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A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025

  
 
retrofocus
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p.5 #1 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


raizans wrote:
I don稚 see why a rangefinder-style L-mount camera couldn稚 be made someday. They could always add some small L-mount lenses.


Technically possible but why? Biggest advantage of the M-mount system is the compact body and lens size. If AF is used, lenses become physically larger. This is the main reason why Leica's L-mount lenses are so bulky similar to other DSLR and modern MLC lenses. Why would anyone bother with rangefinder manual focus with bulky L-lenses - maybe third party L-lenses are cheaper compared to M-lenses, but if pricing is the issue, I would rather directly choose an EVF-based MLC from Sony, Nikon, or Canon in the first place.



Feb 10, 2025 at 10:10 PM
raizans
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p.5 #2 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025




retrofocus wrote:
Why would anyone bother with rangefinder manual focus with bulky L-lenses - maybe third party L-lenses are cheaper compared to M-lenses, but if pricing is the issue, I would rather directly choose an EVF-based MLC from Sony, Nikon, or Canon in the first place.


No, not that. I知 talking about small L-mount lenses on a small L-mount camera that is rangefinder-style with the EVF in the corner, instead of SLR-style with the EVF centered over the lens.



Feb 10, 2025 at 11:08 PM
henk.sijgers
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p.5 #3 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


rscheffler wrote:
The M11 has several weaknesses, primarily the slow readout of the sensor, which means e-shutter is prone to rolling shutter effects. IMO a truly silent and usable M with a stacked sensor seems like such a 'no-brainer' that I'm surprised Leica put the slow 60MP sensor in the M11 instead of the fast 50MP from the a1, unless of course that one wasn't available from Sony.

To me the M is a handheld camera for dynamic situations and a stacked sensor would be very welcome.

And if not stacked, then EFCS needs to be added as an option in addition to
...Show more

This is a great analysis. Personally I'd like something that honors the core values of the M system (as I see them): the compact body and ergonomics and the small manual-focus lenses. The SL system (and the R before it) are too bulky for my tastes (my L mount is a Lumix S5ii mostly used to scan 35mm negatives) and so are their lenses.

Leveraging PDAF, a high-res EVF, and focus recognition/aids to provide a "smart electronic viewfinder" for M mount lenses seems like a thoroughly modern take on the rangefinder camera concept. Ideally this would also allow a complete return to the film M body size (i.e., a little shorter, like my M2). Punch in is great, but Leica should prioritize speed to focus, the way rangefinders do (and fortunately the EVF removes the calibration concerns).

I'd prefer IBIS, but not at the cost of M240 thickness: my hands are small so I found the M240 somewhat awkward to operate. I find that I simply shoot my M11 at 36MP, so a return to an M10R resolution sensor would not bother me. I don't know the difference in materials, manufacturing, and assembly costs of a high-end EVF vs a Rangefinder unit, but I wonder if the swap really means [I]that[/I] big a price increase (not that it wouldn't be used to justify one).

In summary: M2 size, M mount, swap rangefinder for EVF, design the focusing experience to prioritize speed, and return image resolution to ~40MP and I start wondering what items and body parts I can sell to fund the purchase. As an adjunct to the M2 and M11 of course.



Feb 10, 2025 at 11:53 PM
henk.sijgers
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p.5 #4 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


Oh, and keep the dials, buttons, and back screen consistent with the M / Q bodies. I don't mind touch screens, but I do not want them as my only means of interacting with the camera!


Feb 10, 2025 at 11:55 PM
retrofocus
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p.5 #5 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


raizans wrote:
No, not that. I知 talking about small L-mount lenses on a small L-mount camera that is rangefinder-style with the EVF in the corner, instead of SLR-style with the EVF centered over the lens.


Doubt that we will see small L-mount lenses (potentially manual focus lenses in L-mount for example). But yes, the location of the EVF is open at this point - I agree with you, it would be nice to have it in the corner similar to the traditional M.



Feb 11, 2025 at 07:35 AM
RustyBug
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p.5 #6 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


retrofocus wrote:
Doubt that we will see small L-mount lenses (potentially manual focus lenses in L-mount for example). But yes, the location of the EVF is open at this point - I agree with you, it would be nice to have it in the corner similar to the traditional M.


Sigma is the Alliance party making the "small" L-mount lenses in the Contemporary Series. Getting even smaller than that (AF lenses) is probably the point where you jump out of AF and stick with manual focus glass.

And, yes ... put the VF in the CORNER (M, CL, GX8, etc.)

FF CL in M mount ... it's what folks have been asking for a long time. When / will it ever happen ... only Karbe knows that one.



Feb 11, 2025 at 08:15 AM
OwlsEyes
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p.5 #7 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


RustyBug wrote:
Sigma is the Alliance party making the "small" L-mount lenses in the Contemporary Series. Getting even smaller than that (AF lenses) is probably the point where you jump out of AF and stick with manual focus glass.

And, yes ... put the VF in the CORNER (M, CL, GX8, etc.)

FF CL in M mount ... it's what folks have been asking for a long time. When / will it ever happen ... only Karbe knows that one.


I'm with you on this... Leica does not need to do a lot of work to make a full frame CL Digital body. They already have a brilliant design platform with the APS-C CL... They could equally modify it to match the M dial configuration.
As I indicated before, Leica could then use the basic design of the the M-Series summicrons, put this in an L-Mount manual focus and manual aperture housing (like the sigma retro-styling L-mount series), and you'd have all manual M-like performance with an EVF. It would eliminate the need for an adapter, and I'm sure many SL body users would buy these lenses as well.

This allows the M-line to continue as is, create an upgrade path of Q-users, and add a unique option to SL users.

bruce



Feb 11, 2025 at 10:44 AM
wolfloid
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p.5 #8 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


put this in an L-Mount manual focus and manual aperture housing (like the sigma retro-styling L-mount series), and you'd have all manual M-like performance with an EVF.

It would, but it would also necessitate remodelling all the M mount lenses. This will be a major investment, and it is not what most people have been asking for, and certainly not those who just want an easier way to focus their existing M lenses. It would also make all the lenses larger, and heavier - a no go for many users. It would be a provocative act of alienating all those existing customers, so I doubt they値l do that.

The only advantage gained that I can see to compensate for annoying their existing customer base would be to allow them to build in better communication with the camera. But is that even necessary? I think not.



Feb 11, 2025 at 12:33 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.5 #9 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


wolfloid wrote:
It would, but it would also necessitate remodelling all the M mount lenses. This will be a major investment, and it is not what most people have been asking for, and certainly not those who just want an easier way to focus their existing M lenses. It would also make all the lenses larger, and heavier - a no go for many users. It would be a provocative act of alienating all those existing customers, so I doubt they値l do that.

The only advantage gained that I can see to compensate for annoying their existing customer base would be to allow
...Show more

It might be worth it to build in that communication if it allows better focus aids. I think the key to a small EVF camera designed to be used with manual focus lenses is the quality of the manual focus aids. They need to be really good. IMO, you need a really nice EVF and really good focus aids for this camera to have any traction regardless of whether it has an L mount or an M mount.

If they choose an M mount, they have a lot of continuity and a lot of lenses available on day 1. If they choose an L mount, then over time they should be able to offer all new lenses and whatever old lenses they want to rework in L mount and perhaps build in better capability, but in the short-term M lenses will have to be used with an adapter. Of course, choosing the L mount will let them offer AF lenses as well if they decide to do that. Some people might like to use the Summicron L APO lenses with this camera, but I would expect they would want to make brand new AF lenses that are smaller and lighter and designed with this camera in mind. So, if they go L mount then they would, IMO, need to modify quite a few existing lenses and make some new ones, which they might see as a barrier or they might see as an opportunity to sell a bunch of new lenses.



Feb 11, 2025 at 12:49 PM
RustyRus
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p.5 #10 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


wolfloid wrote:
It would, but it would also necessitate remodelling all the M mount lenses. This will be a major investment, and it is not what most people have been asking for, and certainly not those who just want an easier way to focus their existing M lenses. It would also make all the lenses larger, and heavier - a no go for many users. It would be a provocative act of alienating all those existing customers, so I doubt they値l do that.

The only advantage gained that I can see to compensate for annoying their existing customer base would be to allow
...Show more

AF cameras are everywhere-

Find a better way of doing MF with an EVF and (not focus peaking) and how to deliver something new and exciting for the market.

Th attraction to M mount is the experience and the lenses- L mount is barely limping along while M mount has a new lens every couple weeks from somewhere-

I hope Leica set one goal-

Create the Range Finder expierence on EVF- Revolutionize the market and disrupt themselves by creating an EVF just as good if not better than the RF patch.




Feb 11, 2025 at 01:00 PM
 


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retrofocus
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p.5 #11 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


Steve Spencer wrote:
It might be worth it to build in that communication if it allows better focus aids. I think the key to a small EVF camera designed to be used with manual focus lenses is the quality of the manual focus aids. They need to be really good. IMO, you need a really nice EVF and really good focus aids for this camera to have any traction regardless of whether it has an L mount or an M mount.

If they choose an M mount, they have a lot of continuity and a lot of lenses available on day 1.
...Show more

Your analysis is correct but as I mentioned earlier here, I highly doubt Leica will go the L route with the EVF-M even Leica has committed itself to the L-mount in the past. An EVF-M with L-mount would torpedo significantly further SL sales which are already below expectations. I don't think Leica wants to risk this. The M-mount is a much safer bet here for Leica since it won't compete with either the SL nor the Q-series due to lack of AF capabilities. It can be seen more as addition to existing traditional M cameras - I certainly will second this from my intent by potentially in the future getting the EVF-M. I would not dismiss any of my existing M cameras for it and might additionally invest also in the future in a newer rangefinder M-based camera.



Feb 11, 2025 at 01:02 PM
Oldwino
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p.5 #12 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


retrofocus wrote:
An EVF-M with L-mount would torpedo significantly further SL sales which are already below expectations. I don't think Leica wants to risk this. The M-mount is a much safer bet here for Leica since it won't compete with either the SL nor the Q-series due to lack of AF capabilities.


Of course, the existence of a L-Mount EVF-M could help save the L-Mount, if indeed SL sales are so bad.



Feb 11, 2025 at 01:17 PM
RustyBug
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p.5 #13 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


RustyRus wrote:
better than the RF patch.



Imo ... THIS ^ is the real task.

Most folks think that the EVF is the solution. It is one way to skin the cat.

If they come up with an optical solution that is a significant improvement ... it doesn't need to be EVF, necessarily. The patch is legacy technology ... come up with engineering (optical, electronic, etc. ) technology / approach that raises the bar on the VF experience and they'll have a winner, even if it isn't EVF.

You could even do something like "keep the patch", and incorporate an adjustable diopter lens so folks can "zoom in" on the patch, and / or use a partial ground glass area to overlay the surround outside the frame lines, or


EVF doesn't HAVE to be the solution. Although, at the moment it seems to be the "most obvious" solution to what the market is asking for ... simply put, an alternative VF to the existing patch experience. Mechanically, the patch is solid ... optically, folks are looking for something that raises / changes the bar.

One thing I've noticed about Leica ... they like to stagger / leap-frog / offset their way into the future from the past. Kinda leaves it "ya never know" how they're gonna go from yesterday to tomorrow ... when, how or at what interval of implementation.



Feb 11, 2025 at 01:20 PM
retrofocus
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p.5 #14 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


Oldwino wrote:
Of course, the existence of a L-Mount EVF-M could help save the L-Mount, if indeed SL sales are so bad.


In this case such move would equal a surrender of the SL line. I find it highly unlikely at this point, but it is possible in the future that Leica is forced to rethink their SL camera body approach if sales for an EVF-M pick up and exceed expectations in opposite to SL sales. An EVF-L has potential then.



Feb 11, 2025 at 01:30 PM
shujert
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p.5 #15 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


I totally agree with RustyBug. I don稚 buy that an EVF M-mount camera offers a better experience than the optical patch. It solves a couple of issues, sure, but if the experience is just going to be like any other EVF with manual focusing aids, no thanks. I gave the Zf with M lenses a shot, and despite all its hype as the latest and greatest for manual focusing, the experience is still nowhere as quick or engaging as the rangefinder patch.

I do get the advantages of an EVF, but I知 very skeptical. Very curious to see what Leica is up to though.



Feb 11, 2025 at 01:32 PM
OwlsEyes
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p.5 #16 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


wolfloid wrote:
It would, but it would also necessitate remodelling all the M mount lenses. This will be a major investment, and it is not what most people have been asking for, and certainly not those who just want an easier way to focus their existing M lenses. It would also make all the lenses larger, and heavier - a no go for many users. It would be a provocative act of alienating all those existing customers, so I doubt they値l do that.

The only advantage gained that I can see to compensate for annoying their existing customer base would be to allow
...Show more

I disagree 100%. At the present, people put and adaptor on their SL's that is less than 1cm thick between the SL body and the M-mount lens and this makes all current M-mount lenses work. In fact, many claim that this modification yields near 100% image equivalent w/ M-cameras when using a 24MP sensor (ie SL and SL2s). By this logic, all Leica would need is a slightly extende barrel (equal to what the current M to T adapter is), and they have the same lens design with better close focus.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel... at a later date, Leica could choose to make lenses specific to the slightly longer L flange distance or not...



Feb 11, 2025 at 02:31 PM
retrofocus
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p.5 #17 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


OwlsEyes wrote:
I disagree 100%. At the present, people put and adaptor on their SL's that is less than 1cm thick between the SL body and the M-mount lens and this makes all current M-mount lenses work. In fact, many claim that this modification yields near 100% image equivalent w/ M-cameras when using a 24MP sensor (ie SL and SL2s). By this logic, all Leica would need is a slightly extende barrel (equal to what the current M to T adapter is), and they have the same lens design with better close focus.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel... at
...Show more

If I need to use an adapter on the EVF-M to use it with my M lenses, this would be a red flag/bummer for me.



Feb 11, 2025 at 02:48 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.5 #18 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


retrofocus wrote:
Your analysis is correct but as I mentioned earlier here, I highly doubt Leica will go the L route with the EVF-M even Leica has committed itself to the L-mount in the past. An EVF-M with L-mount would torpedo significantly further SL sales which are already below expectations. I don't think Leica wants to risk this. The M-mount is a much safer bet here for Leica since it won't compete with either the SL nor the Q-series due to lack of AF capabilities. It can be seen more as addition to existing traditional M cameras - I certainly will second
...Show more

I think there are dangers either way Leica goes. If Leica makes this small EVF camera with M mount, then I think it is either a very niche market for some M users who would prefer an EVF to a rangefinder basically a small subcategory of M cameras or it becomes the de facto M mount camera and they might alienate the M user base. Any slow introduction of M cameras with a rangefinder or complaints about those cameras can easily become magnified: people will be looking for "are they abandoning the rangefinder?" Both problems are even possible. It is only a niche product that alienates the M user base. In this scenario, this new camera becomes the typical M mount camera and the classic M with an optical rangefinder becomes like the current D models that don't have the LCD.

I don't think that would be good for Leica and may lead Leica M users to defect to other cameras. Especially, if other manufacturers built competing cameras as I presume they would. Nobody is going to build an optical rangefinder except Leica. They in effect have a monopoly on that sort of camera and can charge prices accordingly. If they make an EVF camera with M mount, now competitors can easily come along and make it hard for them to compete and charge typical Leica prices. In fact, it is not unreasonable to argue that the difficulty that Leica has with the SL cameras and lenses is not the products, which are quite good in many ways, it is that they don't have the monopoly they do with rangefinder cameras. And when Leica has to compete head to head it is hard for them to do well. If they mostly give up their monopoly and compete head to head, they might well be killing (or at least injuring) the goose that lays the golden eggs.

If they make a small EVF camera with an L mount, then they risk cutting into SL sales even further and what already appears to be slow sales becomes slower as you suggest. I agree with you this risk is probably bigger, but so is the potential upside of developing the camera as an L mount camera. A smaller camera and the development of smaller lenses and the availability of M lens based L mount lenses might be exactly what Leica needs to do for their L mount ventures to succeed.

Currently Leica segments the market with small and retro/legacy meaning M mount, and large and modern being L mount. Where do you put a small modern camera? Do you connect it to the company's legacy and give it an M mount, or do you connect it to the company's modern approach and give it an L mount? It will be interesting whatever Leica decides as either way I think it will break the current way Leica segments the market.



Feb 11, 2025 at 02:49 PM
Oldwino
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p.5 #19 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


It's going to end up being a $9000 re-hash of the Panasonic S9...


Feb 11, 2025 at 02:51 PM
johnvanr
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p.5 #20 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


Steve Spencer wrote:
I think there are dangers either way Leica goes. If Leica makes this small EVF camera with M mount, then I think it is either a very niche market for some M users who would prefer an EVF to a rangefinder basically a small subcategory of M cameras or it becomes the de facto M mount camera and they might alienate the M user base. Any slow introduction of M cameras with a rangefinder or complaints about those cameras can easily become magnified: people will be looking for "are they abandoning the rangefinder?" Both problems are even possible. It
...Show more

I use Leica for the small lenses. Anyone brand that takes those small lenses and keeps the overall system small combined with top-notch manual focus aides has my vote. Leica can have the rangefinder, but personally I知 not married to that finder at all.



Feb 11, 2025 at 03:20 PM
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