p.14 #1 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
shelleyc wrote:
Steve:
There is a big difference between buying from someone, and taking pictures of them participating in something you don't agree with. I remember reading an article by a professional highly respected photographer that turned down a high paying job because the photos he would be taking would be supporting something he didn't agree with. It was in Outdoor Photographer.. a great article. He refused to cross moral boundaries for the sake of money.
No, there is not. This is the argumentative fallacy of special pleading.
p.14 #2 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
> However, I would be the first to sign up that petition to change the Constitution to make it unconsitutional to sue photographers!!!
Really. What kind of country is this when it's legal to sue Wedding Photographers for any reason at all? We should be amune! To arms! Revolt!
Apr 14, 2008 at 12:29 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.14 #3 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
shelleyc wrote:
Steve:
God does command us to love our neighbour, but love does not mean accepting a lifestyle that God forbids. I love my children, and because of that love, I will correct them when I think they are stepping out side of Gods commands. Love DOES NOT mean that we accept what they are doing so as to not appear judgemental. If I refuse to photograph a gay/lesbian wedding, am I being judgemental. No, I am simply recognizing what God calls sin as sin, and am choosing to not have anything to do with the actual ceremony itself.
What would Jesus honestly do in this situation. Do you honestly believe he would take their pictures. I believe he would explain to them that he loves them, but that what they are doing is not in God's will, and therefore he would refuse to take the pictures. Jesus was always telling the ones he ministered to go and sin no more. Now, how would he be able to take their ceremony pictures, and then tell them... oh by the way, now that you are married, go and sin no more. That would result in the shortest wedding ever. ...Show more →
Hi Shelley,
I never said that love means either of the things you suggested love does not mean. I don't think it means those things either. I do think it means treating people with kindness, caring and respect. My problem with your choice not to have anything to do with the actual ceremony itself is that I don't see how this is showing the couple love. By taking pictures of a ceremony, I don't see how that means I am condoning the ceremony. Even if there were such a concern it could easily be rectified by sending the couple a private note respectfully sharing my views. As a Christian I am not responsible for their actions, but I am very much responsible for my own and whether I am obeying God's command to love my neighbor in this situation.
It is a rather weird hypothetical, but I do believe that Jesus would take the pictures of the ceremony. Just as He provided water to the woman at the well, when doing so was frowned upon by the religious rulers of the day and she was living a sinful life. I believe a photographer could and should provide services which are good in and of themselves and which are provided to others.
Let me ask you a question as well. Would you shoot a wedding between a Christian man and a non-Christian woman, or vice versa? Such marriages are also forbidden by the Bible as I suspect you know. I would have no problem taking photos at such a wedding, because I do not believe taking photos means that I am condoning their decision to get married. Neither do I think that shooting a same-sex ceremony means that I am condoning their decision to get married. To me these two types of weddings would pose very similar issues, and Christians can take pictures at both and should take pictures at both if they take pictures at either.
Edited on Apr 14, 2008 at 12:49 PM
Apr 14, 2008 at 12:34 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.14 #4 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
shelleyc wrote:
Steve:
There is a big difference between buying from someone, and taking pictures of them participating in something you don't agree with. I remember reading an article by a professional highly respected photographer that turned down a high paying job because the photos he would be taking would be supporting something he didn't agree with. It was in Outdoor Photographer.. a great article. He refused to cross moral boundaries for the sake of money.
I don't see the difference between buying and selling. I see shooting a wedding as selling a service at the wedding. I am not participating in the wedding any more than the limo driver, the florists, or the caterer. Now the person officiating at the wedding is participating in it as are arguably the attendants. These might have different responsibilities, but I cannot see how those selling services at the wedding could reasonably be required to say they condone the wedding. Do you research the circumstance of every wedding you shoot and make certain that you condone that particular wedding before you agree to do the work?
p.14 #5 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Steve Spencer wrote:
It is a rather weird hypothetical, but I do believe that Jesus would take the pictures of the ceremony. Just as He provided water to the woman at the well, when doing so was frowned upon by the religious rulers of the day and she was living a sinful life. I believe a photographer could and should provide services which are good in and of themselves and which are provided to others.
You are starting to convince me, but I am not quite there yet. To me there is a difference between what Jesus did for the woman at the well and shooting a gay wedding. While dealing with the woman at the well, Jesus did not help her or participate in her sin. Shooting a gay wedding would be participating. Or maybe not? You are documenting the event, but not necessarily participating or condoning the event.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Let me ask you a question as well. Would you shoot a wedding between a Christian man and a non-Christian woman, or vice versa? Such marriages are also forbidden by the Bible as I suspect you know. I would have no problem taking photos at such a wedding, because I do not believe taking photos means that I am condoning their decision to get married. Neither do I think that shooting a same-sex ceremony means that I am condoning their decision to get married. To me these two types of weddings would pose very similar issues, and Christians can take pictures at both and should take pictures at both if they take pictures at either. ...Show more →
I believe you are mostly right here. I don't beleive the bible says not to marry a non-Christian, but it does say that if your non-Christian spouse leaves, let them go. This can, and probably rightly so, be interpreted to mean you shouldn't marry them in the first place.
p.14 #7 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
OK... one of the problems I have having with this conversation is the "I won't do it because it is a sin." That is a slippery slope.
Do you refuse to shoot weddings for people who don't talk to their parents? ("Those shalt honor thy mother and father")
Do you refuse to shoot jewish weddings or a denominational other than yours? (Thou shalt have no other God before me)
Do you refuse to shoot weddings of people who have illegal cable? (Thou shalt not steal)
Do you refuse to shoot a wedding if the B&G swear a lot (Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain).
Do you refuse to shoot weddings for people who don't go to church? (Remember the Sabbath)
What if the couple is re-marrying? (Thou shalt not commit adultery)
Do you refuse to shoot a wedding if the groom talks about borrowing his neighbor's lawn mower and doesn't want to return it? ( 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.').
These are sins under the BIG TEN. Homosexuality isn't even mentioned in the BIG TEN sins of all sins.... and yet this is where you draw the line.
I find it hypocritical that Christians "pick and choose" the sins that are worth pursuing and persecuting.
If you want to follow Jesus' example, then follow his words directly "let those of us without sin cast the first stone," and "Judge not lest ye be judged."
Why is it that the least Christian among us are the ones that spend the most time in church!!!
I'll tell you what-- show me the Christian that turns away clients for ALL sins that potential clients have, and I will giver you a Christian photographer that is justified. Otherwise it is just using the Bible to justify bigotry.
Edited by DragonflyDM on Apr 14, 2008 at 01:23 PM GMT
p.14 #8 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
We've been here before, I cannot, will not and have refused to perfrom gay ceremonies. It is an abomination before the Lord MY GOD.... your god may very. I would rather WIN with GOD than win with man. Lev. 18:22 to be pointed about it.
p.14 #9 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
The question is above your post, though. What other sins have been the basis of your refusing other clients? Have you refused other sinners or just the gay ones? How is it a WIN for you to refuse a gay couple when you would shoot someone that doesn't respect their parents or covets his neighbor's lawn mower?? Could you shoot a wedding of a couple that is remarrying or doesn't respect the sabbath?
How can it be OK to be a part-time Christian for the issues you want to fight against, and ignore the ones you don't care too much about?
sivrajbm wrote:
We've been here before, I cannot, will not and have refused to perfrom gay ceremonies. It is an abomination before the Lord MY GOD.... your god may very. I would rather WIN with GOD than win with man.
Edited by DragonflyDM on Apr 14, 2008 at 01:27 PM GMT
p.14 #10 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
RedWhiteandRed wrote:
What sin? Two people committing their love is no sin.
Why do you keep spouting this stuff? Obviously you are not a Christian so you do not believe in sin. Some of us are Christians and therefore believe in sin. Do you believe your beliefs are more valid than my beliefs? From your prior posts I would conclude yes you do. You obviously are as discriminatory toward Christians as you claim they are toward non-Christians so how does that make you the better man?
The answer is it doesn't. Don't take this hard, this is a growth point for you. Now that you know you have a problem you can deal with it.
p.14 #12 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Gmacklem,
This is a good moment for growth for you as well. How do you justify which sins are worth fighting against and which are OK to ignore? At what point can you be allowed to judge if one persons sin is a sin that Jesus feels you should do something about, and which ones you should just leave to Him to deal with in the after life?
gmacklem wrote:
Why do you keep spouting this stuff? Obviously you are not a Christian so you do not believe in sin. Some of us are Christians and therefore believe in sin. Do you believe your beliefs are more valid than my beliefs? From your prior posts I would conclude yes you do. You obviously are as discriminatory toward Christians as you claim they are toward non-Christians so how does that make you the better man?
The answer is it doesn't. Don't take this hard, this is a growth point for you. Now that you know you have a problem you can deal with it....Show more →
p.14 #13 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
gmacklem wrote:
The answer is it doesn't. Don't take this hard, this is a growth point for you. Now that you know you have a problem you can deal with it.
This is not a belief point - it is wrong to discriminate. It is not that I believe it is wrong - it is wrong.
p.14 #14 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
DragonflyDM wrote:
Gmacklem,
This is a good moment for growth for you as well. How do you justify which sins are worth fighting against and which are OK to ignore? At what point can you be allowed to judge if one persons sin is a sin that Jesus feels you should do something about, and which ones you should just leave to Him to deal with in the after life?
You obviously haven't been reading my posts or you would see that I am working on it as well. The difference between me and RWR, is I am willing to discuss it where RWR constantly tries to provoke an argument.
As for discerning (judging) sin, I don't have to do that as God has laid that out for me. What we as Christians should be doing is determing when we are accomplices (stumbling blocks) and when we are not. For example, drinking is not a sin, going out bar hopping with an alcholic is since you are being a stumbling block.
p.14 #16 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
RedWhiteandRed wrote:
This is not a belief point - it is wrong to discriminate. It is not that I believe it is wrong - it is wrong.
What is wrong is the way you have treated Christians and Christian beliefs in this thread. Go back and re-read your own posts. You have been derogatory and argumentative. I am sure you know that adultery is a sin as defined by the bible. But Jesus said that not only is the act a sin, but lust in the heart is a sin as well. So while you may not discriminate against Christian marriages, you hold contempt for Christians which makes you as guilty as the rest of us.
Apr 14, 2008 at 01:39 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.14 #17 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
gmacklem wrote:
I believe you are mostly right here. I don't beleive the bible says not to marry a non-Christian, but it does say that if your non-Christian spouse leaves, let them go. This can, and probably rightly so, be interpreted to mean you shouldn't marry them in the first place.
The passage to which people have traditionally referred when arguing that the Bible forbids marriage between Christians and non-Christians is 2 Corinthians 6:14:
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
p.14 #18 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
Steve Spencer wrote:
The passage to which people have traditionally referred when arguing that the Bible forbids marriage between Christians and non-Christians is 2 Corinthians 6:14:
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
p.14 #20 · Christian Photographers Fined $6,000 For Refusing to Shoot Lesbian Commitment Ceremony
gmacklem wrote:
What is wrong is the way you have treated Christians and Christian beliefs in this thread. Go back and re-read your own posts. You have been derogatory and argumentative. I am sure you know that adultery is a sin as defined by the bible. But Jesus said that not only is the act a sin, but lust in the heart is a sin as well. So while you may not discriminate against Christian marriages, you hold contempt for Christians which makes you as guilty as the rest of us.
Not at all. What is wrong is that a business would deny service to anyone on the basis of prejudice and discrimination.
That some people think there is a god and run from chapter to verse in one text or another is immaterial save for their choosing the verses that support discrimination.
You are documenting the event, but not necessarily participating or condoning the event.