A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
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p.9 #1 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
raizans wrote:
The EVF-M doesn’t compete with other companies, which is why it will sell well. Having an EVF is far less important than the impact of the lens mount. No company makes a camera that natively uses M-mount lenses (all manual) and has a built-in EVF. Other companies make mirrorless cameras with wider and larger AF lenses. The mount is so wide that some lenses have barrels that awkwardly “step-down” at the focus ring just so you can hold them comfortably, including third party manual focus lenses. The EVF-M uniquely offers a coherent, seamless user experience for a lens system that is ergonomically ideal, fully manual, and optically unmatched in both variety and quality. We might have been highlighting the EVF by calling the imaginary camera the EVF-M, but the key feature continues to be the “-M” part of the name....Show more →
I just disagree. I don't think lens mount is a barrier to competition. In the EVF world with bigger cameras Leica has to compete with Sony, Canon, Nikon, etc even though they have a different mount. I see that as no different with an EVF M. Voigtlander already makes a compelling line of Sony E mount and Nikon Z mount lenses that are not too different from their and Leica's own M mount lenses. Thypoch is also building a line of lens for all mirrorless mounts that could compete with Leica M mount lenses. There will be others as well. IMO, the lens mount would not provide any meaningful barrier to competition. Leica will be competing with other companies that provide products that are cheaper, have more cutting edge technology, and provide faster customer service. Leica will struggle against such competition just like they do with their SL series of cameras. That is just my opinion, however.
Feb 13, 2025 at 10:06 AM
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p.9 #2 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
retrofocus wrote:
+1. Exactly. Unfortunately Leica will charge a fortune just for this capability, but this is where they also have their monopoly.
This is not really a monopoly, IMO. Every company except L mount camera producers produce cameras exclusively for their own mount, yet they still compete with other companies. Leica will have to compete with Sony and likely in time Nikon and Canon for a small EVF based camera that can be used for manual focus lenses and it is only in the short term, in my view that the M mount would provide Leica with any advantage. In the long run there will be lots of lenses for every mirrorless mount built for manual focus and the mount will make little difference to what is offered as it already does for Thypoch lenses and for many Voigtlander lenses.
p.9 #3 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Steve Spencer wrote:
This is not really a monopoly, IMO. Every company except L mount camera producers produce cameras exclusively for their own mount, yet they still compete with other companies. Leica will have to compete with Sony and likely in time Nikon and Canon for a small EVF based camera that can be used for manual focus lenses and it is only in the short term, in my view that the M mount would provide Leica with any advantage. In the long run there will be lots of lenses for every mirrorless mount built for manual focus and the mount will make little difference to what is offered as it already does for Thypoch lenses and for many Voigtlander lenses....Show more →
I also don't agree with this view. I waited since 2013 when Sony released their first series of FF MLC cameras to have a non-Leica brand making a FF camera which works perfectly with M lenses as rangefinder M cameras do. Guess what - it never happened. Reason is that other manufacturers focus their optimization on AF-based larger lenses with longer flange distance. That's why other MLCs have better compatibility with SLR and DSLR lenses but less with shorter flange rangefinder lenses. Even Panasonic L-Mount MLCs do not deliver here as well as Leica M cameras do.
Comparing this to well made manual focus lenses for another mount is also not a valid comparison: it is a totally different camera environment. In short: you can't and won't be able to mount M-mount lenses on different branded MLCs with adapter working 100% ideal at all focal lengths. It works with some brands being more feasible here than others mostly due to sensor stack thickness but it will never be as ideal as a digital Leica M camera is. No other manufacturer will optimize a FF MLC for rangefinder M lenses - it happened once with the Zeiss camera which flopped badly due to overpricing and provided performance.
p.9 #4 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
The closest Sony, Canon, and Nikon can get to competing with the EVF-M is to make a rangefinder-style EVF camera and offer compact, manual focus lenses. Can they compete with the EVF-M? Sure, but probably not well. I’ve been waiting for the EVF-M for a long time. If something compelling had come up by now, I probably would have gotten it, but nothing has. Just one data point.
The Sony A7C is a chunky camera and has no feeling of simplicity and “analog” experience. Do I hope they make a slimmer, more retro camera? Yes, but they don’t give any indication of having much interest. Where’s the RX1R III? And Nikon and Canon have nothing yet. Will Nikon ever make a Zs? Time will tell.
Manual focus lens options will be forever limited by their wider mounts. The barrels will often step-down, and they all tend to be large, fast lenses. The Thypoch lenses are big. There isn’t a single small, “jewel” sized lens available in any of their mounts. Fujifilm comes closest with the Fujicrons, but they are AF, and X-mount is APS-C. Voigtländer has a whopping two small, manual focus lenses. Is it competitive? A little bit, but not really.
Overall, mirrorless generally adopts the SLR form factor much better than the rangefinder form factor. They don’t compete directly, and the larger mounts mean that they can’t really get on the same level. It is a fundamental difference.
p.9 #5 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Steve Spencer wrote:
It would be smart if they were a company that competes well with other companies. I don't think that is Leica, however. IMO, whenever they compete directly with other companies they struggle.
Of course they struggle: they deliver older tech at higher prices, i.e. the SL.
That would indeed be their problem. Doesn’t mean that others won’t make a move and hurt Leica. A CL-style FF camera that would take M mount lenses at around $4000 would make sense for them, but they may be afraid to do it.
Feb 13, 2025 at 11:14 AM
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p.9 #6 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Yeah, where I disagree with you is whether there will be competition or not. You think there won't be competition. I think there will be. I think we agree that if there is competition Leica won't do well.
With regard to competition, I think Sony and Nikon are not far away and with the help of Voigtlander and Thypoch they will offering a compelling alternative. The Sony A7CR shows to me that Sony has a commitment to a small EVF rangefinder type camera. A version II of that camera with a 5.7 million dot EVF and a full manual shutter, both of which I think are doable and I think Sony is there and with all the Voigtlander and Thypoch E mount lenses they would have, IMO, a compelling competitor.
Nikon is further away, but I wouldn't be surprised if they in the end made the better alternative. With the ZF they had a hit for people who want manual focus. If they did as good of a job with a rangefinder styled EVF camera and kept it small, then they would have a really compelling camera too. And again Voigtlander and Thypoch would offer a lot of lenses for that mount.
I know you guys don't think it is plausible these companies will compete, but let's just agree to disagree.
Feb 13, 2025 at 11:19 AM
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p.9 #7 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
johnvanr wrote:
Of course they struggle: they deliver older tech at higher prices, i.e. the SL.
That would indeed be their problem. Doesn’t mean that others won’t make a move and hurt Leica. A CL-style FF camera that would take M mount lenses at around $4000 would make sense for them, but they may be afraid to do it.
That would be so unlike Leica to ever do that. I would expect at least a $6,000 price tag on the rumored camera.
p.9 #9 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
gordec wrote:
In Fuji system it is. In a true RF and EVF hybrid it's not. You are actually using the RF to focus.
Having owned the Xpro3 I wouldn’t say it is gimmicky but it does not provide an RF experience.
What it does provide is the option of switching between either EVF or optical VF in the same body.
I liked it because I got AF with an optical VF.
What I didn’t like about it was the manual focus mode - it uses the EVF as there is no optical rangefinder.
It was an issue for me as EVFs give me a motion sickness feeling.
But what Fuji demonstrated is that it is possible to have an EVF in an OVF. Interestingly Fuji used to make rangefinder cameras like the Xpans, Gw series etc so they do have the knowhow to build optical RFs. If they really wanted to they could combine and optical RF with the EVF. But I am sure they ran a demand analysis and deemed it unprofitable.
p.9 #11 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Seems like it could be the perfect camera for me. Long time M shooter who has tried unsuccessfully for years to integrate my M lenes into other bodies where either the SL was too big/heavy or Sony's sensor thickness.
Lately I've found the mix of the M10M and Nikon Zf does well for me but would probably instantly replace the Zf with a EVF based M mount camera. Would love it if they could incorporate the manual focus aids of the Zf (but seems unlikely).
Mostly I just can't get away from the M lenses no matter what I try and whatever gives me the best overall experience using them gets my money.
p.9 #12 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
If you look under the hood of an X100 or X-Pro, you'll see that the OLED screen of the EVF is in the way of the rangefinder spot's light path. There's no way to get around it.
p.9 #13 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
My feeling is that a semi-affordable 500 gram Leica EVF-M would be in another league compared to the drab milquetoast offerings for MF users coming from Sony's and Nikon's plastic predominantly AF appliance-like bodies, none of which are oil paintings.
Leica has to do this; they have had time to do their preliminaries. What a travel camera it would be - wide angles to telephotos. It will spur the development of M-mount portrait lenses, which are much needed. It could be an instant classic of the modern age.
p.9 #14 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
philip_pj wrote:
My feeling is that a semi-affordable 500 gram Leica EVF-M would be in another league compared to the drab milquetoast offerings for MF users coming from Sony's and Nikon's plastic predominantly AF appliance-like bodies, none of which are oil paintings.
Leica has to do this; they have had time to do their preliminaries. What a travel camera it would be - wide angles to telephotos. It will spur the development of M-mount portrait lenses, which are much needed. It could be an instant classic of the modern age.
While I agree with the sentiment, calling the Zf predominantly plastic is wrong. Leica wins with clean body design and clean menus, as well as with size and weight (probably because the Zf is stuffed with high tech the M lacks). Those should remain its core strengths.
p.9 #15 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
I would have thought the high tech was silicon-based, John. The question of materials used in the Zf has evoked a fair degree of chat, though I was referring to the cladding and feel:
'The rear and bottom plates are plastic. The bottom plate in particular is a shame, as it feels flimsy and doesn't look quite like the top. The rear is fine, it was never going to feel 'genuine' anyway, especially with the flippy screen (which has to be made of plastic). The battery door is pathetic - but no worse than that on my Olympus E-M10, which is my benchmark in this case.'
'The body itself I think is plastic, but the top plate may be a metallic material (the dials I think are plastic). If you want a more substantial build, the Zf is mostly metal with some plastic on the body (for the "leather" part). Personally the plastics on Nikons never really bothered me because I feel that while it is plastic, it's good quality plastic'' (!)
These comments are disputed in the back and forth, but the crinkled cladding looks plastic-like, it also covers the LCD. That seems fair, of course you may like it which is a different issue.
The Leicas look like jewels:
'The silver version of the M11l has a die-cast magnesium and brass body, which makes it heavier than the black model, which is made from magnesium and aluminium. The top and base panels of the silver version are made from solid brass, which is ground and polished by hand. The black M11’s top plate is made from coated aluminium and is more scratch-resistant than the silver version. All panels fit snugly..'
I grew up around cameras like the Contax SLRs and the early Japanese SLRs:
'the industrial design—the styling—of the RTS was created by Porsche Design, which had recently been founded as an independent concern in Stuttgart by F.A. Porsche.'
p.9 #16 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
retrofocus wrote:
I also don't agree with this view. I waited since 2013 when Sony released their first series of FF MLC cameras to have a non-Leica brand making a FF camera which works perfectly with M lenses as rangefinder M cameras do. Guess what - it never happened. Reason is that other manufacturers focus their optimization on AF-based larger lenses with longer flange distance. That's why other MLCs have better compatibility with SLR and DSLR lenses but less with shorter flange rangefinder lenses. Even Panasonic L-Mount MLCs do not deliver here as well as Leica M cameras do.
Comparing this to well made manual focus lenses for another mount is also not a valid comparison: it is a totally different camera environment. In short: you can't and won't be able to mount M-mount lenses on different branded MLCs with adapter working 100% ideal at all focal lengths. It works with some brands being more feasible here than others mostly due to sensor stack thickness but it will never be as ideal as a digital Leica M camera is. No other manufacturer will optimize a FF MLC for rangefinder M lenses - it happened once with the Zeiss camera which flopped badly due to overpricing and provided performance. ...Show more →
You'd think that after a decade of witnessing all the foibles and myriad of ways that M lenses adapted to non-Leica bodies has revealed issues of performance degradation ... this ^ would NOT even need to be a point of discussion among M lens users.
We've seen hundreds / thousands of examples over the years. Fred's most excellent lens reviews have shown this over and over again ... in different levels of impact ... yet, the engineering is the engineering, the outcomes remain the same, that non-M bodies, not optimized for M lenses won't perform (consistently) as well as on the M for which it was designed (stack thickness, registration distance, etc.).
The Leica SL is probably the closest (stack thickness, microlens design, etc.).
p.9 #17 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Steve Spencer wrote:
Yeah, where I disagree with you is whether there will be competition or not. You think there won't be competition. I think there will be. I think we agree that if there is competition Leica won't do well.
With regard to competition, I think Sony and Nikon are not far away and with the help of Voigtlander and Thypoch they will offering a compelling alternative. The Sony A7CR shows to me that Sony has a commitment to a small EVF rangefinder type camera. A version II of that camera with a 5.7 million dot EVF and a full manual shutter, both of which I think are doable and I think Sony is there and with all the Voigtlander and Thypoch E mount lenses they would have, IMO, a compelling competitor.
Nikon is further away, but I wouldn't be surprised if they in the end made the better alternative. With the ZF they had a hit for people who want manual focus. If they did as good of a job with a rangefinder styled EVF camera and kept it small, then they would have a really compelling camera too. And again Voigtlander and Thypoch would offer a lot of lenses for that mount.
I know you guys don't think it is plausible these companies will compete, but let's just agree to disagree....Show more →
I think that if the universe of rangefinder lenses is in the M mount, then there won't be other manufacturers racing to develop a camera that is designed to be optimized for the M lenses.
That said, as Voigtlander and Thypoch bring more E-mount versions of rangefinder lenses to the the universe, that opens up to possibility of more rangefinder styled bodies. But, that still doesn't solve the optical compromises if they make it in a non-M mount, (i.e. optimized for E-mount), relative to adapting M lenses to it. Their other option is to then develop OEM E-mount manual lenses to complement 3rd party lens manufacturers contributions (Voigt, Thypoch, etc.).
Can they bring an electronic rangefinder experience to market, sure ... but the distinction between whether it targets the M mount lens universe or a different mount universe makes for two different sets of likelihoods, imo.
p.9 #18 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
raizans wrote:
If you look under the hood of an X100 or X-Pro, you'll see that the OLED screen of the EVF is in the way of the rangefinder spot's light path. There's no way to get around it.
p.9 #19 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
RustyBug wrote:
You'd think that after a decade of witnessing all the foibles and myriad of ways that M lenses adapted to non-Leica bodies has revealed issues of performance degradation ... this ^ would NOT even need to be a point of discussion among M lens users.
We've seen hundreds / thousands of examples over the years. Fred's most excellent lens reviews have shown this over and over again ... in different levels of impact ... yet, the engineering is the engineering, the outcomes remain the same, that non-M bodies, not optimized for M lenses won't perform (consistently) as well as on the M for which it was designed (stack thickness, registration distance, etc.).
The Leica SL is probably the closest (stack thickness, microlens design, etc.)....Show more →
+1. The SL is close, but the bit newer Nikon Zf is also pretty good in this regard from what I am reading. But again as mentioned earlier - both require adapter for M lenses and it is not a 100% given that all M or LTM lenses will perform to their best on non-M based cameras (often it's the wide and ultra-wide focal lengths which give some headaches here).
p.9 #20 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
The EVF-M doesn’t compete with other companies, which is why it will sell well. Having an EVF is far less important than the impact of the lens mount.
The EVF-M uniquely offers a coherent, seamless user experience for a lens system that is ergonomically ideal, fully manual, and optically unmatched in both variety and quality.
