p.13 #1 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
retrofocus wrote:
Assuming the price would be at least below a current rangefinder M.....
Assuming the price would be at least close to the price of modding the Sony. If it is lower than the current M pricing, but still significantly above the modded Sony route ... there will still be those who are targeting price point as a guiding factor.
Then ... there's the issue of readout speed that is chosen for the M. If Sony folks want to use the faster e-shutter vs. rolling shutter, etc. ... well, there's more to an M being an M (i.e. image quality vs. readout speeds, etc.) and they may find that even then, they prefer to mod the Sony. Particularly when you realize that Sony makes a dozen different configurations of readout speeds vs. MP, the Sony mod approach lets them tailor how much they value speed vs. IQ vs. MP.
With the M ... ummm, there will only be one choice for them at that point, and they may not like the engineering approach Leica takes wrt readout speed vs. IQ.
In the vein of IQ ... there's the optical projection of the lens > microlenses on the M. But, there's also the readout / processing. If it is going to still be an M ... I'd anticipate Leica to retain the slow readout that the M has, even if they do use an EVF. If you are moving into faster readout speeds, you're moving into Q territory with lower DR or SL-S territory with smaller MP's. Choose your poison(s) kinda thing.
Always a quid pro quo somewhere. No matter what they do ... there'll be those who find fault with it, or say the value proposition is better somewhere else.
p.13 #2 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
johnvanr wrote:
What would you call “pretty modern,” though? Short of critically focusing wide open, I actually do think the rangefinder is a great manual focusing aid. In also liked the split screen and other MF aids on my old Pentaxes.
I’m a big fan of Nikon’s implementation and of Canon’s (which only works with EF and RF lenses). I dislike any kind of focus peaking and never trust it and I really dislike the zooming in procedure.
So, to me, merely modern isn’t good enough, because so much of the modern implementation is not to my liking.
I think that’s all it needs to have. Focus peaking, punch in/out, and some other form of focus confirmation like a green box or dot. This isn’t going to be a camera to try to steal market share from Sony. It doesn’t need to set benchmarks in technology gadgetry. It just needs an EVF and a M-mount, and it’ll satisfy a host of people who jump through hoops to use M glass (modded sensors), aging M users, or early-adopters of the latest M's. I could also see a wedding pro like Benj Haisch picking one of these up to make his kit more lightweight and for easier low light usage.
It'll be horribly disappointing to lot of people, but it'll be the only EVF M-mount camera on the market.
p.13 #3 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
It's possible and plausible that Leica would give deep and ongoing design thought to an EVF-M, effectively placing the camera well apart from the small manual concession cameras of the major (all AF) brands. I expect they have been doing this for quite some time, using the experience of the SL series cameras and observing the niggardly MF support the heavyweights have offered these past ten years.
They don't need to call it an 'M' either. There are sound reasons to not do so, and not just due to the heat it generates in the Leica user base:
.. but because it open doors to a new vision for manual focus outside the cloistered world of rangefinder restrictions. M lenses are concentrated to an extraordinary extend in the range 35mm to 50mm, in the Leica and Voigtlander ranges alike, plus the newcomers.
The proposed EVF-M clears the way to achieving a much more balanced distribution. And it does it without the need for VF encroachment that has forced lenses to be very small and narrow. Leica could add many more lenses to their M-mount range at both ends of the spectrum, areas which also benefit from designing larger but still highly useful lenses. And they could be done more affordably, yet to the same standards.
Free at last from the RF restrictions that weigh heavily on design freedom, we could effectively see a new range of lenses to complement what they have now, but they would only be conveniently usable on the now-dominant camera type - the EVF bodies.
p.13 #4 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
There are so many shooting scenarios in which this sharp edged 'box on top of a Leica' setup would simply not last nor would it be viable in usability terms: tightly packed venues, interiors, remote travel, vertical nature, rough handling in jeeps, etc.
p.13 #5 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Steve Spencer wrote:
I have no idea what you mean by the EVF-M as described here. The rumored camera has been described in several different ways and some of them contradict each other. If you mean just a Leica M with an EVF instead of an optical rangefinder with only peaking and magnification, then I think it would be competing for the dollars of at least some of the people from the modded Sony crowd (but I suspect not many of those people would be interested in it), but it would also be competing with a more traditional Leica M camera with an optical rangefinder (and although some would buy both it and a more traditional range finder, I suspect a lot would only buy one or the other). I am not sure who else would be interested in the rumored camera. Maybe some film Leica M shooters who want to go digital? Perhaps, but they might prefer a traditional digital rangefinder. What do you see as the market for the rumored camera, however you see that camera?...Show more →
I think Leica well understands who the EVF M mount camera will apeal to, and what features matter to that demographic. Leica has done extensive research into this. Including multiple surveys and interviews, a couple of which I have participated in.
The fact that they are building the camera seems to indicate that they see a market for it.
p.13 #6 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
philip_pj wrote:
.. but because it open doors to a new vision for manual focus outside the cloistered world of rangefinder restrictions. M lenses are concentrated to an extraordinary extend in the range 35mm to 50mm, in the Leica and Voigtlander ranges alike, plus the newcomers.
Excellent point! This could lead to an explosion of new lens possibilities.
p.13 #7 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
RustyBug wrote:
Then ... there's the issue of readout speed that is chosen for the M. If Sony folks want to use the faster e-shutter vs. rolling shutter, etc. ... well, there's more to an M being an M (i.e. image quality vs. readout speeds, etc.) and they may find that even then, they prefer to mod the Sony. Particularly when you realize that Sony makes a dozen different configurations of readout speeds vs. MP, the Sony mod approach lets them tailor how much they value speed vs. IQ vs. MP.
I thought only Sony's high-end stacked sensors have fast readout speeds (a1 &a9 models). Isn't everything else quite pathetically slow? Which also afflicts Nikon due to their reliance on Sony for sensors...
p.13 #8 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
shujert wrote:
I think that’s all it needs to have. Focus peaking, punch in/out, and some other form of focus confirmation like a green box or dot. This isn’t going to be a camera to try to steal market share from Sony. It doesn’t need to set benchmarks in technology gadgetry. It just needs an EVF and a M-mount, and it’ll satisfy a host of people who jump through hoops to use M glass (modded sensors), aging M users, or early-adopters of the latest M's. I could also see a wedding pro like Benj Haisch picking one of these up to make his kit more lightweight and for easier low light usage.
It'll be horribly disappointing to lot of people, but it'll be the only EVF M-mount camera on the market. ...Show more →
That other focus confirmation, like a green dot, is critical. I’ve got all the other things on the Visoflex and I wouldn’t buy any camera with that Visoflex built in, let alone one at the prices Leica commands.
p.13 #9 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
rscheffler wrote:
I thought only Sony's high-end stacked sensors have fast readout speeds (a1 &a9 models). Isn't everything else quite pathetically slow? Which also afflicts Nikon due to their reliance on Sony for sensors...
There are also stacked sensors that Nikon got from Sony that are different from A1 & A9 model sensors, i.e. the one in Z8 and Z9 and Z6III uses something they called partially stacked, which also has somewhat faster readout though nowhere near as fast as proper stacked sensors. Rest of the Z-mount cameras with Sony sensors have slow readouts though.
For me the slow readout on my A7CII (1/15s) and A7C (1/16s) is not a big problem when I use those with my manual focus glass as I mostly shoot still subjects with Electronic Shutter. If I'm shooting moving subjects and want to freeze the movement better I could switch to EFCS, although would need to consider EFCS related bokeh artifacts if shutter speeds are really fast (~1/1000 or faster). Overall it doesn't limit too much. When I want to shoot real action / events, I almost always go with my A9 and AF lenses instead.
Ideally a stacked sensor with faster readout and no penalty on DR (such as A1 sensor) would be best but such options are very limited today.
If I went with a Kolari mod today, I would choose one of the A7C series cameras for it as it would seem counterproductive to mod a stacked sensor camera optimized for fast action like A1 or any of the A9 series so that it could be optimal for adapted manual focus lenses.
p.13 #10 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Imo execution and quality is critical when creating an evf m mount camera. The release of the z9/A1shows thats possible to achieve a high enough standard. Having thought about it, an built in L adaptor will likely add too much bulk and weight so my next guess is that Leica will incorporate electronically coupled lenses. Like Fuji will give exif data and allow for PASM exposure control. Not only that it'll be able to register distance which will mean a 'digital rangefinder' similar to fujis digital pentaprism. Basically best of both worlds
p.13 #11 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
mboy wrote:
Imo execution and quality is critical when creating an evf m mount camera. The release of the z9/A1shows thats possible to achieve a high enough standard. Having thought about it, an built in L adaptor will likely add too much bulk and weight so my next guess is that Leica will incorporate electronically coupled lenses. Like Fuji will give exif data and allow for PASM exposure control. Not only that it'll be able to register distance which will mean a 'digital rangefinder' similar to fujis digital pentaprism. Basically best of both worlds
The only coupling Leica will most likely do in an EVF-M is the std 6-bit coding to recognize M lenses.
p.13 #12 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
The Z8/9 are fully stacked sensors with readout speed about the same as the A1. The Z6III is the first partially stacked sensor currently in a camera.
The A1 is the best in the lab for stacked sensors with regards to DR but having shot with the Z9 and A1 extensively, I never really noticed a difference in the real world.
Juha Kannisto wrote:
There are also stacked sensors that Nikon got from Sony that are different from A1 & A9 model sensors, i.e. the one in Z8 and Z9 and Z6III uses something they called partially stacked, which also has somewhat faster readout though nowhere near as fast as proper stacked sensors. Rest of the Z-mount cameras with Sony sensors have slow readouts though.
For me the slow readout on my A7CII (1/15s) and A7C (1/16s) is not a big problem when I use those with my manual focus glass as I mostly shoot still subjects with Electronic Shutter. If I'm shooting moving subjects and want to freeze the movement better I could switch to EFCS, although would need to consider EFCS related bokeh artifacts if shutter speeds are really fast (~1/1000 or faster). Overall it doesn't limit too much. When I want to shoot real action / events, I almost always go with my A9 and AF lenses instead.
Ideally a stacked sensor with faster readout and no penalty on DR (such as A1 sensor) would be best but such options are very limited today.
If I went with a Kolari mod today, I would choose one of the A7C series cameras for it as it would seem counterproductive to mod a stacked sensor camera optimized for fast action like A1 or any of the A9 series so that it could be optimal for adapted manual focus lenses....Show more →
p.13 #13 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
mboy wrote:
Imo execution and quality is critical when creating an evf m mount camera. The release of the z9/A1shows thats possible to achieve a high enough standard. Having thought about it, an built in L adaptor will likely add too much bulk and weight so my next guess is that Leica will incorporate electronically coupled lenses. Like Fuji will give exif data and allow for PASM exposure control. Not only that it'll be able to register distance which will mean a 'digital rangefinder' similar to fujis digital pentaprism. Basically best of both worlds
If you mean Leica will start making lenses with contacts I'd say very unlikely. They are a small outfit struggling to make enough of the uber expensive stuff to satisfy demand. Why would they distract themselves with yet anotehr lens line is just not obvious to me.
Making an EVF camera in a M-like body is far simpler than inventing a completely new lens line. They cannot just adapt the M line lenses, they'd have to change everything to make that aperture ring at the front to somehow talk to the electronic contacts. The only way this would make sense is if the M12 had proper contacts, ie M lenses will from now come with electonics so they can be used both on new M- and M-EVF cameras.
p.13 #14 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
panos.v wrote:
The only way this would make sense is if the M12 had proper contacts, ie M lenses will from now come with electonics so they can be used both on new M- and M-EVF cameras.
Very unlikely that this will ever happen - Leica makes a good side business with 6-bit coding existing and older M lenses. I don't think this will change any time soon - let's not forget that Leica wants users to focus on the L mount if it comes to electronic lens/camera connectivity. I believe this is here where they will draw the line.
p.13 #15 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Voigtlander as small a lens company it is has been able to make manual focusing electronic coupled lenses for a variety of manufacturers. I'm sure Leica can do the same for itself. The evf will need to register some exif from somewhere. To have just read the bit code only is not really moving forward with tech. There's more potential with and evf and electronic coupling than just the current 6 bit coding. Well see if my prediction will come true or not
p.13 #16 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
mboy wrote:
Voigtlander as small a lens company it is has been able to make manual focusing electronic coupled lenses for a variety of manufacturers. I'm sure Leica can do the same for itself. The evf will need to register some exif from somewhere. To have just read the bit code only is not really moving forward with tech. There's more potential with and evf and electronic coupling than just the current 6 bit coding. Well see if my prediction will come true or not
My guess continues to be the rumored, so-called "EVF-M" 1.0 will be M11 w/ built-in EVF + some bells and whistles (based upon the LSI survey questions and notes I posted earlier in this thread). If 1.0 sells well, then I think we might expect more such tech introduced in version 2.0 of that model.
From the outside looking in, Leica seems to have a lot more going on than just manual focus lenses. I think Peter Karbe mentioned it can take about four years for Leica to produce a new lens, not because that process takes four years in and of itself, but because of all the other on-going projects.
p.13 #17 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
At the least, to report aperture info electronically with M lenses, they'd have to add some sort of position sensor/brush and the electronics to support it, plus contacts somewhere around the lens mount. Even just that, without AF, will cause 'lens bloat' to support the electronics. If you look at M lens cutaways now, you'll see there's really no room to add electronics to existing lenses.
Therefore I think EVF-M v1.0 will be as LBJ2 stated. It would be nice to have the additional aperture EXIF info, but I've already lived without it in the M series for ages and could forego it for other EVF-M benefits, if well implemented.
I think the risk with adding electronics to M lenses is it will skew the M series too far away from its core and introduce potential electronic obsolescence that the M series, at least the lenses, have so far avoided.
p.13 #18 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
philip_pj wrote:
There are so many shooting scenarios in which this sharp edged 'box on top of a Leica' setup would simply not last nor would it be viable in usability terms: tightly packed venues, interiors, remote travel, vertical nature, rough handling in jeeps, etc.
FWIW, and while I much prefer the rangefinder, in my experience the Visoflex 2 on the M11 is pretty good and fairly solid connection for what it is, and hands-on, not as limited are you might think. If I understand correctly, I'm not sure why you listed "tightly packed venues, interiors, remote travel, even vertical nature" as a Visoflex limitation. E.g., You hold the camera vertically same as you would with or without the Visoflex 2 as needed. As far as sharp edges go, I also hear one can drown in as little as half a cup of water too. * I would advise that one Youtuber who claimed he was attacked by the Visoflex 2 sharp edges to carefully consider his actions when drinking one half cup of water or more.
This product albeit in several different forms/styles has been around for years which perhaps = significant amount of use-case experience went into the current design and specs to include the in-EVF electronic image stabilization. Of course due to size constraints, the OLED Visoflex 2 probably maxed out at 3.7MP at the time to maintain compact as much as possible.
Leica has sold Visoflex type products for their cameras for years because their M customers buy these products and no secret why. I see the built-in EVF as the next step for those that need/want it and still willing to pay Leica camera prices instead of Visoflex price.
Last but not least, having been the photographer roughed up in the back of an open jeep exploring some treatherous jungle trails, my priority was mostly who would grab me before I bounced out. I can always buy another camera. 🤪
p.13 #19 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
LBJ2 wrote:
FWIW, and while I much prefer the rangefinder, in my experience the Visoflex 2 on the M11 is pretty good and fairly solid connection for what it is, and hands-on, not as limited are you might think. If I understand correctly, I'm not sure why you listed "tightly packed venues, interiors, remote travel, even vertical nature" as a limitation. E.g., You hold the camera vertically same as you would with or without the Visoflex 2 as needed. As far as sharp edges go, I also hear one can drown in as little as half a cup of water too. * I would advise that one Youtuber who claimed he was attacked by the Visoflex 2 sharp edges to carefully consider his actions when drinking one half cup of water or more.
This product albeit in several different forms/styles has been around for years which perhaps = significant amount of use-case experience went into the current design and specs to include the in-EVF image stabilization. Of course due to size constraints, the OLED Visoflex 2 probably maxed out at 3.7MP at the time to maintain compact as much as possible.
Leica has sold Visoflex type products for their cameras for years because customers buy these products and no secret why. I see the built-in EVF as the next step for those that need/want it and still willing to pay Leica camera prices instead of Visoflex price.
Last but not least, having been the photographer roughed up in the back of an open jeep exploring some treatherous jungle trails, my priority was mostly who would grab me before I bounced out. I can always buy another camera. 🤪...Show more →
What would be kinda cool is if the EVF was a "flip up" (or down) from the top plate, that would then position itself in the RF corner. Then, you could then view it like a miniature "waist level" display atop the body, without having to put your eye up to it, the way you do with the physical Visoflex. Then, you could still retain the RF option, or flip it down into the classic EVF position. So, rather than having a flip LCD, you could have a flip EVF. The Panny GX8 of sorts, but with a flat panel that overlays the optical RF.
Granted, you still have to be in "live view" for any kind of EVF to function (i.e. shutter open) vs. shutter closed for RF implementation (e.g. more responsive shutter release cycle).
p.13 #20 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
mboy wrote:
Voigtlander as small a lens company it is has been able to make manual focusing electronic coupled lenses for a variety of manufacturers. I'm sure Leica can do the same for itself. The evf will need to register some exif from somewhere. To have just read the bit code only is not really moving forward with tech. There's more potential with and evf and electronic coupling than just the current 6 bit coding. Well see if my prediction will come true or not
Voigtlander isn’t a small lens company. It’s just the brand name that Cosina has the licensing rights on to sell that line of lenses. And Cosina is a large manufacturer of lenses for other companies.
