p.8 #1 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
philip_pj wrote:
People value Leica for all kinds of non-RF reasons: color, quality, size, weight etc. EVF usage for MF lenses is not at all 'slow' and certainly not excessively so. The contrary view is best considered to be an AF mindset artifact.
Non-RF, MF capable cameras have been around forever. I would be surprised in the EVF-M (let's call it) had any built-in AF features, nor should it. Just employ the best focus aids that are not overly invasive and easily selectable.
In early Sony days, vast catalogs of images were shot with MF lenses on the technology of the day. That camera opened up so many possibilities for heritage (vintage) legacy lenses. I still use these cameras, feel free to scan my work if you need to confirm what I say here. I shoot portraits days on end using MF only on Sony EVFs. I seldom miss!
It occurs that Leica-dominant people may not appreciate that past and present (non-M) MF lenses are very easy to work with using an EVF system. It's their raison d'etre after all, and many have lovely fall-off and are forgiving of near misses. Again, both by design and happenstance. Far better than OVF, and no RF problems.
We have these lovely lenses called Loxias, made specifically as MF lenses for the Sony system. No experienced MF shooter complains about taking speed. All systems miss too, someone walks in front of your subject and the AF shifts to them and you don't even know it. ...Show more →
Its on of the reasons I bought into the Hasseblad 907x-
I get to now try all of the Medium format lenses with/without leaf shutter with the 907x back.
I just snagged a Hasseblad Planar 110 f/2 with a few dings for about 700 bucks. STEAL of a lens at that price~!!!! ~ I hope Leica does come with this idea and just make shit work. No digital coupling needed like the non sense Nikon did-
Just a new, simple way of validating you have acquired focus with any MF lens. Time will tell- Just think of all the Leica R lenses etc that can easily come into play here.
p.8 #2 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Another thing occurs: the ability to use non-RF manual focus lenses via adapters on the prospective EVF-M bodies (they will make a range of them over time). If the differences in throat size (ID and OD) permit unimpeded full sensor projection, adapters for the huge inventory of manual focus SLR lenses would measure around 16-19mm in thickness for most of them.
That would be very useful indeed compared to the 28mm (~100 gram) adapters we need for these lenses to be used on Sony cameras. Quality 'plain' M-E adapters are small and light at 10mm thick and 35 grams. EVF cameras are universalist by their very nature.
p.8 #3 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
philip_pj wrote:
In early Sony days, vast catalogs of images were shot with MF lenses on the technology of the day. That camera opened up so many possibilities for heritage (vintage) legacy lenses. I still use these cameras, feel free to scan my work if you need to confirm what I say here. I shoot portraits days on end using MF only on Sony EVFs. I seldom miss!
It occurs that Leica-dominant people may not appreciate that past and present (non-M) MF lenses are very easy to work with using an EVF system. It's their raison d'etre after all, and many have lovely fall-off and are forgiving of near misses. Again, both by design and happenstance. Far better than OVF, and no RF problems.
I second this. I came to Leica through Sony: my first small and compact 50 mm lens for my Sony A7R was the Leica 50/2.0 Vers. V which I own and use to this day. It took years until I bought my first Leica M - a film M (M6 first and then a couple years later in 2019 the M-E 240). For many years I made rangefinder lenses work on my Sony camera which also meant to use PP tools to get rid of purple corner casts with some wide angle lenses. I never had trouble focusing with the EVF of my A7R, but I also found out that rangefinder focusing often is faster. Therefore I agree with earlier statements here that Leica needs to release excellent manual focus tools within the EVF of an EVF with M-mount (dedicated to manual focus lenses).
I also agree with you that many Leica users have no experience with MLCs like Sony for example. That's why many might dismiss opportunities an EVF provides over an OVF in specific situations. And an external EVF is definitely not the same as I can judge from my experience with the VF-2 (even this one has a great function to view through 90 degree flipped upwards ideal for macro work - would be nice if the EVF-M has a flippable back screen).
Due to my experience with both systems - EVF and rangefinder OVF - I see for me the EVF-M as great addition to my set of Leica M cameras but not as replacement. I just don't want to use an adapter to make my M lenses work on the EVF-M.
p.8 #6 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
In contrast, nobody else is making a digital rangefinder. There is no competition. Here they have a monopoly.
Yes, you are absolutely right, they only have a literal monopoly with the rangefinder. I was also clear about that, as I said that they had an ‘almost’ monopoly with the lenses, and even mentioned CV lenses, some of which I own and enjoy. I was trying to make the point that your argument in favour of Leica protecting the rangefinder camera was too limiting if it gets too focused on this idea of a monopoly, since many people do buy Leica M cameras for reasons other than the rangefinder (indeed some people don’t even really like the rangefinder, or can no longer use it well) one important reason is for the small, fine manual lenses, with great ergonomics, and there is not much competition for the very high quality small lenses. The Chinese are making ground, no doubt, but they have a way to go yet before they can match Leica or CV for the combination of size and IQ excellence. Typoch is doing well, but they are still bigger than everything other than the oversized Leica 28mm f1.4.
More detailed rumours will help us know whether the M-EVF is really an M mount. I think it will be.
p.8 #7 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
The main shortcoming of my Sony A7CR is the EVF. I think that an ultra high-quality EVF that fits in a small body is going to be a major challenge.
This might be due to a deliberate crippling to avoid completion with the slightly larger A7RV. I hope so, anyway. The 9.44 million dot EVF of the A7RV does not take up much more room than the 2.36 m dot EVF of the A7RII.
p.8 #9 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
raizans wrote:
Leica will not lose the monopoly on rangefinders if they make an EVF-M.
+1
The only way Leica loses the "monopoly" on optical rangefinders is if there are other companies making optical rangefinders to compete with Leica.
But, even then ... Pentax recently added a monochrome sensor to their lineup. Leica's "other" monopoly is monochrome sensors. Pentax and Kolari conversions for IR > Mono are alternatives, but they don't put a dent in Leica's foothold on OEM / native monochrome.
It would take quite a bit of other mfr's, for an extended period of time to make a dent in Leica's foothold on optical rangefinders. Leica is proven in this regard in a way that ... ummm, who else is gonna undertake the effort to build the track record to compete in a manner that would potentially encroach on Leica.
So, yeah ... it's not much of a "risk" to the Leica M. Does it potentially redistribute the market across multiple M variants? Sure, why not. But, so does the -M, -R, -P, -D ... and collector editions. Nothing I'd fret over. Instead, I'd see it as Leica being "responsive" to their customers. Which, rather than being a degradation to their "monopoly", it's a re-enforcement to their willingness to listen to their customer base.
Folks can cry "half-empty" or "half-full" ... and some will do each. But, in the end Leica will do what Leica will do.
p.8 #10 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
philip_pj wrote:
In early Sony days, vast catalogs of images were shot with MF lenses on the technology of the day. That camera opened up so many possibilities for heritage (vintage) legacy lenses. I still use these cameras, feel free to scan my work if you need to confirm what I say here. I shoot portraits days on end using MF only on Sony EVFs. I seldom miss!
It occurs that Leica-dominant people may not appreciate that past and present (non-M) MF lenses are very easy to work with using an EVF system. It's their raison d'etre after all, and many have lovely fall-off and are forgiving of near misses. Again, both by design and happenstance. Far better than OVF, and no RF problems. ...Show more →
Sure, but the 'problem' with adapted manual focus lenses on mirrorless cameras so far has been that you're restricted to either focus peaking, which isn't accurate enough at moderately stopped down apertures to precisely place focus on high resolution sensors, or it's magnified view, which is too slow and disorienting for moving subjects. If you have time, either of these are suitable, but once subjects start moving, it's a different matter, IMO.
Does anyone now offer phase-detect based focus assist features for non-native lenses? I'm not familiar enough with Nikon and Sony. With Canon the lens has to be EF with electronic contacts, or native RF. With lenses adapted to EF you used to be able to add 'dandelion' electronic contacts/chips to make the camera recognize the lens. But without that, Canon's nifty PD-based focus assist feature is not available and you're back to peaking or magnified view.
With a Leica EVF-M, one would hope that there would be a better focus assist feature available for M mount lenses than just peaking or magnified view so that the camera can be used fluidly and confidently in dynamic situations.
retrofocus wrote:
I also agree with you that many Leica users have no experience with MLCs like Sony for example. That's why many might dismiss opportunities an EVF provides over an OVF in specific situations.
I think that's too strong of an assumption. I know many here on this board, that use the M system, are also mirrorless users, me included.
For me, mirrorless is DSLRs on steroids because I want 40fps AF subject tracking capability for some of the work that I do. The technology greatly simplifies certain aspects of this kind of work, allowing me to concentrate more on the subject and timing.
I would do more work with adapted manual focus lenses on my Canon mirrorless if they worked with Canon's focus assist feature without the need for an electronic contact. As it stands, lenses need to be native RF or EF, or chipped EF. Most native manual focus EF lenses are Zeiss ZE, which are all quite large and heavy, though optically very interesting. And there are a few Voigtlander lenses now available with electronic RF mount that would be more along what I'd prefer. I'm just not interested in large manual focus lenses any more, like the Zeiss ZE. So this is where an EVF-M has appeal for me for use with my existing M lens collection, if the focusing aid is close to being as effective as the traditional RF patch. That said, I doubt I'd be first in line for it given it would likely be in the $10K range.
Feb 12, 2025 at 11:02 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.8 #11 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
raizans wrote:
Leica will not lose the monopoly on rangefinders if they make an EVF-M.
Of course they won't lose that monopoly, but will they shrink the market for that product for which they have the monopoly? I think they will. Right now the market for those who want a Leica M is not very big, but that market will it seems to me get smaller if they make this rumored camera and especially so if they make it with an M mount. Leica will in effect be saying to this market, many of you would be better off with an EVF based camera. It will cause some who are not considering making the shift from a rangefinder to an EVF based camera to consider making that switch and some will do so. When they do so, the market for which Leica has a monopoly will shrink and that is a risk and a potential loss for Leica.
p.8 #12 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
rscheffler wrote:
Sure, but the 'problem' with adapted manual focus lenses on mirrorless cameras so far has been that you're restricted to either focus peaking, ..., or it's magnified view, ....
The potential problem with any EVF M from Leica will be how good the viewfinder implementation will be. On the M-240 one can use (or try to use) Liveview off the LCD or the (Olympus) EVF, and have magnified view available (via the front button). I've used that approach with a 90 cron and 75 7A but it is frustrating due to the low resolution.
I've tried M/LTM lenses adapted going back to the Olympus EPL1 combined with Leica's pricey M to m4/3 adapter. When Leica was an active member of the 4/3 consortium, the move to the short registration m4/3 format had the potential to expand the viability of M mount glass I suppose. Low resolution viewfinders kinda blew that...
At the moment, after six years of using all my M/LTM glass for my M-240, on a Z7 (zero focus peaking usage), all I can say is that for me, any Leica EVF-M viewfinder implementation would have to be as good as my going on seven year old Z7, and be a similar size body, definitely not the Panasonic S - Leica SL route.
I wouldn't have a problem dropping 5 or 6k on a new body, if it matched or surpassed my current two body system, just out of curiosity, but given Leica's track record and their software, I am not waiting with baited breath.
p.8 #13 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Steve Spencer wrote:
Of course they won't lose that monopoly, but will they shrink the market for that product for which they have the monopoly? I think they will. Right now the market for those who want a Leica M is not very big, but that market will it seems to me get smaller if they make this rumored camera and especially so if they make it with an M mount. Leica will in effect be saying to this market, many of you would be better off with an EVF based camera. It will cause some who are not considering making the shift from a rangefinder to an EVF based camera to consider making that switch and some will do so. When they do so, the market for which Leica has a monopoly will shrink and that is a risk and a potential loss for Leica. ...Show more →
There’s very little from preventing a company to build a mirrorless camera that takes M lenses without much of an issue. Or for us to use our M lenses with tiny adapters on existing EVF cameras. It would be smart of Leica to be the company to cater to that market segment and not lose it to others.
The rangefinder segment, on the other hand, is so small that no other manufacturer is going to bother with it. That’s Leica’s to keep.
p.8 #14 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Steve Spencer wrote:
Of course they won't lose that monopoly, but will they shrink the market for that product for which they have the monopoly? I think they will. Right now the market for those who want a Leica M is not very big, but that market will it seems to me get smaller if they make this rumored camera and especially so if they make it with an M mount. Leica will in effect be saying to this market, many of you would be better off with an EVF based camera. It will cause some who are not considering making the shift from a rangefinder to an EVF based camera to consider making that switch and some will do so. When they do so, the market for which Leica has a monopoly will shrink and that is a risk and a potential loss for Leica. ...Show more →
I beg to differ in this opinion. An additional new EVF-M line will be seen as addition to the monopoly-based Leica rangefinder M market. The ones who prefer EVF won't be attracted by a rangefinder M with OVF for various reasons (eye issues, preference of EVF over OVF). And the ones who are vested in rangefinder M cameras will either ignore the EVF-M or think about adding one to their existing rangefinder camera(s). I don't think there is any loss for Leica - in fact it might attract also new customers who prefer smaller M lenses - which some stated here as being the main advantage of the rangefinder M system which I would also agree with - but currently there is no other MLC where M lenses work 100% and without adapter with a compact size FF camera body. In the current Leica world someone with EVF preference is either forced to go with single-lens Q series or bulkier SL series plus using adapter for M lenses. Both IMO far from ideal - so I am convinced the EVF-M will fill a niche for Leica which actually brings more money.
Instead as I said earlier I can see some Leica Q users venturing to EVF-M to make use of interchangeable lens mount for M lenses if not too interested in AF capabilities of the Q. Likely this will be a small group of users. As well as SL users - many of them vested into the L lens environment, so I don't think many here will venture back to EVF-M with M lenses and only manual focus. It would be a very different story for a potential EVF-L camera with L-mount instead of M-mount - here Leica certainly would create significant in-house competition with the SL series.
Feb 13, 2025 at 07:32 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.8 #15 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
johnvanr wrote:
There’s very little from preventing a company to build a mirrorless camera that takes M lenses without much of an issue. Or for us to use our M lenses with tiny adapters on existing EVF cameras. It would be smart of Leica to be the company to cater to that market segment and not lose it to others.
The rangefinder segment, on the other hand, is so small that no other manufacturer is going to bother with it. That’s Leica’s to keep.
It would be smart if they were a company that competes well with other companies. I don't think that is Leica, however. IMO, whenever they compete directly with other companies they struggle.
Feb 13, 2025 at 07:37 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.8 #16 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
retrofocus wrote:
I beg to differ in this opinion. An additional new EVF-M line will be seen as addition to the monopoly-based Leica rangefinder M market. The ones who prefer EVF won't be attracted by a rangefinder M with OVF for various reasons (eye issues, preference of EVF over OVF). And the ones who are vested in rangefinder M cameras will either ignore the EVF-M or think about adding one to their existing rangefinder camera(s). I don't think there is any loss for Leica - in fact it might attract also new customers who prefer smaller M lenses - which some stated here as being the main advantage of the rangefinder M system which I would also agree with - but currently there is no other MLC where M lenses work 100% and without adapter with a compact size FF camera body. In the current Leica world someone with EVF preference is either forced to go with single-lens Q series or bulkier SL series plus using adapter for M lenses. Both IMO far from ideal - so I am convinced the EVF-M will fill a niche for Leica which actually brings more money.
Instead as I said earlier I can see some Leica Q users venturing to EVF-M to make use of interchangeable lens mount for M lenses if not too interested in AF capabilities of the Q. Likely this will be a small group of users. As well as SL users - many of them vested into the L lens environment, so I don't think many here will venture back to EVF-M with M lenses and only manual focus. It would be a very different story for a potential EVF-L camera with L-mount instead of M-mount - here Leica certainly would create significant in-house competition with the SL series. ...Show more →
We just disagree about the rangefinder market. You think adding a small EVF M mount camera won't hurt that market. I think it will, which will in turn hurt Leica as that market is where Leica is resoundingly successful. I could easily be wrong. I claim no expertise, but I think shrinking that rangefinder market is the risk that Leica faces with making a small EVF M mount camera.
Do I think that Leica can build a camera with an EVF and an M mount that will be superior to everything else in the market? Yes, I think they can and that would be good for those of us who would like such a camera. Do I think Leica would succeed long term by doing so? No. If that camera is even moderately successful, then I think other companies will have an opportunity to compete with Leica and take away a huge portion of any sales Leica gains in that market. It is easy to imagine, for example, new models of the Sony A7C series that are only an adapter and a sensor mod (or a switch to E-mount versions of Voigtlander and Thypoch lenses) away from offering a very compelling alternative to that Leica camera. Nikon and Canon could join that party too and Leica could easily struggle facing that competition just as they do with bigger EVF cameras with their SL series.
Leica makes very good products. They also have slow product cycles, very high prices, and very slow customer service. They do great when they have a monopoly like with Leica M cameras (and really with the Q as well now that Sony isn't competing with them any more), but it sure looks to me like they don't compete well when they go head to head with other companies. Don't get me wrong. I do like their products, but I just think the high prices and very slow customer service and not being at the cutting edge of new technology really hurts them when they compete and they are a lot better off in markets without competition where they do well.
p.8 #18 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Steve Spencer wrote:
We just disagree about the rangefinder market. You think adding a small EVF M mount camera won't hurt that market. I think it will, which will in turn hurt Leica as that market is where Leica is resoundingly successful. I could easily be wrong. I claim no expertise, but I think shrinking that rangefinder market is the risk that Leica faces with making a small EVF M mount camera.
Do I think that Leica can build a camera with an EVF and an M mount that will be superior to everything else in the market? Yes, I think they can and that would be good for those of us who would like such a camera. Do I think Leica would succeed long term by doing so? No. If that camera is even moderately successful, then I think other companies will have an opportunity to compete with Leica and take away a huge portion of any sales Leica gains in that market. It is easy to imagine, for example, new models of the Sony A7C series that are only an adapter and a sensor mod (or a switch to E-mount versions of Voigtlander and Thypoch lenses) away from offering a very compelling alternative to that Leica camera. Nikon and Canon could join that party too and Leica could easily struggle facing that competition just as they do with bigger EVF cameras with their SL series.
Leica makes very good products. They also have slow product cycles, very high prices, and very slow customer service. They do great when they have a monopoly like with Leica M cameras (and really with the Q as well now that Sony isn't competing with them any more), but it sure looks to me like they don't compete well when they go head to head with other companies. Don't get me wrong. I do like their products, but I just think the high prices and very slow customer service and not being at the cutting edge of new technology really hurts them when they compete and they are a lot better off in markets without competition where they do well....Show more →
Best of luck seeing any other brand being equivalent with Leica products when it comes down to best possible compatibility between sensor and M lens. The SL is one of the best options but not perfect here either since the SL camera is not predominantly made for M lenses either. Same is true for Nikon Zf - one of the best third party options to mount M-lenses on a MLC body currently. I expect that only an EVF-M will ensure best compatibility here for M lenses - and without need for an adapter.
p.8 #19 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Steve Spencer wrote:
IMO, whenever they compete directly with other companies they struggle.
The EVF-M doesn’t compete with other companies, which is why it will sell well. Having an EVF is far less important than the impact of the lens mount. No company makes a camera that natively uses M-mount lenses (all manual) and has a built-in EVF. Other companies make mirrorless cameras with wider and larger AF lenses. The mount is so wide that some lenses have barrels that awkwardly “step-down” at the focus ring just so you can hold them comfortably, including third party manual focus lenses. The EVF-M uniquely offers a coherent, seamless user experience for a lens system that is ergonomically ideal, fully manual, and optically unmatched in both variety and quality. We might have been highlighting the EVF by calling the imaginary camera the EVF-M, but the key feature continues to be the “-M” part of the name.
p.8 #20 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
raizans wrote:
The EVF-M doesn’t compete with other companies, which is why it will sell well. Having an EVF is far less important than the impact of the lens mount. No company makes a camera that natively uses M-mount lenses (all manual) and has a built-in EVF. Other companies make mirrorless cameras with wider and larger AF lenses. The mount is so wide that some lenses have barrels that awkwardly “step-down” at the focus ring just so you can hold them comfortably, including third party manual focus lenses. The EVF-M uniquely offers a coherent, seamless user experience for a lens system that is ergonomically ideal, fully manual, and optically unmatched in both variety and quality. We might have been highlighting the EVF by calling the imaginary camera the EVF-M, but the key feature continues to be the “-M” part of the name....Show more →
+1. Exactly. Unfortunately Leica will charge a fortune just for this capability, but this is where they also have their monopoly.
HAHA 
