is just two people declaring their love for each other.

Actions are not sinful in the eyes of God-- the motivation behind those actions are what are sinful.




very confusing ....

There is no motivation behind declaring their love?


Edited on Apr 14, 2008 at 08:00 PM



Apr 14, 2008 at 07:52 PM
DragonflyDM
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.16 #18 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony


What I am saying is that if a Christian is going to not shoot a ceremony because it is endorsing a sin-- then the act of the ceremony should somehow be part of a homosexual act. Since the state doesn't have gay marriage, and the church doesn't have gay marriage-- then it isn't a marriage ceremony. No need to seek God's blessing, and no official legal contractual State sponsored ceremony.

And since these two people are just committing to their love for each other, and not actually doing a homosexual act-- this is just a party with the declaration of love between two people (who happen to be of the same sex).

There isn't any sin in the event, because it isn't a ceremony, a contract, or a sexual act. What was being objected to, was that Christians documenting two homosexuals declaring their love for each other (and this is love they are declaring not sexual orientation), would be an endorsement of sin.

But they aren't asking for God's marriage, or a State Marriage-- so they are just two people saying "I love you."

So unless you are just objecting to their existence and their potential for doing something homosexual a some other time and place (which means you must reject them in ALL ASPECTS of their life, not just the commitment event), there shouldn't be any objection to shooting their event.



butchM wrote:


very confusing ....

There is no motivation behind declaring their love?




Apr 14, 2008 at 08:08 PM
Sam Hassas
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.16 #19 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony


Holy Moly, (pun intended), 300+ comments. Gotta be an FM record.


Apr 14, 2008 at 08:12 PM
hassy501
Offline
• • • •
[X]
p.16 #20 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony


3catsinky wrote:
i have read through a bunch of posts, and I have to say, I am freakin tried of religion always being brought
up over every single issue. SICK OF IT! WTF ever happened to common sense? Can't we have a presidential
candidate who doesn't need to have some pastor or spiritual advisor around? I mean what a crock.
If the lesbian couple called me, hell yeah, book it! money is money, and in these tough times, I am shooting
any job who is willing to pay full price. Gay, Lesbian, Alien, Purple, I don't care. The only reason I will turn something
down is
...Show more

Well just like you are entitled to shoot anything and everything and people respect that, why can't you respect those who choose to selectively accept assignments ? Isn't that what freedom is all about ?



Apr 14, 2008 at 08:24 PM
1       2       3              15              17       18       end




FM Forums | Wedding Photographer | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              15              17       18       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account