p.6 #1 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Steve Spencer wrote:
I think there are dangers either way Leica goes. If Leica makes this small EVF camera with M mount, then I think it is either a very niche market for some M users who would prefer an EVF to a rangefinder basically a small subcategory of M cameras or it becomes the de facto M mount camera and they might alienate the M user base. Any slow introduction of M cameras with a rangefinder or complaints about those cameras can easily become magnified: people will be looking for "are they abandoning the rangefinder?" Both problems are even possible. It is only a niche product that alienates the M user base. In this scenario, this new camera becomes the typical M mount camera and the classic M with an optical rangefinder becomes like the current D models that don't have the LCD. ...Show more →
I disagree here that the market for an EVF-M would be very niche. Leica Forum made a survey not long ago resulting in high interest of M users in such camera. An often expressed interest derived from elderly users where EVF would be beneficial over OVF due to their eyesight issues. Others expressed interest to use EVF in situations where OVF is lacking - for example for close-up photography or in architecture to just name two areas. Only very few saw themselves "alienated" by such addition - and it clearly is an an addition NOT a replacement of the existing traditional rangefinder M line as the article also clearly stated. I clearly see the EVF-M opening a new market for Leica instead of alienating somehow a user base.
I don't think that would be good for Leica and may lead Leica M users to defect to other cameras. Especially, if other manufacturers built competing cameras as I presume they would.
I rather see Leica M users jump ship to other MLC brands if such EVF-M would not come to fruition! If M users can't use the traditional M for eyesight issues for example what other choice do they currently have? The bulky SL?! They would rather go with Nikon Zf for example as better alternative!
If they make an EVF camera with M mount, now competitors can easily come along and make it hard for them to compete and charge typical Leica prices.
If people wanted to do this, they have already kind of alternative options out there like the Nikon Zf.
p.6 #3 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
retrofocus wrote:
I rather see Leica M users jump ship to other MLC brands if such EVF-M would not come to fruition! If M users can't use the traditional M for eyesight issues for example what other choice do they currently have? The bulky SL?! They would rather go with Nikon Zf for example as better alternative!
If people wanted to do this, they have already kind of alternative options out there like the Nikon Zf.
From a business perspective, I think they have to be careful that the EVF-M does not dilute the brand value of Leica. The current M-system has tons of competitors - used market examples, nikon zf, sony a7cr, and the list goes on. Similarly, lenses are commoditized - Voigtlander, TTartisan, Thypoch etc...
The main defensible competitive advantages Leica has are its brand and product differentiation. If customers conclude that a Leica M with a EVF is no different than a Nikon ZF with a Voigtlander lens, it could cost them massively. There is a psychological differentiation that exists today that an EVF-M might shatter.
As a good example, look at their poor traction with the SL system that they themselves have admitted - we see the limits of their brand value in selling APS-C and full frame mirrorless cameras and lenses. Here there's very little psychological or actual differentiation and the results show for it.
p.6 #4 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
My specific take on sensor size is once back to the 24MP sensor a la SL3S I do not need nor want another 60MP camera. I don't even need a 40MP sensor.
IF they could use the SL3S sensor (with how I use it with MF lenses) in an M then we might be able to perfect using out M MF lenses on a new EVF sized M.
p.6 #5 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
retrofocus wrote:
If I need to use an adapter on the EVF-M to use it with my M lenses, this would be a red flag/bummer for me.
I think we are talking about different solutions...
If Leica makes a true EVF-M, then you shouldn't need an adapter. I just don't think that this is coming. I could be wrong, but Leica, if anything, has done everything it can not to alter the basic ethos of an M camera. Maybe they are going to dump their traditionalist history and make an X1-Pro like body, but they have been resistant to do so. They've had the technology to make an EVF M for almost 10 years now, and the closest they've come is an add on EVF adapter so they can continue to provide a true rangefinder for focusing.
I, like others, think that the CL digital is the appropriate platform for an EVF camera with a rangefinder style. Given that this platform was designed for the L mount, I suggested that they release a few L-Mount lenses using M-Mount designs in a manual focus/manual aperture housing. This would allow for people to buy lenses that do not require adapters. For those who already have M glass, they can continue to use the M to T adapters on the new EVF body.
If Leica were to make an EVF-M camera with a traditional rangefinder as well, they will have a hit, but the cost will be $10,000 or more... I guess that works for some, but not for a large number of Leica users.
p.6 #6 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
"Leica Society International sent out a survey to its members about the long-rumored Leica M camera with a built-in EVF:
We are not talking about replacing the classic M rangefinder with an electronic version. We are talking about adding an alternative to the rangefinder within the M line."
-If you want to Beta test the so-rumored Leica "EVF-M" camera, attach the Leica Visoflex 2 to your M11x camera and use with your current M-lenses.
-There is a probability the first "EVF-M" will be no more than an M11 with a built-in EVF, specifically the EVF from the Visoflex 2, a 3.7MP OLED panel w/ image stabilization in the EVF display and the rangefinder will have been removed. Not a lot more there technically or any major new features.
-Perhaps Leica will throw in a few other easily implemented electronic bells and whistle features. But again, I wouldn't expect any major new technical features in this first EVF-M model. This camera will not be a budget camera as some on the forums might dream. The M11-P currently sells US $9135 and the M11-D, US $9350 for an idea of the EVF-M price range.
-The M12 will as expected continue on as Leica's next line of bread and butter M camera system, with of course the traditional rangefinder.
-The EVF-M like the M11 series, will support M-mount lenses. Nothing more, nothing less. There will be no special lenses created for the EVF-M camera.
"Here are some of the question asked in the LSI survey:
-Would you be willing to purchase, at a price similar to an M11, a Leica “M-type” camera, that followed the form of an M camera, with a M mount, but with an EVF instead of an optical rangefinder?
-Which camera system is your primary system now?
-What is your secondary camera system?
-For your use, do you see an EVF M camera as a substitute for a rangefinder M or a complement to one?
-What is your age range?
-What region do you live in?"
p.6 #7 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
tzhang4284 wrote:
As a good example, look at their poor traction with the SL system that they themselves have admitted - we see the limits of their brand value in selling APS-C and full frame mirrorless cameras and lenses. Here there's very little psychological or actual differentiation and the results show for it.
The lackluster success of the SL and the main competitive *disadvantage* of a rangefinder are what the EVF-M address: it provides a TTL viewfinder, but with a compact body and the small, manual focus lenses of M-mount. I’m pretty sure that the EVF-M (done right) will lead to much higher sales of M-mount lenses and much larger user base. Augmenting the comprehensiveness of the system by offering both rangefinder and EVF bodies for the same lens mount could also lead to a more compelling system overall.
p.6 #8 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
While it's enjoyable to speculate, we are short on much-needed data. Here are two key items that would shed light on the issue:
How many digital Leica M users also use a mainstream EVF camera for the things for which the RF cameras are disadvantaged?; and: How many digital Leica M users frequently use and carry the slide in EVF device?
Many users of the current EVF cameras want small, lean and functional cameras, witness the a7c series, which looks very successful. It's small and 510 grams, against the M11 at 530 grams, and Nikon's 'back to their future' Zf, at 710 grams.
Leica's RF apparatus - I can't find the weight of this gear but it might be rather more than expected. Sony's RX1 slide on EVF weighed 26 grams, Leica's Visoflex 2 tips the scales at 92 grams.
Feb 11, 2025 at 05:45 PM
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p.6 #9 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
retrofocus wrote:
I disagree here that the market for an EVF-M would be very niche. Leica Forum made a survey not long ago resulting in high interest of M users in such camera. An often expressed interest derived from elderly users where EVF would be beneficial over OVF due to their eyesight issues. Others expressed interest to use EVF in situations where OVF is lacking - for example for close-up photography or in architecture to just name two areas. Only very few saw themselves "alienated" by such addition - and it clearly is an an addition NOT a replacement of the existing traditional rangefinder M line as the article also clearly stated. I clearly see the EVF-M opening a new market for Leica instead of alienating somehow a user base.
I rather see Leica M users jump ship to other MLC brands if such EVF-M would not come to fruition! If M users can't use the traditional M for eyesight issues for example what other choice do they currently have? The bulky SL?! They would rather go with Nikon Zf for example as better alternative!
If people wanted to do this, they have already kind of alternative options out there like the Nikon Zf.
I don't think I was very clear. I didn't say I thought the market for a small EVF Leica with an M lens mount would be niche. I don't know if it would be niche or not. I said it would either be niche or would threaten Leica's monopoly position for rangefinder cameras. If rangefinder cameras are not what is driving M mount camera sales then Leica wouldn't be in a monopoly position any more (i.e., the only ones selling that type of camera). They would just be one of many manufacturers with small EVF based cameras. I think that could be a tough position for Leica and I think they would struggle selling that camera in much they way they struggle selling SL cameras.
Said another way, I think Leica at least partly succeeds so well selling rangefinder cameras because they have a monopoly. I don't think they will do nearly as well selling a small EVF based camera whether it is M mount or L mount. They won't have a monopoly for that type of camera regardless of what mount it has and Leica simply doesn't compete well against other camera makers, IMO, and without a monopoly they will have to compete and won't do very well, or at least that is what I expect.
So, I don't see this small EVF based Leica camera doing all that well in the long run and if it cuts into rangefinder camera sales at all, it could end up hurting Leica. To me the rangefinder monopoly is the goose that lays the golden eggs for Leica and I think they risk injuring that goose if they make this small EVF based camera with an M mount.
Now I could easily be wrong and I hope I am. I think I will be wrong if Leica is truly innovative in making this camera and has a much better way to use an EVF for manual focus, but if the camera is just using an EVF in much the same way that cameras that are already being produced do, then I don't think Leica will do very well with this camera in the long run.
p.6 #11 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
I could see this being a success if they stick with M-mount and provide some effective simulated-RF focusing aids as well as the other MF focusing aids that the Z-system and the Fuji system have.
p.6 #12 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
philip_pj wrote:
While it's enjoyable to speculate, we are short on much-needed data. Here are two key items that would shed light on the issue:
How many digital Leica M users also use a mainstream EVF camera for the things for which the RF cameras are disadvantaged?; and: How many digital Leica M users frequently use and carry the slide in EVF device?
Many users of the current EVF cameras want small, lean and functional cameras, witness the a7c series, which looks very successful. It's small and 510 grams, against the M11 at 530 grams, and Nikon's 'back to their future' Zf, at 710 grams.
Leica's RF apparatus - I can't find the weight of this gear but it might be rather more than expected. Sony's RX1 slide on EVF weighed 26 grams, Leica's Visoflex 2 tips the scales at 92 grams....Show more →
FWIW, the Leica Visoflex 2, EVF in total @ 93 grams includes a black anodized aluminium frame and equally wide and hinged black anodized, aluminium hot shoe with magnets. No idea what might be the weight of the EVF glass/OLED display alone without the frame, hinged hotshot and magnets. Perhaps 1/2 the total weight or less?
p.6 #15 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
retrofocus wrote:
If I need to use an adapter on the EVF-M to use it with my M lenses, this would be a red flag/bummer for me.
On paper, that sounds like a bummer. In reality, put the L > M adapter on and leave it on ... just use your M lenses and don't even bother with L glass.
I've had the L > M adapter on both my former CL and my current SL2-S. I roll with mine on and only take off the adapter when I want to use my 500/5.6. While I do have an L mount lens in the form of the Panny 85/1.8 ... I never use it (bundled with body, when purchased). I just keep my adapter on and use my M mount (24 / 35 / 40 / 50 / 75 / 135) lenses on the L body via the adapter. That way, I can roll with two M mount bodies. One, native M10-R (or M246) and the SL2-S for when I feel the desire for lower light or IBIS or EVF use case.
Personally, I think the practical move is to put it in an L mount + L > M adapter. HOWEVER, I think the "emotional" move (for the legacy faithful market) is to make it a dedicated M mount.
p.6 #16 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
RustyBug wrote:
On paper, that sounds like a bummer. In reality, put the L > M adapter on and leave it on ... just use your M lenses and don't even bother with L glass.
I've had the L > M adapter on both my former CL and my current SL2-S. I roll with mine on and only take off the adapter when I want to use my 500/5.6. While I do have an L mount lens in the form of the Panny 85/1.8 ... I never use it (bundled with body, when purchased). I just keep my adapter on and use my M mount (24 / 35 / 40 / 50 / 75 / 135) lenses on the L body....Show more →
But if you want the six bit lens info you have to mount the adapter to the lens before attaching to the body.
In any case the Leica M camera with EVF will be native M and manual focus. It will be an option. The RF onky M cameras will continue evolving as a line.
p.6 #17 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
1bwana1 wrote:
But if you want the six bit lens info you have to mount the adapter to the lens before attaching to the body.
In any case the Leica M camera with EVF will be native M and manual focus. It will be an option. The RF onky M cameras will continue evolving as a line.
Then, just get two adapters, and you'll always have one ready to put on the lens before swapping lenses. But, really I don't see either the big need for the lens info (yes, I understand it) in critical situations where you "don't have time" to swap the adapter, or the big inconvenience of using the adapter ... i.e. trivial, and I'd not let it keep me from having the EVF, if the EVF is what I'm wanting.
What, you want EVF ... AND ... lens info.
Spoiled, I tell ya ... what are ya gonna do with the kids, these days.
p.6 #18 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
It's more than possible many more outsiders will want in for such an M camera than M users that would be disturbed by the move, should it come to pass. There are ongoing adapter, color and aberration issues for Sony and Nikon users, even with Kolari.
Leica knows manual focus lenses better than anyone (an understatement), and now they have lessons learned from the SL system that can be used to do them justice, for those that prefer EVF and want to shoot a wider range of lens focal lengths.
Electronic cameras are cheaper to manufacture, they may keep it bare bones (no Nikon style 'autofocus' help) and give us the best EVF camera yet. It's a bright future. SL2-S bodies are $3K new at B&H right now, just $1200 more than the Zf.
If they are prepared to give up the M surcharge, it's theirs to lose. They can sell the RFs as the traditional model lines for market separation, and ensure retained value that way.
p.6 #20 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
For me, sticking with the M mount is paramount: there's too much brand (and photographer!) equity tied to all those tiny lenses. Also, there's likely an opportunity to recoup more space from removing the rangefinder assembly than will be needed by an EVF (perhaps fulfilling my dream of an M2-sized digital M mount camera). I think the reception of the larger M bodies (M5, M7) is probably something Leica would do well to remember. But Leica will need to find a way to blend the speed of the rangefinder focusing experience with an EVF, and balancing what's lost (e.g., seeing outside the frame) with what's gained (electronic visualization and focusing aids).
While I am getting old (less steady hands, weaker eyes, etc.), I'd see a Leica E(VF) M mount body as a supplement to my M2 and M11, not as a replacement, and I suspect I'd not be alone in this. Also, there's the change to broaden their appeal outside of the rangefinder faithful.
