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Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)

  
 
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p.5 #1 · p.5 #1 · Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)


highdesertmesa wrote:
Some of the poor experiences you read online are real, but many are trolls that mostly haunt Leica Forum but occasionally do the same thing here. As soon as they're banned on Leica Forum, they make a new account and try again in a few days. Any new account there or here posting their "oh goodness me" experience should be taken with a grain of salt. Their purpose is to rally the same group of us who have had problems and get us to discuss it all over again. That helps create a poor impression of the brand, and even
...Show more

I've noticed some instances where new members might make subjective claims about Leica cameras and then leave the discussion. If this becomes a recurring issue, perhaps we could consider locking or removing those threads to keep the focus on productive conversation. (without potentially gaslighting Leica)



Apr 10, 2024 at 01:56 PM
retrofocus
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p.5 #2 · p.5 #2 · Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)


highdesertmesa wrote:
Some of the poor experiences you read online are real, but many are trolls that mostly haunt Leica Forum but occasionally do the same thing here. As soon as they're banned on Leica Forum, they make a new account and try again in a few days. Any new account there or here posting their "oh goodness me" experience should be taken with a grain of salt. Their purpose is to rally the same group of us who have had problems and get us to discuss it all over again. That helps create a poor impression of the brand, and even
...Show more

I don't fully agree with this. I am part of the Leica Forum since years, and have seen that this is a brand-centric and brand-controlled forum where moderators very often put a blanket over any kind of criticism which can potentially harm sales. Moderators often try to minimize the shown issue including lots of brand supporters in this forum. I have only seen trolling in very few posts there, but much more so removing or "merging" of threads with content clearly displaying factual issues. "Poor impression of the brand" can be valid if things go wrong - and Leica had factually a few of them in recent times. This sad, Leica Forum is associated with Leica itself, so the reaction to undermine criticism is sort of expected there.

FM is not brand-centric and therefore IMO should be open for criticism related to gear issues. That an OP posts and disappears actually occurs also in posts not critical to anything - some ask for help with something but never reply to any response given. Just cherry-picking the ones criticizing something with gear and disappearing after the posting is IMO the wrong path.



Apr 10, 2024 at 02:56 PM
retrofocus
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p.5 #3 · p.5 #3 · Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)


Fred Miranda wrote:
I've noticed some instances where new members might make subjective claims about Leica cameras and then leave the discussion. If this becomes a recurring issue, perhaps we could consider locking or removing those threads to keep the focus on productive conversation. (without potentially gaslighting Leica)


This is very tricky - who decides what is gaslighting or what later actually is proven a true issue Leica might have. The film-scratch issue is a good example here - in the beginning it might sound like gaslighting, lots of commenters tried to deny the issue by claiming user error. But in later weeks, more and more started describing the same issue and showing proof - even including the MP. Turns out it is an issue - but imagine it was removed quickly by considering it gaslighting.



Apr 10, 2024 at 03:00 PM
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p.5 #4 · p.5 #4 · Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)


retrofocus wrote:
This is very tricky - who decides what is gaslighting or what later actually is proven a true issue Leica might have. The film-scratch issue is a good example here - in the beginning it might sound like gaslighting, lots of commenters tried to deny the issue by claiming user error. But in later weeks, more and more started describing the same issue and showing proof - even including the MP. Turns out it is an issue - but imagine it was removed quickly by considering it gaslighting.


Identifying threads started by new members who go silent is crucial.



Apr 10, 2024 at 03:04 PM
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p.5 #5 · p.5 #5 · Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)


retrofocus wrote:
I don't fully agree with this. I am part of the Leica Forum since years, and have seen that this is a brand-centric and brand-controlled forum where moderators very often put a blanket over any kind of criticism which can potentially harm sales. Moderators often try to minimize the shown issue including lots of brand supporters in this forum. I have only seen trolling in very few posts there, but much more so removing or "merging" of threads with content clearly displaying factual issues. "Poor impression of the brand" can be valid if things go wrong - and Leica had
...Show more

Yeah, nah. Sorry, this is false.

The Leica forum LUF does have a connection with Leica in that Leica get their firmware testing done through it and they read that forum. But Leica don't control it or own it. The do use it as a conduit between Leica and their user base because LUF is also based in Germany.

You don't start this thread if you're trying to hide or downplay issues with the M11.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/389223-case-collection-freezes-with-leica-m11-m11-m-m11-p-and-firmware-v-202/

LUF's relationship with Leica means that if you leak embargoed information you'll be banned immediately. There's one specific person who does this repeatedly under new names. They also don't tolerate just bagging the brand for no reason or for reasons such as cost etc. It is a fan site after all. But the M11 freeze thread there is alive and well. The SL3 is getting plenty of heat at the moment. Sure, there are a few fanboy members there but most are reasonably levelheaded. Many use multiple brands.

The other alternative it to let everyone loose and then you get the shit show that is DPR's forums.

Gordon



Apr 10, 2024 at 05:30 PM
retrofocus
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p.5 #6 · p.5 #6 · Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)


flash wrote:
Yeah, nah. Sorry, this is false.

The Leica forum LUF does have a connection with Leica in that Leica get their firmware testing done through it and they read that forum. But Leica don't control it or own it. The do use it as a conduit between Leica and their user base because LUF is also based in Germany.

You don't start this thread if you're trying to hide or downplay issues with the M11.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/389223-case-collection-freezes-with-leica-m11-m11-m-m11-p-and-firmware-v-202/

LUF's relationship with Leica means that if you leak embargoed information you'll be banned immediately. There's one specific person who does this repeatedly under new names. They also
...Show more

Maybe it's because I never felt addicted to a specific brand or gear - I seem to be pretty immune when it comes to brand-centric opinionated talks. It is true that Leica Forum allows some critical threats - where it cannot be denied anymore further because the issue is too known. But there are many tricks - actually they are also applied in social media currently in general - to discredit or dismiss non mainstream based opinions without instantly deleting a critical post. Several moderators at Leica forum are pretty good in practicing these - I learned quickly to stay out of gear centric discussions there and focus on the much less moderated and calmer image sections instead for example. The film community is another good one there where good advice is shared and the brand itself plays a secondary role.

I didn't much use DPR forum in the past, but I liked that all opinions were accepted there. If I didn't like a comment section, I just moved on and let it be. Very simple.



Apr 10, 2024 at 07:19 PM
retrofocus
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p.5 #7 · p.5 #7 · Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)


Fred Miranda wrote:
Identifying threads started by new members who go silent is crucial.


Nowadays there are many options for someone asking for example for advice to solve a problem to find an answer. A newbie on FM might simply post a question and then get the desired answer elsewhere on social networks that there is no need to come back. Doesn't mean this person wouldn't use the FM membership another time - maybe with more commenting to a raised thread.

Trolling seems in the eye of the beholder - we had here an example of someone placing a few startling comments which aggravated some members who pushed to have his account shut down which obviously happened. Then he created a new account to continue - I personally didn't find his comments trolling but certainly a bit more critical than usual. Maybe he should have been ignoring some push-back comments instead of digging the hole deeper - but I wouldn't consider this trolling. It was a heated discussion, yes. He didn't like some of Leica's offerings and criticized it - but with describing personal experiences why he got frustrated.

Where I would recommend to block is in very rare cases where vulgar language is used or related to Spam.



Apr 10, 2024 at 07:35 PM
flash
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p.5 #8 · p.5 #8 · Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)


retrofocus wrote:
Nowadays there are many options for someone asking for example for advice to solve a problem to find an answer. A newbie on FM might simply post a question and then get the desired answer elsewhere on social networks that there is no need to come back. Doesn't mean this person wouldn't use the FM membership another time - maybe with more commenting to a raised thread.

Trolling seems in the eye of the beholder - we had here an example of someone placing a few startling comments which aggravated some members who pushed to have his account shut down
...Show more

My personal criteria are very simple.

1. Attack the argument and never the person.
2. Using a forum to advertise your shitty website or *presets*.
3. Telling someone their camera/lens/flash/filter/tripod is shit even though you've never owned said peice of shit.

Gordon

p.s. I'm Australian. We don't have any case where language is vulgar. Except if you're addressing the person in the chair in front of you as *your honour*...



Apr 10, 2024 at 08:11 PM
flash
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p.5 #9 · p.5 #9 · Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)


retrofocus wrote:
Maybe it's because I never felt addicted to a specific brand or gear - I seem to be pretty immune when it comes to brand-centric opinionated talks. It is true that Leica Forum allows some critical threats - where it cannot be denied anymore further because the issue is too known. But there are many tricks - actually they are also applied in social media currently in general - to discredit or dismiss non mainstream based opinions without instantly deleting a critical post. Several moderators at Leica forum are pretty good in practicing these - I learned quickly to stay
...Show more

Again, no. The M11 freeze issue was on LUF from Jan 2022. That's just a couple of months after release. Hardly a cover up. Actually, probably one of the first places you'll find the issue mentioned. That thread has 2000 posts. Still on the first page of the M11 forum. Not hidden. Anyone can read it. Even without joining. So, kind of the opposite of what you're saying.

Some individuals may have a problem with their new baby being criticised (LUF isn't the only place that happens), but the forum owners did NOT act to discredit or dismiss people with faulty cameras. There's nothing wrong with asking for clarification and potential problem solving.

Gordon



Apr 10, 2024 at 08:24 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.5 #10 · p.5 #10 · Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)


Fred Miranda wrote:
I've noticed some instances where new members might make subjective claims about Leica cameras and then leave the discussion. If this becomes a recurring issue, perhaps we could consider locking or removing those threads to keep the focus on productive conversation. (without potentially gaslighting Leica)


At LUF, they seem to have some way of knowing if it's the problem person or persons perhaps the behavior + they're a new user + their IP address (could be an obviously fake IP from using a relay, or the IP isn't masked, and it's always from the same location).

It doesn't seem to be much of an issue here. They get bored with the helpful replies and the fact that a lot of us have the same criticisms of Leica anyway



Apr 10, 2024 at 09:57 PM
 


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highdesertmesa
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p.5 #11 · p.5 #11 · Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)


retrofocus wrote:
I don't fully agree with this. I am part of the Leica Forum since years, and have seen that this is a brand-centric and brand-controlled forum where moderators very often put a blanket over any kind of criticism which can potentially harm sales. Moderators often try to minimize the shown issue including lots of brand supporters in this forum. I have only seen trolling in very few posts there, but much more so removing or "merging" of threads with content clearly displaying factual issues. "Poor impression of the brand" can be valid if things go wrong - and Leica had
...Show more

There are two very different types of negative posts at LUF: genuine posts which run the gamut from harsh to mild, and IMO should not be nor need to be moderated, and those that are obviously troll posts. It's always a new user starting a new negative thread, often about a topic for which there is already a running thread about the same topic (M11 freezing for example). They always have a username that sounds familiar. Usernames are like handwriting, and by the time you've seen 40-50 of them from the same person (just in a year), they start to sound familiar when you see the next one. Their most recent username cracked me up, it was, "Summifux" with an "F" instead of an "L" I've been reporting their posts there when I think they're suspicious, and usually the content will be reviewed and removed. But lest you think they just get rid of negative posts when reported, they don't. I've had them reply by PM and tell me that no, the post I reported was not from one of the recurring problem person or persons.



Apr 10, 2024 at 10:07 PM
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p.5 #12 · p.5 #12 · Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)


wdshuck wrote:
You are not helping my wallet 🤣 I have been very tempted to upgrade my M10.


But I am helping your souls and getting the best life has to offer. Your wallet will quickly get over it.

Seriously I upgraded from an M10-P. Well sort of, I kept the M10-P because I can't bring myself to sell it. I have not regrated it at all. The M11 is a very worthwhile upgrade on many levels. But as I have said I somehow ended up with a problem free version.




Apr 10, 2024 at 10:26 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.5 #13 · p.5 #13 · Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)


highdesertmesa wrote:
At LUF, they seem to have some way of knowing if it's the problem person or persons perhaps the behavior + they're a new user + their IP address (could be an obviously fake IP from using a relay, or the IP isn't masked, and it's always from the same location).

It doesn't seem to be much of an issue here. They get bored with the helpful replies and the fact that a lot of us have the same criticisms of Leica anyway


I enjoy the LUF forum and have posted there a few times as well. However, I recognize that there is more balance here because we are not aligned with any specific brand. I am willing to criticize Leica when necessary, and I'm open to using third-party lenses with the system, which might encourage others to freely express their opinions without restriction.



Apr 10, 2024 at 10:56 PM
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p.5 #14 · p.5 #14 · Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)


flash wrote:
Again, no. The M11 freeze issue was on LUF from Jan 2022. That's just a couple of months after release. Hardly a cover up. Actually, probably one of the first places you'll find the issue mentioned. That thread has 2000 posts. Still on the first page of the M11 forum. Not hidden. Anyone can read it. Even without joining. So, kind of the opposite of what you're saying.

Some individuals may have a problem with their new baby being criticised (LUF isn't the only place that happens), but the forum owners did NOT act to discredit or dismiss people with faulty
...Show more

I found it interesting one guy analyzed all the M11 freezing posts and found that about 50% (don't remember the exact percentage) was from 4 individuals. The one guy said that his comments in the thread were supportive so a few hundred posts could be subtracted from the total of hundreds.



Apr 12, 2024 at 07:32 PM
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p.5 #15 · p.5 #15 · Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)


stgrove wrote:
I found it interesting one guy analyzed all the M11 freezing posts and found that about 50% (don't remember the exact percentage) was from 4 individuals. The one guy said that his comments in the thread were supportive so a few hundred posts could be subtracted from the total of hundreds.


That's entirely possible. I don't know. And the M11 has and is still very very popular so the percentage of issues is relatively small.

That doesn't mean that the issues aren't real or should be taken lightly. There's an official thread on LUF where you can register if you have issues and that's monitored by Leica (they asked for it). That's possibly a more accurate set of numbers??

My M11 has been fine, from release day. But I do feel for those who have issues. I had an issue early on where if auto review was turned off the camera would have an episode. I've been using the review on hold function since about week two with the camera and no more problems. That and the usual for Leica. Memory cards. Unfortunately, that's all I can suggest to people.

Gordon



Apr 13, 2024 at 01:30 AM
zhangyue
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p.5 #16 · p.5 #16 · Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)


I just bought M11p brand new a few weeks ago, and it freezes once by far. (internal memory, single shot mode, JPEG large only) This is my 3rd M11x. I pre-order/bought M11 new and then later M11M new, both occasionally freeze. I don't think this is a PPM issue, I don't even think this is % issue but believe it is a design flaw inherent within M11 camera and just a matter of when it will show the problem under certain cases.

I have to say, this doesn't prevent M11 is the best M I ever used. I am willing to take the trade off because I enjoy M shooting and this is the best M camera I ever used.



Apr 13, 2024 at 03:51 AM
stgrove
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p.5 #17 · p.5 #17 · Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)


flash wrote:
That's entirely possible. I don't know. And the M11 has and is still very very popular so the percentage of issues is relatively small.

That doesn't mean that the issues aren't real or should be taken lightly. There's an official thread on LUF where you can register if you have issues and that's monitored by Leica (they asked for it). That's possibly a more accurate set of numbers??

My M11 has been fine, from release day. But I do feel for those who have issues. I had an issue early on where if auto review was turned off the camera would have
...Show more

I have two M11 and one M11M and not one has had a freeze. One M11 was from day one announcement (the second M11 was obtained about 3 months after announcement day) and the M11M was from day one announcement. I had Sony Tough card uses with my M10M's so have not used that type of card in my M11x. I use internal for backup so all DNG data recorded to both internal and SD card. No jpegs. I most often shoot single mode, but even on continuous mode no issues.
I too feel sorry for those having always freezing issues, but after a few problem freezes I would go right back to the store I purchased it from and get it resolved immediately, even if having to wait for a replacement camera.



Apr 13, 2024 at 08:20 PM
1bwana1
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p.5 #18 · p.5 #18 · Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)


I thought I had a freeze today. I had been shooting in studio with strobes. So, I had turned of all the battery saving settings. So out shooting I brought the camera to my eye and nothing. Quickly popped the battery in and out, still nothing. I thought that the camera had totally bricked. Then while futzing around trying to get it going again I turned on the rear screen. Got the out of battery warning. Put in a fresh battery and all was perfect again. But all the talk about freezes had me defaulting to thinking that was the problem. Messing with my head.

Thank God, just an idiot operator error. Waiting for a firmware fix for that...



Apr 13, 2024 at 08:58 PM
fecone
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p.5 #19 · p.5 #19 · Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)


idk about you guys but I am checking daily for rumors leading up to the announcement. while we're at it any suggestions on how to get on a waitlist to purchase in case it is limited release?


Apr 19, 2024 at 12:22 AM
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p.5 #20 · p.5 #20 · Leica M11-D to be announced in May (postponed to June)


Leica is hinting at it, too.

https://www.threads.net/@leica_camera/post/C50t4MeCY8L/?xmt=AQGzhFSq_9awkjCA3sD610hHNCv2BCcMn_BTvgA590szKQ



Apr 19, 2024 at 07:38 AM
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