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Archive 2024 · Canon departure thoughts

  
 
lighthound
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p.16 #1 · Canon departure thoughts


Rather than comparing the A9III to Canon's ancient tech, it would be more accurate to compare it to Canon's R3.
And now with the R1, it's going to make the A9III look even worse.
The funniest part is, Sony sucked another $1,500 USD ($2640 CAD) out of their fanboys for the same lame ass 24mp but worse IQ vs it's predecessor.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53874955112_2567842ea8_h.jpg



Jul 23, 2024 at 08:41 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.16 #2 · Canon departure thoughts


bernardl wrote:
Only Canon applies NR to their raw files at low ISOs.

There are 2 reasons why I prefer cameras not to apply NR:
1. GPU are tens of times more powerful meaning that better NR algorithms can be used (in your 3 use cases #1 will always offer better shadow quality)
2. It enables me to assess the image quality potential of the sensor.

A raw file should be a raw file. Otherwise I would shoot jpg. I guess that many photographers in this very forum consider it a half insult to be asked if they shoot jpg. Well… 🤣

Why does Canon do it?
...Show more

You did not answer the question I asked, at least not in ways that address the real-world photographic question.



Jul 23, 2024 at 08:45 AM
Choderboy
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p.16 #3 · Canon departure thoughts


lighthound wrote:
Rather than comparing the A9III to Canon's ancient tech, it would be more accurate to compare it to Canon's R3.
And now with the R1, it's going to make the A9III look even worse.
The funniest part is, Sony sucked another $1,500 USD ($2640 CAD) out of their fanboys for the same lame ass 24mp but worse IQ vs it's predecessor.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53874955112_2567842ea8_h.jpg


Reason 1: Because Arbitrage already did. Did you miss that? I assume you did as you posted a graph with R3 PDR again.
Reason 2: Mike was reliving his trauma of when people were putting down the 'old DSLRs' for lack of PDR so it was an obvious response to that.

Just as with stacked sensor introduction, Global Shutter has had some impact to Dynamic Range.
Also as with the stacked sensor, GS has provided some benefits too.

No problem for me, we pay much less than you.
A9III currently US $5427 with tax. A1 $5130.

EDIT: A9III US $5,373 with tax.







Jul 23, 2024 at 09:15 AM
Cliff L.
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p.16 #4 · Canon departure thoughts


justinzizian wrote:
In my opinion, if the companies are baking in adjustments it's no longer a RAW file and should be labeled as such. We have a ton of options in camera and post to manipulate the data once it's collected, including noise reduction, and it should stay that way. This is a slippery slope that I could see manufacturers abuse over time instead of providing the best technology and data.


Manufacturers like Nikon started down that slippery slope years ago... they have been manipulating their RAW files by clipping the black point at a predetermined level to suppress noise and increase apparent dynamic range since the early DSLR days. Sony adopted a similar noise reduction strategy early on in their full-frame mirrorless cameras (starting with the A7R II, I believe). Canon was late to the party with their RAW file noise reduction, but in the end, it's the results that count, and users of all three brands are pretty happy with those results.



Jul 23, 2024 at 09:46 AM
chez
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p.16 #5 · Canon departure thoughts




AmbientMike wrote:
But your last 2 post are massively stupid

As much trouble as you have caused on the Canon board pushing your stupid Sony, and as much of that involved running down DSLR'S for having low DR, you have no business whatsoever taking up for a low DR $6k Sony, having older DSLR level DR, on the Canon board.

Talking up for GDan may have been a waste of time, but you still acted like an 11 year old at recess. So you have no business whatsoever telling me I'm childish


My points proven.



Jul 23, 2024 at 09:59 AM
AmbientMike
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p.16 #6 · Canon departure thoughts




chez wrote:
My points proven.


You have been one of the biggest problem sony trolls in the past. No interest in letting you have a nuanced discussion trying to save the A9III from the same DR Canon DSLR'S got beat down over.

You have been extremely childish, as well. Go preach at someone else, or maybe follow your own advice.

Those 2 posts are some of the most unbelievable I have seem on FM. No interest in your hypocritical preaching



Jul 23, 2024 at 10:25 AM
Tony5787
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p.16 #7 · Canon departure thoughts


So I can give you an example, I’ve spent the last three years trying to get a shot of a swallow at ground level catching a gnat while coming straight at me. Getting the decisive moment in situations like this at 30fps is extremely difficult. I’ve literally shot probably 50k photos at this point and the closest I’ve gotten was a heavy crop that required cloning because some idiot decided to walk their white dog right behind where the bird happened to be lol I’m also well aware of the a9 III’s IQ issues at high ISO which is another reason I’ve been hesitant to make the switch. I just really can’t understand how Canon can only manage to squeeze 40fps out of the R1, even the R6 Mark II shoots 40fps and the R3 has the gimmicky mode where you can shoot almost 200fps with focus and exposure locked.

Also let me just be clear, I’m not trashing Canon I think the R5 Mark II could be a great camera. I’m just disappointed that after all this time waiting for the R1 it came out with specs so similar to the R3.

johnvanr wrote:
You have me wondering what that “something different and unique” could possibly be.




Jul 23, 2024 at 10:26 AM
bernardl
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p.16 #8 · Canon departure thoughts




gdanmitchell wrote:
You did not answer the question I asked, at least not in ways that address the real-world photographic question.


How so? Better image quality is the answer to your question.

Cheers,
Bernard



Jul 23, 2024 at 03:19 PM
bernardl
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p.16 #9 · Canon departure thoughts




molson wrote:
Manufacturers like Nikon started down that slippery slope years ago... they have been manipulating their RAW files by clipping the black point at a predetermined level to suppress noise and increase apparent dynamic range since the early DSLR days. Sony adopted a similar noise reduction strategy early on in their full-frame mirrorless cameras (starting with the A7R II, I believe). Canon was late to the party with their RAW file noise reduction, but in the end, it's the results that count, and users of all three brands are pretty happy with those results.


Simply not true. That doesn’t change DR numbers.

I understand your urge to paint Nikon in bad light now that you have joined your friends in what you seem to perceive as the “Canon camp”, but how about sticking to facts?

Cheers,
Bernard



Jul 23, 2024 at 03:21 PM
johnvanr
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p.16 #10 · Canon departure thoughts


Tony5787 wrote:
So I can give you an example, I’ve spent the last three years trying to get a shot of a swallow at ground level catching a gnat while coming straight at me. Getting the decisive moment in situations like this at 30fps is extremely difficult. I’ve literally shot probably 50k photos at this point and the closest I’ve gotten was a heavy crop that required cloning because some idiot decided to walk their white dog right behind where the bird happened to be lol I’m also well aware of the a9 III’s IQ issues at high ISO which is another
...Show more

Well, good luck! I can barely follow a swallow, no matter which camera I use.



Jul 23, 2024 at 03:30 PM
bernardl
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p.16 #11 · Canon departure thoughts


Tony5787 wrote:
So I can give you an example, I’ve spent the last three years trying to get a shot of a swallow at ground level catching a gnat while coming straight at me. Getting the decisive moment in situations like this at 30fps is extremely difficult. I’ve literally shot probably 50k photos at this point and the closest I’ve gotten was a heavy crop that required cloning because some idiot decided to walk their white dog right behind where the bird happened to be lol I’m also well aware of the a9 III’s IQ issues at high ISO which is another
...Show more

You could perhaps rent a Z9 and 400mm f2.8 TC and see whether it’s 60fps jpg DX crop mode (19 mp) is of any help? I believe you can combine that with pre-capture (not 100% positive, sorry).

We all prefer to shoot raw, but the reality is that many top pro sport photographers use jpg all the time and the Z9’s jpg are excellent.

Cheers,
Bernard



Jul 23, 2024 at 03:45 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.16 #12 · Canon departure thoughts


Rather than adding to the troll wars, brand wars, and spec wars, I want to take up this point:

Tony5787 wrote:
I’m in a very similar situation as Dorian, I’ve been shooting with Canon now for about a decade
.


Up front: This will be long. If that’s a problem for anyone in the forum, feel free to skip it.

“Situation” is the key word here, and it is useful to remember that — as you again point out — there’s no one perfect, right, best, obvious solution for everyone to every equipment question.

My particular situation is pretty different than yours and Dorians, but it is no less a situation that leaves me both less enthusiastic (though not entirely unenthusiastic) about Canon and more interested in considering alternatives.

I use two different brands of gear at this point, but I’ll try to leave the other one out of the discussion at this point. I’ve used Canon as my only or my primary system for two decades (slightly plus) and I’ve overall been very happy with it for what I do. At the same time, I’ve understood that there are perfectly fine reasons that explain why others might prefer an alternative — that used to mean Nikon for most people, but that circle of full frame gear now expands to include at least Sony. Sometimes one of those brands has done something that I thought was pretty darned appealing, but it wasn’t enough to counteract the way the Canon system was working for me, and certainly not enough to persuade me to give up an entire system and move to another.

For me, the primary driver has been (loosely defined) landscape photography plus some serious tripod-based night photography that we might think of as industrial landscapes. I work from the tripod and I print up to relatively large sizes. (I have a P9000.) I value higher resolution over camera speed. And when the Canon 5DS and 5DsR were introduced almost a decade ago they were pretty much perfect for what I do. I went with the 5DsR.

(Side note: I do some bird photography, seriously enough to sell and license some of the work. And I’ve been able to do it with the 5DsR. I know that may sound nuts to many traditional bird photographers, but it works for me.)

As I watched many of my friends who do similar work switch to (mostly) Sony and (a very few) Nikon, I was skeptical. Despite the attractions of those systems, the costs of doing a system change seemed excessive for what I regarded to be relatively small and likely temporary advantages. So I have stuck with that same system since I got it back when it was introduced, and it has continued to serve me well. More modern cameras would, no doubt, work better for the bird photography component, but the idea of replacing the entire system still did not appeal.

Over the past few years I have watched several interesting things take place:

1. Sony has gone from its original outsider FF mirrorless status (remember having to adapt virtually all lenses for that system?) to a very sophisticated system with a complete line of lenses and multiple body types, including some that are arguably industry leaders.

2. Nikon, a bit to my surprise, appears to perhaps be coming back from its near-death experience and producing some really excellent gear — though I’m not sure that it exceeds what Sony is doing overall.

3. Fujifilm has produced a very impressive high resolution miniMF system that does a few things that the other systems cannot do, though it is hampered (in the context of my needs) by gaps in their lens offerings. I remain hopeful and occasionally tempted.

4. Canon has continued to produce solid, well built cameras, but has moved to an entirely new RF lens system. Despite years of hints and rumors of a high MP successor to the 5Ds/5DsR bodies, there has been no actual movement — we are now two generations into the R5 cameras and there is still no indication that such a camera will ever come.

From my personal photographic perspective, Canon has gone from being generally the best suited for what I do, or so close to it that it made no sense to consider others, to introducing new cameras that arguably do not achieve what the competition achieved with previous models. That’s backwards from what we usually expect — we tend to see each new generation move ahead of the prior generations of its competition.

Normally, I still would not be quick to consider alternatives. I’ll accept an incremental “less” status from the gear I’m using rather than go to the trouble of switching out lens systems in order to get a marginal improvement, especially when I expect that the next iteration of my brand will likely overcome those incremental differences. But what is also different now is that Canon’s new RF lens system is 9he of the pluses of the new R bodies, and I’m not at all likely to simply stick adapters on my existing EF lenses. If I stay with Canon I’m just about as likely to need to buy new (expensive) lenses as if I try a different brand.

So FROM MY PERSPECTIVE and IN MY SITUATION, this seems like one of those rare inflection points when it does make sense to consider other brands. And when I do I find that those brands are offering things of value to me that Canon isn’t supporting and doesn’t look to be supporting going forward.

Again, if you (are still reading this and you) still prefer Canon, I accept that you have fine reasons for doing so — but maybe accept that others who look at this from a different perspective many not come to the same conclusion.

Edited on Jul 23, 2024 at 10:13 PM · View previous versions



Jul 23, 2024 at 04:14 PM
dorian
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p.16 #13 · Canon departure thoughts


Dan’s above post is very clear and echos my feelings as I consider a switch. Will it happen? Dunno, mostly for financial reasons. But there are some really, really compelling reasons (i.e. other products) to consider as I ponder the prospect.

All that said, I cannot believe the amount of discussion my original post generated. Most responses were civil and informative, so thanks for those. I learned quite a bit. Cheers.



Jul 23, 2024 at 04:46 PM
Rudy Pohl
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p.16 #14 · Canon departure thoughts


gdanmitchell wrote:
Rather than adding to the troll wars, brand wars, and spec wars, I want to take up this point:

So FROM MY PERSPECTIVE and IN MY SITUATION, this seems like one of those rare inflection points when it does make sense to consider other brands. And when I do I find that those brands are offering things of value to me that Canon isn’t supporting and doesn’t look to be supporting going forward.

Again, if you (are still reading this and you) still prefer Canon, I accept that you have fine reasons for doing so — but maybe accept that others
...Show more

Very well explained and articulated. Thanks for posting this.

Rudy




Jul 23, 2024 at 05:19 PM
tctmp
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p.16 #15 · Canon departure thoughts


gdanmitchell wrote:
Rather than adding to the troll wars, brand wars, and spec wars, I want to take up this point:

Up front: This will be long. If that’s a problem for anyone in the forum, feel free to skip it.

“Situation” is the key word here, and it is useful to remember that — as you again point out — there’s no one perfect, right, best, obvious solution for everyone to every equipment question.

My particular situation is pretty different than yours and Dorians, but it is no less a situation that leaves me both less enthusiastic (though not entirely unenthusiastic) about
...Show more

To summarize, it's the perception and personal projection by drawing a trend line over the last few years and ask the question "what am I going to get over the next few years if I stay".

That's exactly what happened to Nikon users years ago when they waited a long time for the mirrorless models to come, hoped the management's propaganda's about some leading edge mirrorless were true, and then saw the behind time Z6/Z7 released. I don't think Nikon has ever recovered most of those users who left then yet.



Jul 23, 2024 at 05:25 PM
bballfreak6
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p.16 #16 · Canon departure thoughts


gdanmitchell wrote:
Rather than adding to the troll wars, brand wars, and spec wars, I want to take up this point:

Up front: This will be long. If that’s a problem for anyone in the forum, feel free to skip it.

“Situation” is the key word here, and it is useful to remember that — as you again point out — there’s no one perfect, right, best, obvious solution for everyone to every equipment question.

My particular situation is pretty different than yours and Dorians, but it is no less a situation that leaves me both less enthusiastic (though not entirely unenthusiastic) about
...Show more

Read only the first and last few pages for sh!ts and gigs but honestly I don't understand these kind of threads where someone feels the need to make a declaration post to everyone else that they're switching systems like it's of great importance; followed up by specific people who feels that *insert your particular brand* is not innovating or lagging behind because what the particular brand offers does not appeal to that SPECIFIC INDIVIDUAL.

For example how many years now have we heard the same sentiment from individuals that Canon is lagging behind and everyone's going to abandon Canon if they don't catch up yet to this very day Canon continues to outsell everyone else including the mirrorless market once they decided to get serious with it. You don't think Canon does any market research and ask professionals and the like what they want to see in a camera system? What YOU want in a system is not representative of what EVERYONE ELSE wants.

Of course that's not to say Canon does everything right or have a perfect system, I did survive through those horrible shadow recovery sensor days as a LANDSCAPE SHOOTER but today the tech is so advanced and you're really talking about minute differences/advantages brands have on each other it's laughable to see individuals make statements as if one company doing some much worse than the other, again based on their OWN needs and interpretation as opposed to everyone else. Like some individual here harping on about cooked raw files; again as if other brands haven't done the same thing and I'd wager put a bunch of properly processed files from different brands together said person wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

But hey maybe I'm just talking out of my arse, I am after all shooting with just a peasant grade R6II (would've stayed with the OG R6 if my mate's shop didn't offer me a great trade in deal/camera was on sale/was going overseas so claimed tax back on the new body) and god forbid an ancient pre-historic tech 77D for my deep sky astro stuff; also that I've only shot landscape/astro/people/events/weddings/food and only the occasional bird/wildlife and not the high demand wildlife stuff to have any idea of what I am talking about.

Edited on Jul 23, 2024 at 05:46 PM · View previous versions



Jul 23, 2024 at 05:38 PM
bernardl
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p.16 #17 · Canon departure thoughts


gdanmitchell wrote:
Rather than adding to the troll wars, brand wars, and spec wars, I want to take up this point:

Up front: This will be long. If that’s a problem for anyone in the forum, feel free to skip it.

“Situation” is the key word here, and it is useful to remember that — as you again point out — there’s no one perfect, right, best, obvious solution for everyone to every equipment question.

My particular situation is pretty different than yours and Dorians, but it is no less a situation that leaves me both less enthusiastic (though not entirely unenthusiastic) about
...Show more

If I were you I would go Fuji GFX.

The 100s/100II I have been using as main camera for landscape excel at that. And zero messing with raw files. Colors are great through Capture One pro, IBIS is truly fantastic and it'd really possible to get critically sharp images mid-day without using a tripod which is great for some situations when time matters. Here is a sample, I can send you a full res image if you'd like.



Their 20-35mm is superb, their 120mm f4 macro absolutely top notch, they T/S lenses are the best ever designed IMHO.

The AF of the 100II is not great but still probably superior to your current equipment. Fuji now has their 500mm f5.6 that is a reasonable option for the wildlife component of your work.

For what it’s worth most of my recent landscape and old Japan work was captured with the 100II. https://www.instagram.com/bernard.languillier?igsh=d3g3eGdzMHJuZDB5&utm_source=qr

Cheers,
Bernard


Edited on Jul 23, 2024 at 06:34 PM · View previous versions



Jul 23, 2024 at 05:42 PM
Gochugogi
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p.16 #18 · Canon departure thoughts


The Canon R system now has a silly amount of features, options and choices in their system—almost all things to all people. The hybrid stills/video integration advances a level with each new generation of models. I'm actually overwhelmed and only need a fraction of the features my R7 and R6 MK II offer. More than enough for chasing butterflies and lizards or videoing music performances and tutorials for my YouTube channel.

Obviously, photogs here considering leaving Canon shoot in specialized niches on the bleeding edge outside the mainstream. I've switched systems 3 times during my life to gain certain features and, without exception, these companies always leapfrogged one another with features and new technologies. How long until Canon has a 100MP CMOS or a low noise global e-shutter model? I have no idea but likely years from now. Most of Canon's customers will not buy (or can't afford) such an expensive high performance camera. Thus, the appearance of such a design is likely a low priority. If profits are high enough, perhaps Canon will release a cutting edge niche camera as a demonstration of their corporate might and eat the R&R loss for the resulting good marketing.



Jul 23, 2024 at 06:11 PM
bernardl
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p.16 #19 · Canon departure thoughts


lighthound wrote:
Rather than comparing the A9III to Canon's ancient tech, it would be more accurate to compare it to Canon's R3.
And now with the R1, it's going to make the A9III look even worse.
The funniest part is, Sony sucked another $1,500 USD ($2640 CAD) out of their fanboys for the same lame ass 24mp but worse IQ vs it's predecessor.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53874955112_2567842ea8_h.jpg


It's a reasonable price to pay in exchange for the unique abilities of the a9III. If you removed your brand googles you may realize that. I am sure you would understand better if it featured a Canon logo.

One sample captured in the super harsh mid day sun of Mumbai in India. Seems usable to me. Sorry, no birds. I got about 0.5s to frame this one through the opened window of the car I was in. A once in a life time opportunity. Glad the AF was spot on. I realize I probably dialed the WB a bit too cold on this one. Colors (including WB) remain a challenging topic with Sony compared to Nikon and Fuji (and probably compared to Canon also).



Another one during a dance rehearsal in June featuring the wonderful Rina Furuoya.



And, once more, the low ISO numbers of the R3 are not real sensor DR. They are meaningless.

Cheers,
Bernard


Edited on Jul 23, 2024 at 08:08 PM · View previous versions



Jul 23, 2024 at 06:15 PM
numbertwo
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p.16 #20 · Canon departure thoughts


bernardl wrote:
It's a reasonable price to pay in exchange for the unique abilities of the a9III. If you removed your brand googles you may realize that. I am sure you would understand better if it featured a Canon logo.

And, once more, the low ISO numbers of the R3 are not real sensor DR. They are meaningless.

Cheers,
Bernard


The A9iii also has noise reduction if that’s what you mean. You can see in the graph and read the legend.
Can you show proof of lose of detail for the amount of noise reduction that Canon applies in the shadows in raw?
For Sony noise reduction we can read about the star eater issue for sure. All brands are applying some sort of raw cleaning…



Jul 23, 2024 at 06:21 PM
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