A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.12 #1 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
retrofocus wrote:
Appreciate your feedback - good discussion! I also agree that no matter in which mount such - currently still hypothetical - EVF-M (or EVF-L) will be in competition with FF MLCs from other brands and measured against such in tests. Therefore I agree with other posters here and you that this EVF-M needs to bring something on the table to make manual focusing at least as good as with rangefinder OVF or better. Focus peaking and a cumbersome magnification tool in EVF is not sufficient from my experience to be better than rangefinder based focusing. Without very good EVF based focusing tools, I agree that such EVF-M would not be accepted by many M users. Several suggestions were mentioned in this thread what in theory Leica can do to improve manual focus with an EVF - not sure which we will see. ...Show more →
I agree that what Leica brings to the EVF focussing experience is going to be key to the rumored camera. If they don't bring anything that differentiates this camera, then I think they will struggle against the competition. If they make the MF focussing experience a lot better, then I think the camera will become popular with those who can justify what I expect to be a very high price. The better the MF focussing aids, I think the more sense it makes for it to have an M mount. Some will always prefer the rangefinder, but if the EVF focussing experience for most people seems better than the rangefinder, which I think will be a tall order for 35 and 50mm lenses at least, then I think it makes a lot of sense for the camera to have an M mount. For me the devil will be in the details. What is that MF experience like? I suppose we will see in due time, if this camera is more than a rumor.
p.12 #2 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Steve Spencer wrote:
I agree that what Leica brings to the EVF focussing experience is going to be key to the rumored camera. If they don't bring anything that differentiates this camera, then I think they will struggle against the competition. If they make the MF focussing experience a lot better, then I think the camera will become popular with those who can justify what I expect to be a very high price. The better the MF focussing aids, I think the more sense it makes for it to have an M mount. Some will always prefer the rangefinder, but if the EVF focussing experience for most people seems better than the rangefinder, which I think will be a tall order for 35 and 50mm lenses at least, then I think it makes a lot of sense for the camera to have an M mount. For me the devil will be in the details. What is that MF experience like? I suppose we will see in due time, if this camera is more than a rumor....Show more →
The manual focus aids (inadvertently started by Canon with the R and RP) on the Zf are overrated, and they only work with electronically connected lenses with aperture communication, something the M lenses will never have. Punching in to zoom to focus is fine. I / many of us just want a native M-mount camera with an EVF because we don't want a sensor-modded Sony.
p.12 #3 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
The manual focusing experience will be key, as many have mentioned.
Trying to think "outside the box" ... while EVF seems to be a defacto approach to improve upon the RF experience, maybe a different optical RF experience could be created.
In my mind, the present RF harness the difference in the "sliding" horizontal overlay of the patch.
What if the mechanics / optics were aligned in the Z axis instead of the X axis. By that, I mean if one of the two lenses moved front to rear (vs. left to right), and was against the ENTIRE lens (vs. only a patch, as a limitation of the L / R movement requirement). Then, we could get more of a "ground glass" experience as the entire image "pops" into focus, as the entire plane moves front to rear (which is how the plane moves when we adjust focus).
This is a paradigm shift, and isn't on anyone's radar. The obvious question is "why not before" ... well, the precision of manufacturing back when the M was designed likely didn't allow for the Z axis, and thus the patch (partial X-axis) was the solution. No one has ever really challenged that ... the SLR > DSLR > EVF being the alternative, but not an actual redesign to the patch approach for a rangefinder mechanism.
In the end, it will be a matter of the user experience, wrt how any product fares.
When DSLR came along, I longed for a 100% silver mirror (vs. translucent) for the better viewing experience. I also missed the Split Prism / Micro Ring / Ground glass. I had outfitted my FE with only a ground glass prism and found it to be a wonderful experience. If the ground glass could be incorporated into the RF mechanism (i.e. not TTL), it would be a viewing experience that I think folks would enjoy, and would be a different experience from aligning the patch, for those looking for a different manual focusing experience.
Rather than harness the technology of electronics for an EVF, harness the technological precision of electro-mechanics (vs. presently mechanical only) for the manipulation of the optical RF (not unlike FBW, but for the optical RF). The classic view of ground glass, coupled with the precision of today's technological prowess.
I realize that is dreaming into fantasy land, much like my M with interchangeable, leaf shutter lenses. But, hey ... one can dream, right.
Feb 16, 2025 at 12:15 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.12 #4 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
highdesertmesa wrote:
The manual focus aids (inadvertently started by Canon with the R and RP) on the Zf are overrated, and they only work with electronically connected lenses with aperture communication, something the M lenses will never have. Punching in to zoom to focus is fine. I / many of us just want a native M-mount camera with an EVF because we don't want a sensor-modded Sony.
If the focussing is no better than a sensor modded Sony camera, then I have zero interest. I can't see paying what would will almost certainly be multiple thousands of dollars for a native M-mount when adapters like the TT-artisans 6-bit adapter work so well. And if a native mount were really important to me, which it isn't, I could buy a a whole lot of Leica M mount like lenses with a native Sony E mount and I wouldn't even have to mod my camera. Yeah, there will always be some people who want the Leica name, but the camera has to provide something, IMO, that differentiates it from Sony/Nikon/Canon besides simply having a native M mount or it will struggle to compete.
p.12 #5 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
RustyBug wrote:
The manual focusing experience will be key, as many have mentioned.
Trying to think "outside the box" ... while EVF seems to be a defacto approach to improve upon the RF experience, maybe a different optical RF experience could be created.
...
Rather than harness the technology of electronics for an EVF, harness the technological precision of electro-mechanics (vs. presently mechanical only) for the manipulation of the optical RF (not unlike FBW, but for the optical RF). The classic view of ground glass, coupled with the precision of today's technological prowess.
I realize that is dreaming into fantasy land, much like my M with interchangeable, leaf shutter lenses. But, hey ... one can dream, right.
The EVF brings more than just focus, and does those other things better than a OVF :
Obstruction and parallax free accurate framing at all distances, level horizon, guide frames, histogram, image review and even menu item adjustment.
An EVF-M-D ( no rear LCD ) would work a charm.
p.12 #6 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
FrozenInTime wrote:
The EVF brings more than just focus, and does those other things better than a OVF :
Obstruction and parallax free accurate framing at all distances, level horizon, guide frames, histogram, image review and even menu item adjustment.
An EVF-M-D ( no rear LCD ) would work a charm.
Understood that the EVF is a versatile tool and contends with certain aspects differently than an optical one. But, the experience of focusing onto ground glass is unlike the others. For some, versatility will provide an improved manual focus experience. For others, it doesn't. Thus, my "pondering" of a non-EVF improvement means for the optical RF manual focusing experience.
Then, also ... and this probably shouldn't be underestimated, yet it is likely overlooked in early discussion ... there is the requirement for the camera to be functioning in "live view" for the EVF to function at all. Which will then impact the responsiveness of the shutter, as it must first close before it can perform its exposure cycle. M11 users might not notice the diff as much. M10 or earlier may notice more.
Shooting live view and shooting optical RF provide for different shutter release responsiveness. Some folks won't be so keen on the difference that the EVF vs. RF experience will be. Others, the diff won't bother them at all ... particularly those who have never shot the M's (before the M11) with any significance.
p.12 #7 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Hopefully we get a stacked sensor that has a good e-shutter and fast readout.
Unfortunately as the SL3-S did not get a stacked sensor, odds of a technology leap are diminished; unless Panasonic’s next generation S1 changes that.
p.12 #8 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
RustyBug wrote:
Understood that the EVF is a versatile tool and contends with certain aspects differently than an optical one. But, the experience of focusing onto ground glass is unlike the others. For some, versatility will provide an improved manual focus experience. For others, it doesn't. Thus, my "pondering" of a non-EVF improvement means for the optical RF manual focusing experience.
Then, also ... and this probably shouldn't be underestimated, yet it is likely overlooked in early discussion ... there is the requirement for the camera to be functioning in "live view" for the EVF to function at all. Which will then impact the responsiveness of the shutter, as it must first close before it can perform its exposure cycle. M11 users might not notice the diff as much. M10 or earlier may notice more.
Shooting live view and shooting optical RF provide for different shutter release responsiveness. Some folks won't be so keen on the difference that the EVF vs. RF experience will be. Others, the diff won't bother them at all ... particularly those who have never shot the M's (before the M11) with any significance....Show more →
An EVF M-mount camera embracing M form factor, an EVF at the SL level, a sensor fast enough to be full time electronic, some advanced Focus Aids, and yes even high end video capabilities would be well received in my opinion.
It should be looked at as a different camera in support of the unique M-Mount lens lineup, going back 70 years.
Honestly, I don't see that conflicting with classic M RF cameras. I would have at least one of each.
p.12 #9 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Having read through this whole thread, my personal opinion on this camera needing a differentiated EVF focusing experience has changed. I think this camera just needs (and is going to be) a M camera with an EVF instead of the optical rangefinder. Occam’s Razor. The differentiator is simply a native m-mount, and as long as the EVF and focusing experience is pretty modern, it’s going to sell well.
p.12 #11 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
FrozenInTime wrote:
Hopefully we get a stacked sensor that has a good e-shutter and fast readout.
Unfortunately as the SL3-S did not get a stacked sensor, odds of a technology leap are diminished; unless Panasonic’s next generation S1 changes that.
I think the thing you have to consider ... when you start mixing M lenses with sensors that don't have microlens construction that is optimized for the M lens (which iiuc is the reason the SL3-S retained the "older tech" i.e. matched tech to the lens), you start degrading the M lens optical output experience. I'm not sure that Leica will be keen to do that for the M's with the stacked sensor if it requires a compromise to the optical path.
Folks really have to kinda ask themselves if they are truly wanting an M, and the optics / performance associated with the M ... or, do they want a high tech camera. In some regard, there are certain aspects that are quid pro quo ... trading the ethos of the M for the modern conveniences that are (to varying degree) departures from the M ethos of small form factor / high quality. The stacked sensor (for example, is a hit to IQ) may not align with Leica retaining the ethos of the M.
Looking for the high tech of the stacked sensor ... might be a different model then.
p.12 #12 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
stgrove wrote:
No video in an M
It's a version of M outside of the numbered M line, so having the video functionality on par with at least the Q3 would make sense. That said, I personally have zero use for video without IBIS.
p.12 #13 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Steve Spencer wrote:
If the focussing is no better than a sensor modded Sony camera, then I have zero interest. I can't see paying what would will almost certainly be multiple thousands of dollars for a native M-mount when adapters like the TT-artisans 6-bit adapter work so well. And if a native mount were really important to me, which it isn't, I could buy a a whole lot of Leica M mount like lenses with a native Sony E mount and I wouldn't even have to mod my camera. Yeah, there will always be some people who want the Leica name, but the camera has to provide something, IMO, that differentiates it from Sony/Nikon/Canon besides simply having a native M mount or it will struggle to compete....Show more →
I don't think the EVF-M as described here is competing for the dollars of the sensor modded Sony crowd.
p.12 #14 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
shujert wrote:
Having read through this whole thread, my personal opinion on this camera needing a differentiated EVF focusing experience has changed. I think this camera just needs (and is going to be) a M camera with an EVF instead of the optical rangefinder. Occam’s Razor. The differentiator is simply a native m-mount, and as long as the EVF and focusing experience is pretty modern, it’s going to sell well.
What would you call “pretty modern,” though? Short of critically focusing wide open, I actually do think the rangefinder is a great manual focusing aid. In also liked the split screen and other MF aids on my old Pentaxes.
I’m a big fan of Nikon’s implementation and of Canon’s (which only works with EF and RF lenses). I dislike any kind of focus peaking and never trust it and I really dislike the zooming in procedure.
So, to me, merely modern isn’t good enough, because so much of the modern implementation is not to my liking.
p.12 #15 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
johnvanr wrote:
What would you call “pretty modern,” though? Short of critically focusing wide open, I actually do think the rangefinder is a great manual focusing aid. In also liked the split screen and other MF aids on my old Pentaxes.
I’m a big fan of Nikon’s implementation and of Canon’s (which only works with EF and RF lenses). I dislike any kind of focus peaking and never trust it and I really dislike the zooming in procedure.
So, to me, merely modern isn’t good enough, because so much of the modern implementation is not to my liking.
+1 that focus peaking isn't up to snuff in many instances. Zooming isn't the fav, but it's more trustworthy than focus peaking for critical focus. But, without TTL, the split screen, microprism, ground glass (currently) aren't an option for RF. I was hopeful for Fuji's implementation of those aids in the X-Pro 3 ... but, they were pretty "meh" when I had mine (pre-Leica M).
Feb 16, 2025 at 03:31 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.12 #16 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
highdesertmesa wrote:
I don't think the EVF-M as described here is competing for the dollars of the sensor modded Sony crowd.
I have no idea what you mean by the EVF-M as described here. The rumored camera has been described in several different ways and some of them contradict each other. If you mean just a Leica M with an EVF instead of an optical rangefinder with only peaking and magnification, then I think it would be competing for the dollars of at least some of the people from the modded Sony crowd (but I suspect not many of those people would be interested in it), but it would also be competing with a more traditional Leica M camera with an optical rangefinder (and although some would buy both it and a more traditional range finder, I suspect a lot would only buy one or the other). I am not sure who else would be interested in the rumored camera. Maybe some film Leica M shooters who want to go digital? Perhaps, but they might prefer a traditional digital rangefinder. What do you see as the market for the rumored camera, however you see that camera?
p.12 #17 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Steve Spencer wrote:
I have no idea what you mean by the EVF-M as described here. The rumored camera has been described in several different ways and some of them contradict each other. If you mean just a Leica M with an EVF instead of an optical rangefinder with only peaking and magnification, then I think it would be competing for the dollars of at least some of the people from the modded Sony crowd (but I suspect not many of those people would be interested in it), but it would also be competing with a more traditional Leica M camera with an optical rangefinder (and although some would buy both it and a more traditional range finder, I suspect a lot would only buy one or the other). I am not sure who else would be interested in the rumored camera. Maybe some film Leica M shooters who want to go digital? Perhaps, but they might prefer a traditional digital rangefinder. What do you see as the market for the rumored camera, however you see that camera?...Show more →
Any design of M-mount camera with an EVF is not going to be marketed toward owners of Sonys with modded sensors, that's all I'm saying. There's a sizable portion of current M owners who just want a built-in EVF, either to move completely to or as a second body.
