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A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
  
 
SlowDriver
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p.11 #1 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


RexGig0 wrote:
The Leica M1, a film camera with an M Mount, has no rangefinder. It has a viewfinder, with frame lines. Introduced in 1959, it could/can use the old-school, non-electronic Visoflex, of that day, for focusing. As I am not upset that Leica made the M1, I am not upset that Leica may manufacture a rangefinder-less digital M-mount camera.

Would I be a potential buyer of a rangefinder-less M camera? Well, maybe, depending upon the totality of the factors. I am not a fan of EVFs, but, now and then, I do use Live View, though more likely to enable spot...Show more →

I agree and I believe it will be significant challenge for Leica to make an EVF-M work, both from a feature and a pricing point of view.

And if they get it work I personally cannot see how it long term (perhaps not initially) would not have a negative impact on both RF M and SL sales.

That being said, there is obviously a demand, just like there has been a demand for a smaller L-mount camera for a decade now, so the only way to find out is to try.


Feb 15, 2025 at 11:06 AM
raizans
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p.11 #2 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


How much does Steve Jobs’ “if you don’t cannibalize yourself, someone else will” apply? While I’m not especially compelled by any other systems’ somewhat similar offerings to what the EVF-M might be, I suppose other people are not as picky and could be swayed.
Feb 15, 2025 at 11:28 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.11 #3 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


RustyBug wrote:
Retaining 100% of image quality of the M lens optical projections, without any compromises?



Yes, the Sony E mount lenses for Voigtlander for example retain 100% of the image quality of the Voigtlander Leica M mount lenses and one (the 50 f/2 APO Lanthar for which we have MTF charts) actually performs a tiny bit better on Sony E mount than it does on Leica M mount.

Further a number of these lenses from Fred's reviews perform very similarly and very competitively with Leica M lenses. Examples include the E mount Voigtlander 28 f/1.5 being smaller with very similar performance to the Leica M 28 lux Asph, and the E mount 50 f/2 APO Lanthar performing very well and competing very well with the Leica M 50 cron APO. And the although the performance differs, IMO, it certainly is reasonable to prefer the Sony E mount 75 f/1.5 Asph, over the Leica M 75 lux and again the Sony E mount lens is smaller and lighter than the Leica M lens (personally I like both these 75mm lenses, but have a soft spot for the Leica lens). The E mount Voigtlander 50 f/1 Asph, is also smaller and competes very well, IMO, with the Leica M 50 0/.95 Noctilux. So, it isn't just a few lenses, but a number of Sony E mount manual focus lenses that can be used on a smaller Sony E mount rangefinder style camera with an EVF and I think these lensed do have very competitive image quality.
Feb 15, 2025 at 05:40 PM
Sonnar-7
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p.11 #4 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


I wouldn’t mind a budget M camera, make it modern, 24MP, a sort of updated M240.
An entry to Leica with specs and an aura that’s alright but doesn’t overstep the M flagship.
I don’t think it’s plausible though.
Feb 15, 2025 at 05:51 PM
RustyBug
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p.11 #5 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


Steve Spencer wrote:
Yes, the Sony E mount lenses for Voigtlander for example retain 100% of the image quality of the Voigtlander Leica M mount lenses and one (the 50 f/2 APO Lanthar for which we have MTF charts) actually performs a tiny bit better on Sony E mount than it does on Leica M mount.

Further a number of these lenses from Fred's reviews perform very similarly and very competitively with Leica M lenses. Examples include the E mount Voigtlander 28 f/1.5 being smaller with very similar performance to the Leica M 28 lux Asph, and the E mount 50 f/2 APO...Show more →

Understood that E-mount lenses perform well on E-mount bodies. I meant M lenses performing on E-mount ... i.e. not retaining 100% performance across 100% of the lineup.

Which takes us back to two different mount systems. And, if that already exists ... as mentioned that it does, then the competition is already doing what folks are asking them to do to a certain degree. The only caveat is that it forces folks to select from a "partial universe" of M lenses (those that work well on E-mount), coupled with the native E-mount from Voigt, Thypoch, etc.

That said, I think the competition to Leica will stick to the E-mount (or other OEM native, non-M mount) universe. Which means they'll be making their own variant of Corvairs and Mini Coopers, not necessarily Porsches.




Feb 15, 2025 at 05:55 PM
philip_pj
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p.11 #6 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


I have the sense that potentially the best EVF camera for MF lenses was deliberately handicapped in its EVF implementation - the a7rc. I doubt any of them will pursue MF capable bodies with any zeal. They exist in an AF world. All the others are too heavy, large, computers with shutter releases. They even experience problems adapting each others' lenses, E to Z for example. Is there even a single thread about Voigtlander in the Canon forum? M-mount is manual focus central. They all know it, Cosina and DZO/Thypoch produce lenses there first..
Feb 15, 2025 at 07:32 PM
RustyBug
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p.11 #7 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


philip_pj wrote:
I doubt any of them will pursue MF capable bodies with any zeal. They exist in an AF world. All the others are too heavy, large, computers with shutter releases. They even experience problems adapting each others' lenses, E to Z for example. Is there even a single thread about Voigtlander in the Canon forum? M-mount is manual focus central. They all know it, Cosina and DZO/Thypoch produce lenses there first..

This ^
Feb 15, 2025 at 08:55 PM
bwcolor
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p.11 #8 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


Sonnar-7 wrote:
I wouldn’t mind a budget M camera, make it modern, 24MP, a sort of updated M240.
An entry to Leica with specs and an aura that’s alright but doesn’t overstep the M flagship.
I don’t think it’s plausible though.

I might be in the minority and personally I wouldn’t buy one, but this is a very good idea. Leica needs to get younger photographers invested in their system and speaking for myself, it took me many years to be able to afford anything but a used, very old Leica.
Feb 15, 2025 at 09:32 PM
RustyBug
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p.11 #9 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


bwcolor wrote:
I might be in the minority and personally I wouldn’t buy one, but this is a very good idea. Leica needs to get younger photographers invested in their system and speaking for myself, it took me many years to be able to afford anything but a used, very old Leica.

I thought the CL was a very nice entry point into Leica. Granted, it was APS-C and L mount ... but, the excellent implementation of L>M adapter got me into M lenses. Then, it was the jump from EVF > RF in the M240-P.

But, for whatever reason(s) ... they killed it off. I would have gotten the CL2, if it had come to fruition.
Feb 15, 2025 at 09:51 PM
Juha Kannisto
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p.11 #10 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


Sonnar-7 wrote:
I wouldn’t mind a budget M camera, make it modern, 24MP, a sort of updated M240.
An entry to Leica with specs and an aura that’s alright but doesn’t overstep the M flagship.
I don’t think it’s plausible though.

Yeah, the only way I would buy a Leica digital M camera would be if they made an EVF based M at a "normal price" similar to what mid-range full frame mirrorless from other vendors cost. It should have a decent sensor (24 MP would be fine but it should be at least same level as Sony A7C / A7III).

Today I could buy 5 to 6 Sony A7CII (my current daily carry camera of choice) at the same price as one M11-P in Japan. As I also much prefer EVF to a rangefinder for focusing, there's no way to consider a Leica M today. EVF-M model could be interesting but not enough to pay such huge premium.

I already have a nice set of modern and legacy rangefinder lenses (about 30 from Japanese vendors including MS-Optics, Cosina Voigtländer, Kistar, Minolta, Konica, Topcor etc.) as well as 12 native E-mount Voigtländers for my Sony cameras and also 5 native X-mount Voigtländers for my Fuji X-S10. I've mostly only kept rangefinder lenses that work rather well adapted to Sony.
Feb 15, 2025 at 11:11 PM
 


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philip_pj
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p.11 #11 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


I find myself in the position of being maybe the most optimistic person on this camera, and let's hope it sees the light of day. Much depends on how Leica wants to position it in the marketplace. If they wish to preserve the RF Ms in their lofty eyrie, maybe we will see it arrive in more affordable form.

Will it be an SL2-S (say) in an M body, or will it be placed out as the latest and greatest in the line, sitting beside the M11 et al? The latter body is 300% more expensive right now. For incoming people, resale will always be important, how is that likely to go?

How do they see the clientele for it? 90% existing Leica users, or 50/50? If they want more market share and/or initiates, $4000 sounds reasonable for a lot of fence sitters, it seems to me. Much more and it may be seen as a curiosity for insiders.

Here is a video (one of the best I've yet seen) on one of Mandler's greatest - the Summilux 75/1.4. The presenter covers a lot of ground and strikes a chord with my views about the current camera options and lens characteristics as well as doing a fine job with this heavenly lens:
Feb 16, 2025 at 12:46 AM
mboy
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p.11 #12 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


So in essence, apart from the obvious premium over a 'standard' digital M would be, itll be a mirrorless camera made to look like a rangefinder, but with no rangefinder capabilities and no AF? Is that how people see it? Is there something I'm missing?
Feb 16, 2025 at 02:27 AM
Sonnar-7
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p.11 #13 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


Juha Kannisto wrote:
Yeah, the only way I would buy a Leica digital M camera would be if they made an EVF based M at a "normal price" similar to what mid-range full frame mirrorless from other vendors cost. It should have a decent sensor (24 MP would be fine but it should be at least same level as Sony A7C / A7III).

Today I could buy 5 to 6 Sony A7CII (my current daily carry camera of choice) at the same price as one M11-P in Japan. As I also much prefer EVF to a rangefinder for focusing, there's no way...Show more →

I get that Leica is a premium brand, and it is not just for show as their products are second to none. A budget Leica would still be pricey, they could make a 4000 dollars body like a sort of refreshed m240 with an evf or ovf of sort like Fuji did with the X-Pro line.
At that price I wouldn’t buy it(would be tempted though) and I don’t think it would hurt their premium branding.
It would still be an intriguing entry, still too costly, but intringuing is what makes people often go for their products.

Now, would they make non rangefinder coupled budget versions of their most famous lenses for that new line?
Feb 16, 2025 at 03:30 AM
Juha Kannisto
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p.11 #14 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


Sonnar-7 wrote:
I get that Leica is a premium brand, and it is not just for show as their products are second to none. A budget Leica would still be pricey, they could make a 4000 dollars body like a sort of refreshed m240 with an evf or ovf of sort like Fuji did with the X-Pro line.
At that price I wouldn’t buy it(would be tempted though) and I don’t think it would hurt their premium branding.
It would still be an intriguing entry, still too costly, but intringuing is what makes people often go for their products.

Now, would they make non rangefinder...Show more →
Yeah... And since Japanese yen is so weak these days a $4000 camera would be at least 600K yen. SL2-S is about 680K yen as new here currently, so I do agree that somewhere in that range would probably be the lowest they could possibly go for.

In my mind an interesting "budget EVF-M" should have at least the following:

- Native M-mount, manual focus only
- 24MP sensor, similar level as SL2-S, thin sensor stack like digital M generally have to work ideally with M lenses
- Good enough EVF (at least on par with A7CII / A7CR but more resolution / higher magnification would be very nice if they could keep it small enough and not exceed the price target)
- A screen + reasonable amount of physical controls / buttons (would not like all controls to be via touch screen)
- Light body, not more than 550g with battery
- Good battery life
- Reasonable manual focus aids (I'd be satisfied with same level as Sony has, with peaking + magnification)
- Price at same level or below SL2-S
- IBIS would be nice to have but not mandatory if it would throw the weight off or make it too expensive
- Video would not be needed

I think I would not be a good customer for Leica though as I would most likely not buy any of their lenses. I'd mostly be interested in the camera to have thin sensor stack to enable me to use all my M-mount lenses without any sensor stack related issues. The price would still be a bit too high since I'm pretty happy with my current setups already even though there are some compromises due to thicker sensor stack.
Feb 16, 2025 at 04:40 AM
Juha Kannisto
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p.11 #15 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


philip_pj wrote:
I find myself in the position of being maybe the most optimistic person on this camera, and let's hope it sees the light of day. Much depends on how Leica wants to position it in the marketplace. If they wish to preserve the RF Ms in their lofty eyrie, maybe we will see it arrive in more affordable form.

Will it be an SL2-S (say) in an M body, or will it be placed out as the latest and greatest in the line, sitting beside the M11 et al? The latter body is 300% more expensive right now. For incoming...Show more →

I agree with your view on this, and the "SL2-S in an M body" at $4000 or so sounds like the most interesting possibility. However, I'm not so sure they'd go in that direction... I'm more inclined to think that they would make it more like M11 including the pricepoint. I think we'll see something in the EVF-M direction within a year or so in any case.

I watched the video you shared and it was very nicely presented and the photos shown in the video were really great. Thanks for sharing!
Feb 16, 2025 at 07:57 AM
RustyBug
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p.11 #16 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


Juha Kannisto wrote:
- Price at same level or below SL2-S
- IBIS would be nice to have but not mandatory if it would throw the weight off or make it too expensive


These two ^ are probably "not", would be my guess.


I don't think they'd price BELOW the SL2-S. Maybe the same as, but likely a small premium for the smaller form factor of the M. It would still be a BIG $$$ LESS than a flagship M.

IBIS ... nope. It is an M, and to build IBIS into the entry model, without IBIS in the flagship model ... many folks would stick in the entry, with less reason to > flagship. They would see it as a step backwards. If you want IBIS, then the SL is there with the thicker body. If you want the thinner body of an M, you have to accept to forego IBIS.

Alternatively, they COULD put in IBIS and make the body correspondingly thicker (SL without handgrip). Then, folks wanting the thinner body could look to the flagship M. But, since that would basically make it the same size as the former M240 (thickness), it might be "just fine" for many folks, never moving to flagship M.
Feb 16, 2025 at 08:51 AM
wastedimages
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p.11 #17 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


johnvanr wrote:
The external EVF on my M11 doesn’t do much for me, so only a focus experience like the Nikon Zf would make this a perfect setup to combine zone focusing and reliable wide open focusing. I fear the price would hold me back, though.

I don't have any M series camera but this is exactly how I feel as well. At first I was "This could be interesting" however on reflection, although it would be good to use lenses natively, I love the MF aids the ZF gives me and for the probably price of the thing, I wouldn't want to give them up.
If they do include a bunch of EVF based focussing aids, the decision becomes more tempting though like you, I fear price will make this aspirational for me.
Feb 16, 2025 at 09:02 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.11 #18 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


philip_pj wrote:
I have the sense that potentially the best EVF camera for MF lenses was deliberately handicapped in its EVF implementation - the a7rc. I doubt any of them will pursue MF capable bodies with any zeal. They exist in an AF world. All the others are too heavy, large, computers with shutter releases. They even experience problems adapting each others' lenses, E to Z for example. Is there even a single thread about Voigtlander in the Canon forum? M-mount is manual focus central. They all know it, Cosina and DZO/Thypoch produce lenses there first..

I don't think the Sony A7Cr was deliberately handicapped in its EVF implementation. I think they just kept the camera small and the EVF small because of that. I think Sony will likely redesign that camera a bit with the next version (they usually do with every two versions or so) and I would not be surprised at all to see a better EVF. Even a 5.7 million dot EVF would not be surprising to me and would be a nice EVF even if short of their top EVF we see in the A1 II, A9 III, an A7r V.

I don't think Sony is building this camera for MF lenses (from Sony's perspective I imagine it is built for their small G lenses and their ethos to keep camera gear small), but a good EVF is of course useful for AF lenses too, so I don't see Sony holding back this feature for anything other than keeping the size small. I too doubt Sony will build cameras with much if any thought about MF lenses, but I don't think that means what Sony builds (an other manufacturers build) won't compete with a small Leica rangefinder style camera with an EVF. They will, and I expect them to be compelling alternatives and make the sale of the rumored camera a struggle.

With regard to lenses I think you have to look at each company individually. Cosina clearly cares about making lenses for Leica M mount, but they obviously care about making lenses for other mounts too. They have always built great lenses for other mounts than Leica M and I cannot see them abandoning that approach. They even develop some lenses for other mounts first and then port those developed lenses to Leica M mount (the 35 & 50 f/2 APO Lanthars are examples), and they have some lenses that are only developed for other mounts (e.g., the 58 f/1.4 for Nikon F, the 65 and 110 APO Lanthar macro lenses).

I also don't think DZO/Thypoch thinks Leica M first. They clearly, as you know and have shown us, are video centric and Leica M cameras don't fit that goal well at all. They do like the Leica M mount, but it appears a lot of that appreciation is because Leica M mount lenses have a longer register distance and can be adapted to all the mirrorless mounts. It certainly isn't to shoot video on Leica M cameras. I don't see DZO/Thypoch developing a ton of lenses for stills shooting on Leica M cameras. They may develop some along the way, but I expect they will be primarily developing cine lenses and may adopt the Leica M mount for those cine lenses but Leica M lenses with stills cameras will never be their primary thing.

With regard to the Laowa, TT Artisans, 7 Artisans crowd, it seems they develop for mirrorless mounts first and only Leica M mount later. They do not make Leica M a priority although they will likely continue to make some Leica M mount lenses.

I think at this point only Leica and Cosina are building stills lenses primarily thinking about lenses for Leica M cameras. I think they will provide a lot of compelling lenses. More than enough for Leica M shooters, but I also think that several other mounts will have more than enough lenses designed for them through Cosina and other manufacturers that MF lenses will be a compelling option on those mounts too and that means competition for any Leica EVF rangefinder style camera.

Edited on Feb 16, 2025 at 09:26 AM · View previous versions
Feb 16, 2025 at 09:16 AM
RustyBug
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p.11 #19 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


philip_pj wrote:



Transitions ... that is the one word that sums up why I switched to shooting Leica glass from my former mfrs.

The way Leica designs is to incorporate their vast awareness and knowledge of optics and the human vision experience into a rendering the emulates the human physiological experience. Some folks understand and harness this. Others, fight against it with every MTF chart they can get their hands on.

Sure, they have a variety of lens designs that range from glow > acute precision ... but, undergirding that is their ethos for the above, and their understanding of its significance. This (imo) is what sets Leica glass apart from most of its "competition" (really, there isn't a ton of competition in this regard, but some are starting to pick up on it of late ... say Thypoch, Voigt) in the stills glass arena.

Many will say, it doesn't matter ... I can use any glass (and I can). But, I choose to use certain lenses ... and have to learn to harness their inherent attributes to get out of them, what the designers had in mind for the ethos of the design. In other words, don't try to make it something it was never meant to be.

The designers didn't "make mistakes" in the design, they "made decisions" about what they wanted to achieve from the design. Understanding that those goals may not be the same as what other mfr's goals might be (i.e. speed, MTF, obliterating bokeh, etc.) ... I think is the key to appreciating what a given design brings to the table.

It's not to look at a design for what it is not, but look to it for what it is. That, more so than to compare to different designs and be disappointed that it isn't the uber-anything (bokeh, mtf, etc.) of another. Rather, I tend to think that the transitions of approach includes the physiological response in balance, moreover than extreme(s).

For some, the extremes are much more readily seen. For others, the balance is much more appreciated.

Simply put ... when I use my human vision, the background doesn't "melt away", into a butter bokeh that is obliterated and devoid of any form. So, if one is trying to emulate the human physiological response, having transitions that mimic or emulate human vision may offer a response that is different from one that obliterates things beyond the natural vision. How far do we take that ... well, it's a sliding scale. Different folks want to land that in different places, but the point that Leica has an eye to this, and it is imbedded in their ethos for design is (imo) what makes Leica glass as their most desirable attribute of (subtle) distinction. Sure, lots of glass to choose from and varied amounts, but overall ... it's in the Leica DNA.
Feb 16, 2025 at 09:18 AM
BPsmith511
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p.11 #20 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025


RustyBug wrote:
Transitions ... that is the one word that sums up why I switched to shooting Leica glass from my former mfrs.

The way Leica designs is to incorporate their vast awareness and knowledge of optics and the human vision experience into a rendering the emulates the human physiological experience. Some folks understand and harness this. Others, fight against it with every MTF chart they can get their hands on.

Sure, they have a variety of lens designs that range from glow > acute precision ... but, undergirding that is their ethos for the above, and their understanding of its significance. This (imo)...Show more →

Could not have said it better myself. This was a hard lesson to learn in my photography journey, even more so with the constant push online for maximum specs. But I am much happier now that I have learned it.


Feb 16, 2025 at 09:24 AM
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