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A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025

  
 
icarus_
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p.15 #1 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


stgrove wrote:
A Q3 with a 35mm lens will give you 30MP in FF. Easy to do with the Q3 28 these days. What are you waiting for?


My Q2 gave a very healthy 24MP in 35mm crop but there's a difference between cropping a 28mm image to 35mm and using an actual 35mm lens. Maybe not a big difference but you lose a bit of subject separation right?

Either way this is off-topic. I think if the goal is "M system with EVF", Leica's best bet would be to essentially make an interchangeable lens version of the Q cameras. The Q is an excellent camera in so many regards, that if you simply swap the fixed lens for an M-mount and somehow hold on to the weather sealing you'll have an absolute winner.



Feb 22, 2025 at 07:28 PM
stgrove
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p.15 #2 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


Not off topic at all since you and many others have mentioned the Q system as a possible expansion for an EVF ILC body. Many say "M with EVF". but I say "M sized camera with EVF."

IF Leica does an M sized camera with EVF as a ILC, then they can go to the drawing boards and come up with anything. Mr. Daniels has said that for him an EVF M sized camera would need AF lenses. That is not an off-hand comment from a serious Leica Manager with considerable experience and influence within the company.

Actually IF it is decided at Leica to do a new camera as an ILC, then why not make the lenses leaf shutter lenses? Well, as for ILC's. Leica has reserved this feature for the S system lenses in the past. Also as some have pointed out this could compete a bit too directly with the Q cameras if the Q is offered as an ILC. Are M sized cameras used with flash? Big unknowns here.

Then some have wanted a FF CL type of camera, but current FF SL lenses would seem too big for a smaller body of the CL size. Then this could open the door for a new smaller line of AF FF lenses. Is this too much for a small company like Leica to chew off?




Feb 23, 2025 at 10:27 AM
wolfloid
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p.15 #3 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


Then some have wanted a FF CL type of camera, but current FF SL lenses would seem too big for a smaller body of the CL size. Then this could open the door for a new smaller line of AF FF lenses. Is this too much for a small company like Leica to chew off?

You bring up some good points, but my guess is that this last question is the nub, and will not be the way Leica chooses to go, for exactly the reason you state. There are many FF systems out there with AF lenses. All of them take lenses that are far larger than M lenses, and so may as well go on larger (Sony) sized bodies, (or even the rather-too-large SL bodies).

There is, as yet no small FF body which can take complete advantage of the small, manual focus M lenses. Even the Svelte Sony A7C series, needs an adaptor, which already adds 10mm and to the length of every M lens, and at least 30 g extra. Those who like small and pocketable do not like that. It is also necessary to modify the sensor to allow many M lenses (mostly the small ones) to work well enough. The sensor mod is not at all convenient if you do not live in the US. All in all quite a Heath Robinson approach, and not optimal.

An EVF M, designed with an M mount, and the best user experience possible for focusing, would be a unique way to use these uniquely small, manual, M lens masterpieces.



Feb 23, 2025 at 11:31 AM
RustyBug
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p.15 #4 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


stgrove wrote:
Not off topic at all since you and many others have mentioned the Q system as a possible expansion for an EVF ILC body. Many say "M with EVF". but I say "M sized camera with EVF."

IF Leica does an M sized camera with EVF as a ILC, then they can go to the drawing boards and come up with anything. Mr. Daniels has said that for him an EVF M sized camera would need AF lenses. That is not an off-hand comment from a serious Leica Manager with considerable experience and influence within the company.

Actually IF it is decided
...Show more

https://www.macfilos.com/2022/10/18/leicas-stefan-daniel-on-the-retirement-of-the-leica-cl-and-some-hints-for-the-future/

With the comment about lamenting the demise of the APS-C sized CL ... which is still (imo) the closest form (shape, not sensor size) factor to an M (sized) camera ... I wouldn't be at all surprised if Mr. Daniels brings the CL (which is Compact L mount) vs. the SL (S size lenses, L mount) into the realm of the ML (M sized, L mount) and the continued option for using the S sized lenses and/or the M lenses via the L>M adapter. Of course, the choice to make it an M mount only remains viable. Imo, the most M-like experience with an EVF that I've used was the CL with M lenses adapted onto it.

To that end, whether you scale the CL to FF and put an L or M mount on it ... I could roll either way. The only question in my mind is if they make it M mount or L mount (+ adapter), but the form factor of the CL > ML upscaled just seems to make the most sense to me. And, if we go back to Mr. Daniel's sentiment about the CL, I'd be surprised to see a radical departure from a scaled CL > FF. Sure, who knows what the engineers will come up with ... but, the use of the L mount affords AF, if Mr. Daniels still wants to retain AF capability. If not, just a straight M mount works just fine, too.

Whether you take an SL and drop the grip, put the EVF in the corner and skinny it up by losing the IBIS ... or take a CL and scale it to FF, it's kinda the same thing that your target is "M-like".

Whether you work it from the bottom up, or the top down (or sideways from the Q) ... Goldilocks is still in the middle.



Feb 23, 2025 at 11:33 AM
stgrove
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p.15 #5 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


I, for one, just hope that if an EVF sized M comes out that it will not rely on the Fotos App for many function changes including ISO.


Feb 23, 2025 at 04:25 PM
philip_pj
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p.15 #6 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


'..as yet no small FF body which can take complete advantage of the small, manual focus M lenses.'

It's a deliberate ploy, obviously. You are talking about people who sell lenses by the million, all of them AF. Adapters to M are the hot item in light use cine going forward, for camera swaps. 10mm is actually a benefit, pushing focus/aperture rings out just enough to be more usable. 30g is 10% (or less) of most M lenses - M adapters fade away and become a part of the lens, in usage.

'The sensor mod is not at all convenient if you do not live in the US. All in all quite a Heath Robinson approach, and not optimal.'

Aircraft work, postal/courier services work. You end up with more simplicity, not less. It went very smoothly for me, thanks to the professionalism of Kolari's people. Fred has pointed out that the modified a7rII may deliver better images from M lenses than many Leica M cameras, and that has been my experience as well.



Feb 23, 2025 at 05:14 PM
philip_pj
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p.15 #7 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


It's also why I am a passionate supporter of an M-EVF, because I am already using something similar. Form-wise for the camera: just adopt the time-proven layout of a (more or less) centrally located and smoothed EVF bump on the M-sized and M-mount body, above and inline with the lens / lens mount axis - symmetry in haptics matters to a lot of photography.

And EVFs open many practical doors to new and diverse kinds of lenses, from fast UWAs to macros to teles. If it works, don't fix it, the SL3 is similar in form to the FM2 (minus Nikon's dial obsession). The a7c series is a cut down vlogger camera with serious compromises in the EVF department. Some struggle on with it, though.

How much does the M's RF linkage, the OVF and the RF window gear and mechanical connectivities weigh? How much do they stand to save off the 530 gram current body starting point?

You might see a 465 gram camera, that is what my a7r body weighs, with its still very functional and proven EVF. EVF cameras are also notoriously reliable, robust and durable.



Feb 23, 2025 at 05:15 PM
rscheffler
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p.15 #8 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


icarus_ wrote:
That said, I as an intermediate digital photographer shrink from the idea of not knowing what the white balance, exposure, color profile, etc of the image is before I click the shutter. Even if I had the cash and desire to buy into the M-system, I would definitely have a huge adjustment period looking through an optical viewfinder and having no idea if my exposure is correct before taking the shot. I have a Fuji X100VI in addition to my Q3, and I abandoned the optical/hybrid viewfinder in favor of EVF pretty early on.



This is one of the interesting aspects of the M system. There's a plethora of cameras that will show you everything and practically do everything for you, if you want. After a while, those cameras may make the photographic experience rather boring. There's no risk, no anticipation. Everything is very safe. With the M, there's much less hand-holding. You just have basic exposure settings, an optical viewfinder with frame lines that are only a compositional approximation, no depth of field preview, parallax considerations and fairly basic metering (at least in the older digital Ms). The process relies a fair amount on intuition, hand-eye motor skills, and pre-visualization. That's the risk. But I think it's also what draws a lot of the M users on this forum to the system. It's certainly a factor in my enjoyment of it. Each click of the shutter is kind of a challenge presented to you by the system: a test of whether or not your photographic instinct and intuition was correct for how you anticipated or pre-visualized the scene. It's kind of a halfway step back to shooting film, without the hassles of film (film shooters may disagree about it being a hassle ). You get the faster digital gratification, but there's still uncertainty with each exposure because it's an analog experience up until the image is captured digitally, so that when everything aligns correctly and you create a great image, or it's pretty much how you thought it should be, it's just that much more satisfying.

On paper, it's a system that is difficult to rationalize, based on features, compared to more mainstream options. And that's after ignoring the cost of entry, which is usually the most significant stumbling block, or argument against the 'value' of the system.

Ultimately I think you have to try the M to better understand it. And if you do, it helps to suspend your disbelief and every criticism you've read/heard about it, and just try it with an open mind.



Feb 23, 2025 at 10:03 PM
RustyBug
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p.15 #9 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


philip_pj wrote:

Form-wise for the camera: just adopt the time-proven layout of a (more or less) centrally located and smoothed EVF bump on the M-sized and M-mount body, above and inline with the lens / lens mount axis - symmetry in haptics matters to a lot of photography.


I think that one will be kinda polarizing for some folks. Imo, the EVF should be in the top left corner ... same as RF location, same as CL location, same as Q location, GX8, X-Pro, etc.

Part of the M form factor, includes the RF location that offers the camera to "not block the face" as much as when the VF is centrally located. As to the symmetry in haptics, it is a very easy thing to swing the camera from landscape to portrait orientation, pivoting around a top left corner location ... a different, yet still, "time-proven" location (imo). And, since it is EVF, concerns over parallax are mitigated.



Feb 23, 2025 at 11:01 PM
icarus_
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p.15 #10 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


rscheffler wrote:
This is one of the interesting aspects of the M system. There's a plethora of cameras that will show you everything and practically do everything for you, if you want. After a while, those cameras may make the photographic experience rather boring. There's no risk, no anticipation. Everything is very safe. With the M, there's much less hand-holding. You just have basic exposure settings, an optical viewfinder with frame lines that are only a compositional approximation, no depth of field preview, parallax considerations and fairly basic metering (at least in the older digital Ms). The process relies a fair amount
...Show more

You're not wrong, and there are of course many unique elements to shooting with an M camera that the modern digital camera has obviated (for better or worse is debatable). Among those are as you pointed out, the tension (or frustration!) of not confirming you have the shot you want before clicking the shutter. Others include the mandatory manual focusing, the relative bulk and poor ergos (c'mon Leica), and the possible failure of the rangefinder coupling with time.

What some would consider faults or annoyances, others consider an artistic challenge and an homage to what photography used to be before the computers got ahold of it. And of course, there are people in every subgroup who either just want an M with autofocus, or just want a lighter M, etc.

The big lynch pin of the M-system to me is the direct lineage Leica has to 70 years' worth of lenses, which is just so cool from a technical and artistic standpoint. You can in 2025 shoot with a 60MP digital camera, using a lens from 1955. Or conversely, you can strap a modern Nokton lens to your old M3 and unlock a new world of possibilities. Swapping to an EVF preserves this lineage, and if they can find some way to sneak in some weather sealing and lightness that would be even more icing on the cake.



Feb 24, 2025 at 04:46 AM
 


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wolfloid
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p.15 #11 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


Adapters to M are the hot item in light use cine going forward, for camera swaps. 10mm is actually a benefit, pushing focus/aperture rings out just enough to be more usable. 30g is 10% (or less) of most M lenses - M adapters fade away and become a part of the lens, in usage.

You are referring to cine use, which I have no experience of, and you may well be right. I’m talking about stills use, where very slight modifications to camera and lens size make a great deal of difference if you want the camera to be as portable and handy as possible. Optimisation is very important. For all its strengths and advantages, the Leica Q is nowhere near as portable or handy as a Fuji X100VI, which is why some Fuji users would never buy a Q.



Feb 24, 2025 at 08:43 AM
stgrove
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p.15 #12 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


RustyBug wrote:
I think that one will be kinda polarizing for some folks. Imo, the EVF should be in the top left corner ... same as RF location, same as CL location, same as Q location, GX8, X-Pro, etc.

Part of the M form factor, includes the RF location that offers the camera to "not block the face" as much as when the VF is centrally located. As to the symmetry in haptics, it is a very easy thing to swing the camera from landscape to portrait orientation, pivoting around a top left corner location ... a different, yet still, "time-proven" location (imo).
...Show more

Oh Yes! Top left corner is the ONLY place I want it on an M-sized/like camera IMHO.



Feb 24, 2025 at 12:55 PM
ottokbre
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p.15 #13 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


Sigma comes out with a new minimal body and, much like the Lumix S9, omits the EVF altogether.

It's been years and the ONLY camera with an RF oriented EVF in FF is the Sony A7C. Both the Fuji XE and the Leica CL are better experiences but I am not going back to crop.

This just seems like a no brainer. Revive the CL and make it FF. Collect the checks.



Feb 24, 2025 at 02:37 PM
rscheffler
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p.15 #14 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


icarus_ wrote:
The big lynch pin of the M-system to me is the direct lineage Leica has to 70 years' worth of lenses, which is just so cool from a technical and artistic standpoint. You can in 2025 shoot with a 60MP digital camera, using a lens from 1955. Or conversely, you can strap a modern Nokton lens to your old M3 and unlock a new world of possibilities. Swapping to an EVF preserves this lineage, and if they can find some way to sneak in some weather sealing and lightness that would be even more icing on the cake.


I'm pretty sure since the M240 the bodies have some degree of weather sealing. I've used that camera in wet/rain/snow and I its only weakness is the EVF port.

As for the lenses, while they lack a gasket on the mount that is common now with many other systems, based on an interview by David Farkas with Leica during Photokina 2012, it was stated that M lenses are built to tight tolerances and the lubrication of moving parts effectively acts as a form of weather sealing. No, they're not fully waterproof, but they're also not electronic. While I wouldn't advocate leaving the equipment exposed during a downpour, I think the notion that the M system is not durable in inclement weather is inaccurate, based on personal experience.



Feb 24, 2025 at 02:46 PM
RustyBug
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p.15 #15 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


ottokbre wrote:
This just seems like a no brainer. Revive the CL and make it FF. Collect the checks.


Yup.

Seeing Sigma "reviving the TL / TL2" with its BF into FF ... hmmm, maybe there's hope for the CL to grow up to FF. Sigma gets the TL > FF, Leica takes the CL > FF.



Feb 24, 2025 at 03:45 PM
icarus_
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p.15 #16 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


rscheffler wrote:
I'm pretty sure since the M240 the bodies have some degree of weather sealing. I've used that camera in wet/rain/snow and I its only weakness is the EVF port.

As for the lenses, while they lack a gasket on the mount that is common now with many other systems, based on an interview by David Farkas with Leica during Photokina 2012, it was stated that M lenses are built to tight tolerances and the lubrication of moving parts effectively acts as a form of weather sealing. No, they're not fully waterproof, but they're also not electronic. While I wouldn't advocate
...Show more

It's probably a mental thing, but having the brand say there's weather sealing on the whole system (body + lens) gives more confidence to take it out in rain. At least, that's how I felt when I was shooting with my A7C and 50mm G lens in a typical London winter with off and on rain all day.



Feb 24, 2025 at 08:29 PM
stgrove
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p.15 #17 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


Agree and on the Leica SL they even give the IP rating which most don't provide.

Edited on Feb 25, 2025 at 08:51 AM · View previous versions



Feb 25, 2025 at 07:51 AM
retrofocus
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p.15 #18 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


rscheffler wrote:
I'm pretty sure since the M240 the bodies have some degree of weather sealing. I've used that camera in wet/rain/snow and I its only weakness is the EVF port.

As for the lenses, while they lack a gasket on the mount that is common now with many other systems, based on an interview by David Farkas with Leica during Photokina 2012, it was stated that M lenses are built to tight tolerances and the lubrication of moving parts effectively acts as a form of weather sealing. No, they're not fully waterproof, but they're also not electronic. While I wouldn't advocate
...Show more

+1. I can see sports photographers and some journalists for example benefitting from fully weather sealed cameras. Me as amateur, I have only needed it two times in the past 25 years of photography. One time during a trip in a humid Florida forest with my Canon 5D MkII, and another time close to waterfalls with water mist spraying all over with my Leica M6. In the latter case, I used a rain cover gasket over my M6 with attached lens and encountered no issues. For me personally, weather sealing is not in my top priorities for a new camera to have.



Feb 25, 2025 at 08:01 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.15 #19 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


retrofocus wrote:
+1. I can see sports photographers and some journalists for example benefitting from fully weather sealed cameras. Me as amateur, I have only needed it two times in the past 25 years of photography. One time during a trip in a humid Florida forest with my Canon 5D MkII, and another time close to waterfalls with water mist spraying all over with my Leica M6. In the latter case, I used a rain cover gasket over my M6 with attached lens and encountered no issues. For me personally, weather sealing is not in my top priorities for a new camera
...Show more

Exactly how I feel. If it is bad enough weather that I worry about weather sealing, then I generally don't want to be out shooting, but then I am a wimp that way. Of course, I understand that it is a priority to others.



Feb 25, 2025 at 08:13 AM
RustyBug
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p.15 #20 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


retrofocus wrote:
+1. I can see sports photographers and some journalists for example benefitting from fully weather sealed cameras. Me as amateur, I have only needed it two times in the past 25 years of photography. One time during a trip in a humid Florida forest with my Canon 5D MkII, and another time close to waterfalls with water mist spraying all over with my Leica M6. In the latter case, I used a rain cover gasket over my M6 with attached lens and encountered no issues. For me personally, weather sealing is not in my top priorities for a new camera
...Show more

My engineering mindset always is attracted to great weather sealing. But, like many ... I've never really been "bit hard" by a lack of it. In my mind (a curious place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there ), the precision machining (the more precise, the better) between the lens / mount affords a level of ingress protection ... but, that junction doesn't have the o-ring styled of protection that the more robustly rated lens / mount combinations have.

My two areas of experience with this were first felt on my old Canon A-1, where the salt spray of my oceanic / surf shooting developed into a corrosion issue inside the shutter release contacts.

The other one was a trip to Antelope Canyon ... without a "rated combo". I just grabbed a ziploc bag and a rubber band for a DIY solution to mitigate the ingress.

So, weather sealing is appreciated, and its effects can be real ... but, it isn't my first priority. That said, I've mentioned elsewhere that if I was going to do extreme amounts of monochrome work in industrial (coal mines, oil refineries, etc.) ... I'd probably grab that Pentax K-3 Monochrome for the weather sealing that Pentax brings to the table. For now, I'm doing okay with the M's, and a little care, along the way whenever I venture into less than friendly environments.



Feb 25, 2025 at 08:20 AM
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