p.5 #2 · The Leica M11-P is expected to be released by November 2023
Fred Miranda wrote:
Hi Gordon,
Do you know if this works with adapted lenses without electronic contacts?
Voigtlander Z optics seem to have contacts. Bobby Tonelli had a nice utube video about using the follow focus feature using Voigtlander lenses as well as his 58 f1.2 lens.
p.5 #3 · The Leica M11-P is expected to be released by November 2023
ftllens wrote:
Didn't the R5 do manual focus area assist a while ago?...
It's the R and RP that can do this. Given that the feature was intentionally left off of the R5/6, I have to think it was an firmware glitch that when the AF settings were left in eye-AF mode, it would allow eye/face detection with manual focus lenses if they were electronically connected. I think the firmware assumed any electronically connected lens was an RF or adapted EF autofocus lens and in this case being used in manual focus mode. Given what we know about Canon, they probably thought that leaving eye-AF tracking enabled for non-Canon lenses like this could be a threat to sales of their RF lenses. Typical Canon behavior if that was the case.
p.5 #4 · The Leica M11-P is expected to be released by November 2023
flash wrote:
I'm not sure. I haven't played with this function. I have resisted getting a Zf. And it's been very VERY tempting. But I don't need another 24MP camera and I never use my Z7. So far I've resisted, which is rare for me. I even played with one in the store for a few minutes and didn't buy it. But damn it's a nice camera. I see absolutely no comparison to the SL2 at all frankly. It's more like a big beautiful XT-5.
Plus I've been back from Mongolia/Japan less than two weeks and have picked up three new cameras already.??
My Zf arrived yesterday, and it is a great camera. My only complaint is a familiar one, which is why in the world did they combine PASM with manual dials instead of just putting an AUTO setting on the ISO and Shutter Speed top dial?
Nikon's implementation of Auto ISO is also really strange to me, perhaps because it's just new to me, but I think also because it's just strange on its face. Moving the PASM switch to say Aperture priority then turning the ISO dial to "C" doesn't work like it does on a Fujifilm camera – Auto ISO is completely independent of the "C" setting. If Auto ISO is enabled, it works across both C and all manual ISO selections on the top dial – the catch being that a manually selected ISO with Auto ISO enabled sets the minimum ISO, which can climb automatically as needed based on the minimum shutter speed setting you have selected in the Auto ISO settings. That setting can be Auto minimum shutter (too aggressive in my opinion as it's setting the 40 f/2 lens to 1/50th as a minimum, and I can easily shoot that at 1/8 sec. with the Zf's 8 stops of IBIS). The workaround is to set the minimum shutter speed to an extremely long shutter speed that you won't normally need – then the ISO stays where you set it. The way I would expect the top ISO dial to work is a manual ISO setting is absolute, and Auto ISO if turned on only works when the dial is changed to "C".
p.5 #5 · The Leica M11-P is expected to be released by November 2023
highdesertmesa wrote:
My Zf arrived yesterday, and it is a great camera. My only complaint is a familiar one, which is why in the world did they combine PASM with manual dials instead of just putting an AUTO setting on the ISO and Shutter Speed top dial?
Probably because not all of the lenses have an aperture dial or an auto switch on them. With the normal Z lenses you wouldn't be able to select shutter priority or full Program.
Sure there are ways around this (a switch on the camera body) but that's my guess.
Have you tried a non coupled lens yet? I notice Bobby Tonelli did with his Noct and seemed to have no issues with manual eye focus.
p.5 #6 · The Leica M11-P is expected to be released by November 2023
flash wrote:
Probably because not all of the lenses have an aperture dial or an auto switch on them. With the normal Z lenses you wouldn't be able to select shutter priority or full Program.
Sure there are ways around this (a switch on the camera body) but that's my guess.
Have you tried a non coupled lens yet? I notice Bobby Tonelli did with his Noct and seemed to have no issues with manual eye focus.
Gordon
I have a $36 TTArtisan M to Z adapter arriving Wednesday. I didn't want to commit to the $309 Voigtlander macro adapter until I see if I like how MF lenses work on the ZF. Hoping that the EVF resolution is sufficient. I'm looking forward to the day when a 5 million dot EVF is the expected base resolution for a prosumer digital camera.
p.5 #7 · The Leica M11-P is expected to be released by November 2023
highdesertmesa wrote:
I have a $36 TTArtisan M to Z adapter arriving Wednesday. I didn't want to commit to the $309 Voigtlander macro adapter until I see if I like how MF lenses work on the ZF. Hoping that the EVF resolution is sufficient. I'm looking forward to the day when a 5 million dot EVF is the expected base resolution for a prosumer digital camera.
The Voigt macro adapter is quite large and heavy, especially because the Z mount is bigger than usual. Did you try the focus features for manual focusing?
p.5 #8 · The Leica M11-P is expected to be released by November 2023
Fred Miranda wrote:
The Voigt macro adapter is quite large and heavy, especially because the Z mount is bigger than usual. Did you try the focus features for manual focusing?
Thanks for the heads up. If the TTA adapter works well, I might just stick with that. I currently only have two M lenses, the LLL 50 SPII and 35 Lux FLE II. If I add more manual focus lenses, they will probably be the Voigtlander native Z mounts where possible. The 35 Lux FLE II already has close focus anyway.
I've so far only tried out manual focusing with the 40 f/2 SE kit lens. I assigned the AF/AE Lock button to be 200% zoom in the custom menu for shooting controls. This is a very fast way to zoom in, focus and bounce back out. My thumb can stay planted on that button without having to "find" anything for zooming. Otherwise the two buttons on the rear for zooming are too clumsy for manual focus. "Zoom in" is one button, "zoom out" is another, and they zoom in increments and can't be set to zoom straight to 200% and bypass the intermediate zoom levels. I can hold each button to step quickly to maximum zoom, but it's still too long of a pause. Half press of the shutter button does not reset the zoom like it does with the Leica SL cameras, so being able to bounce from the full image to 200% and back with a single button is a must. The Zf doesn't have an auto zoom feature when manually focusing even with their own native Z AF lenses it seems.
Resolution at 200% zoom seems adequate for manual focusing even in low light. I think the new processor has improved the quality of the feed at full zoom over the Z6 if the comments (complaints) I've read about the Z6 EVF resolution adequacy for manual focusing are true.
I think this setup I have with 200% zoom assigned to AF/AE lock button is going to work out well. I'll know on Wednesday when the TTA adapter arrives for me to test my M lenses.
p.5 #10 · The Leica M11-P is expected to be released by November 2023
algrove wrote:
Fingers crossed Leica sees the light with the SL system.
Good time to remind about the "Feature Request" function on the Leica Fotos app 😉If enough of us submit a feature request for something similar e.g., MF /Focus Peaking Eye Recognition guide on for the SL2/ SL2-S, we might get lucky.
p.5 #11 · The Leica M11-P is expected to be released by November 2023
LBJ2 wrote:
I hope Cosina/Voigtländer is prepared. I think the Nikon Df is going to sell a lot of Voigtländer Z-mount lenses 😎
*Description of Zf focus peaking performance compared to Leica SL2 /Hasselblad X2d @ about 6:55 in the video.
Hopefully Voigtlander will make a few full frame Z-mount lenses with the AIS design aesthetic – like the lenses they offer for F-mount.
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LBJ2 wrote:
Good time to remind about the "Feature Request" function on the Leica Fotos app 😉If enough of us submit a feature request for something similar e.g., MF /Focus Peaking Eye Recognition guide on for the SL2/ SL2-S, we might get lucky.
With the SL3 so close, maybe we could see it added there then retroactively added to the SL2/SL2-S. The AF tracking doesn't have to be super accurate for this to be useful – even the box over the face is enough.
p.5 #12 · The Leica M11-P is expected to be released by November 2023
Now that the camera meters and operates directly off the sensor, I see no technical reason that Leica couldn't offer Eye/face/subject Focus Confirmation boxes in the M11 when using the rear LCD or EVF. Of course this wouldn't be available when using the Range Finder. So, this shouldn't be an issue for the purists. It is not much different than the existing aids like Focus peaking available now.
p.5 #13 · The Leica M11-P is expected to be released by November 2023
1bwana1 wrote:
Now that the camera meters and operates directly off the sensor, I see no technical reason that Leica couldn't offer Eye/face/subject Focus Confirmation boxes in the M11 when using the rear LCD or EVF. Of course this wouldn't be available when using the Range Finder. So, this shouldn't be an issue for the purists. It is not much different than the existing aids like Focus peaking available now.
Leica should definitely be aware of these possibilities by now. It would certainly be an attractive feature for a new M camera with only an EVF. They should consider adding this feature in a future phase-detect SL3 model.
"The Leica M11-P camera is rumored to be announced by the end of October with a price tag of €9,290 (around $9,800 – please note that US prices are usually lower).
I am not sure what upgrades the M11-P will offer, but we can expect 256GB internal memory like the Leica M11M, no red dot, and Leica engraving on top. Shipping is expected to start in November.
The next LFI magazine was already delayed until October 30th because of a “postponed product launch” and an “extended embargo”
p.5 #15 · The Leica M11-P is expected to be released by November 2023
Fred Miranda wrote:
Leica should definitely be aware of these possibilities by now. It would certainly be an attractive feature for a new M camera with only an EVF. They should consider adding this feature in a future phase-detect SL3 model.
I would love for subject/eye-detect to be in all M cameras even non-EVF because it would work for the LCD or Visoflex 2. But Leica would have to be willing to put a very powerful processor in the M camera, something usually reserved for larger bodies that can more easily dissipate heat. The Lumix S5 II and II X have this, but they are also vented with a fan for cooling. The Nikon Zf is probably the closest kin to the M having a small-ish metal body with the latest high-performing processor, but I suspect the M would be even more difficult to keep cooled.
p.5 #16 · The Leica M11-P is expected to be released by November 2023
highdesertmesa wrote:
I would love for subject/eye-detect to be in all M cameras even non-EVF because it would work for the LCD or Visoflex 2. But Leica would have to be willing to put a very powerful processor in the M camera, something usually reserved for larger bodies that can more easily dissipate heat. The Lumix S5 II and II X have this, but they are also vented with a fan for cooling. The Nikon Zf is probably the closest kin to the M having a small-ish metal body with the latest high-performing processor, but I suspect the M would be even more difficult to keep cooled....Show more →
I am not so sure about that. There are some pretty small bodied Full FRame cameras by Sony and others that have advanced AF features in them. I think video is a far grenerater heat generator than than things Like Eye Focus detection.
p.5 #17 · The Leica M11-P is expected to be released by November 2023
1bwana1 wrote:
I am not so sure about that. There are some pretty small bodied Full FRame cameras by Sony and others that have advanced AF features in them. I think video is a far grenerater heat generator than than things Like Eye Focus detection.
True, and it would depend on how efficient the next Leica M (Panasonic-made?) processor would be. Sony and Leica may share sensors but not processor tech as far as I know.
p.5 #18 · The Leica M11-P is expected to be released by November 2023
highdesertmesa wrote:
I would love for subject/eye-detect to be in all M cameras even non-EVF because it would work for the LCD or Visoflex 2. But Leica would have to be willing to put a very powerful processor in the M camera, something usually reserved for larger bodies that can more easily dissipate heat. The Lumix S5 II and II X have this, but they are also vented with a fan for cooling. The Nikon Zf is probably the closest kin to the M having a small-ish metal body with the latest high-performing processor, but I suspect the M would be even more difficult to keep cooled....Show more →
No matter if this technology would or wouldn't work in a M body, Leica will not provide all these features at once anyway. First we might see an "EVF M" where the rangefinder is replaced by the EVF. If we are very lucky, we might see IBIS in such body, but I doubt it. I can see the M12 earliest coming out with a M11 rangefinder-based successor removing issues known with the M11 and then in parallel the "EVF M" most likely without IBIS.
p.5 #19 · The Leica M11-P is expected to be released by November 2023
retrofocus wrote:
No matter if this technology would or wouldn't work in a M body, Leica will not provide all these features at once anyway. First we might see an "EVF M" where the rangefinder is replaced by the EVF. If we are very lucky, we might see IBIS in such body, but I doubt it. I can see the M12 earliest coming out with a M11 rangefinder-based successor removing issues known with the M11 and then in parallel the "EVF M" most likely without IBIS.
Makes sense. I still think we'll never see IBIS in the M because just look at how deep the M mount flange distance is. If you compare it to cameras like the Nikon Z which has a very short flange distance, the Z bodies still end up being pretty thick due to IBIS. The smallest full frame Z, the Zf – when I put it next to the M11M, it becomes obvious the M would have to be much thicker, perhaps 50% thicker to accommodate the same IBIS mech.
p.5 #20 · The Leica M11-P is expected to be released by November 2023
highdesertmesa wrote:
Makes sense. I still think we'll never see IBIS in the M because just look at how deep the M mount flange distance is. If you compare it to cameras like the Nikon Z which has a very short flange distance, the Z bodies still end up being pretty thick due to IBIS. The smallest full frame Z, the Zf – when I put it next to the M11M, it becomes obvious the M would have to be much thicker, perhaps 50% thicker to accommodate the same IBIS mech.
Yes, this issue was often mentioned in recent past. I still don't buy it - I remember just about 10 years ago many voices (and experts) said that > 60 MP on a full-frame sensor can't be done. Simply that technology improves and things get smaller. I predict the same to happen with IBIS. With Leica M maybe not in the next 2-3 years, but then I am quite sure it will be there in the same body size as currently used in M10/M11 cameras.
??