p.23 #1 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
chez wrote:
Isn’t that exactly what is being said. The A7r5, a9 and a1 are all cameras focused on still shooters. Where’s the beef adding a ‘rangefinder” style camera to the options for Sony stills shooters. Surely there is a camera Sony makes that you can use… no?
No not yet. There still is not a compact range finder option in any brand that cuts it. I have an RV and love it. But I don't want it as an everyday carry. Flip screens are undesirable to many stills shooters. In the group of people I shoot with I know of 6 people that were interested in the CR when rumors first came out. 4 of the 6 are not even Sony shooters. Only one is going to give it a try. Yup, small sample size for sure. Meaningless even as I'm sure many will comment. But for another 3 bucks and no R&D Sony could have covered both groups needs. The simple fact is Sony made a business decision that will cost them some sales. I'm sure they don't care. Just like they "didn't care about A1 users"' I mean many of us listened to A1 users whine about no upgrades and didn't say anything. You know why? Because we don't have an A1 and don't care. But we understand the frustration. I'm glad for the people that don't mind the flip screen. Honestly Happy for you. But if people have the right to complement Sony and call it perfect for their needs. Me and others equally have the right to say it falls short (in whatever that area is) for ourselves without having to be called out as "hater" or being told to just use something else. There isn't "a something else" at this point.
p.23 #2 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
I did a hands-on trial of A7CII and A7CR today at Sony Showroom at Ginza / Tokyo and confirmed that there is no EFCS submenu in Shutter settings menu on A7CR nor on A7CII. A6700 has 6 items in that submenu, including EFCS setting, and A7CR and A7CII have 5, missing only the EFCS setting. Quick photos showing that menu in each camera with Japanese UI as Sony's Japanese camera models have only Japanese UI option: https://photos.app.goo.gl/6wzKXVyuLoYZQFqf6
A6700 photo shows the focus on the EFCS menu which is missing on the 2 other models.
p.23 #3 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
chez wrote:
Isn’t that exactly what is being said. The A7r5, a9 and a1 are all cameras focused on still shooters. Where’s the beef adding a ‘rangefinder” style camera to the options for Sony stills shooters. Surely there is a camera Sony makes that you can use… no?
Nah man, the a7c was a success despite being so flawed and such a poor design. Sony is drunk and doesn’t understand what customers want - people want a super fat 700g a7c with everything from the a7rV - the shutter, the viewfinder, the bulky display mechanism and so on. Of course it’ll be an inch thicker in order to stuff everything inside so it can’t be part of the C line, it’ll have to be a a7rR, the extra r for rangefinder. And they don’t want to pay $3900 for it, because it’s just a parts bin camera that should be cheaper. Sarcasm of course.
p.23 #4 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
Juha Kannisto wrote:
I did a hands-on trial of A7CII and A7CR today at Sony Showroom at Ginza[...]
Thank you.
Any other impressions? I'm curious about how the buttons feels, the feeling turning the front wheel and the, possible, viewfinder improvement.
p.23 #5 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
j4nu wrote:
I agree - it is overblown, as it really depends on your shooting habits, e.g. if you like wide-open portraits in full sun on the beach then you can most likely use electronic shutter (given you can convince your models to be still ).
Hear me out though, A7C series is widely regarded as a travel cam. When I travel, it's often to sunny places but with A7C and a fast lens I can only stop down to shoot my kids running around on the beach or splashing in the water. Otherwise I'd need to wade through a number of shots with either distorted limbs or degraded bokeh hoping I can find a few keepers. It's not the end of the world, but it's just a crappy situation to be in with a new cam released in 2023 (and the new sensors are even slower than the one in the original A7C)... ...Show more →
I've just taken two beach holidays with my A7C and a lunatic toddler, shot exclusively with electronic shutter, and I don't think I had a single shot with movement distortion - if he really gets the zoomies or splashing around in the sea I put it into continuous mode to capture more shots and speed up the readout and lower the distortion anyway. I always prefer to shoot family and street with ES to intrude less into the scene. I shot two motorsport events recently with mechanical (EFCS obviously) and I scanned through yesterday out of interest and couldn't see any cut bokeh even at high shutter speeds, although I mostly used an f1.4 indoors and a telephoto zoom outdoors. I'm aware of the limitations of EFCS and I love shooting wide open with lots of creamy bokeh, but EFCS has never bothered me enough to override the extra noise/shutter shock of full mechanical.
I would have thought the situations where you're photographing a) outdoors, b) wide open with a wide aperture lens, c) with mechanical EFCS, d) with significant bokeh balls, and e) in a situation where it would really bother you if there was the odd bit of cut bokeh, is really pretty limited. And if you regularly find yourself in those situations, then this obviously isn't the camera for you. This camera isn't meant for you, move on to one of the many bodies that is meant for you (that's a general comment not for you j4nu!). It's obviously not meant for 'professional' use (which is a crappy term anyway - lots of 'amateur' photographers/photography has a greater artistic merit than 'professional').
p.23 #6 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
nhsonyshooter wrote:
But for another 3 bucks and no R&D Sony could have covered both groups needs.
You keep repeating that baseless comment. The '4d' screen for the A7RV is much higher resolution/quality, it's larger and it has a much more complex mechanical implementation. It's almost certainly considerably more expensive, and much harder to shoehorn into a compact, (relatively) budget camera. Otherwise they likely would have, at least for the A7CR.
nhsonyshooter wrote:
The simple fact is Sony made a business decision that will cost them some sales. I'm sure they don't care.
Everyone said that about the A7C, but it was a huge success for Sony. Not only just for sales, but to introduce a different category of consumer to Sony Alpha MILC ecosystem.
p.23 #7 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
Jonas B wrote:
Thank you.
Any other impressions? I'm curious about how the buttons feels, the feeling turning the front wheel and the, possible, viewfinder improvement.
It felt pretty similar in use to my A7C overall. The slightly bigger grip did feel better in hand although I've not had any problems with the grip on the original A7C either. The larger magnification on EVF seems like a clear improvement and I liked that pretty much. I felt like the front wheel wasn't naturally under any of my fingers while shooting and I had to sort of search for it when I tried to use it. I haven't really missed having another control wheel though as most of the lenses I use on my A7C have a dedicated aperture ring. One thing I like better on the original A7C is the Power On/Off switch, it feels very natural on the original but it may take time to get used to the different On/Off positions on the new cameras.
Shutter button and all the other buttons felt good, can't say if they are better than on the original without more use though. I also tried focus peaking and magnified view with manual focusing and those felt pretty similar to original A7C, where I've been happy how they work already.
I also tried the additional grip on the A7CR. I'm not planning to buy one for my pre-ordered A7CII though as I don't plan to use big lenses on it I have no need for additional grip. It felt OK but there was a little bit of play where the grip didn't feel like a perfectly fixed/stable extension of the body.
Overall both cameras felt good in use and I'm waiting to receive my A7CII on release day.
p.23 #8 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
newdom wrote:
I've just taken two beach holidays with my A7C and a lunatic toddler, shot exclusively with electronic shutter, and I don't think I had a single shot with movement distortion - if he really gets the zoomies or splashing around in the sea I put it into continuous mode to capture more shots and speed up the readout and lower the distortion anyway. I always prefer to shoot family and street with ES to intrude less into the scene. I shot two motorsport events recently with mechanical (EFCS obviously) and I scanned through yesterday out of interest and couldn't see any cut bokeh even at high shutter speeds, although I mostly used an f1.4 indoors and a telephoto zoom outdoors. I'm aware of the limitations of EFCS and I love shooting wide open with lots of creamy bokeh, but EFCS has never bothered me enough to override the extra noise/shutter shock of full mechanical.
I would have thought the situations where you're photographing a) outdoors, b) wide open with a wide aperture lens, c) with mechanical EFCS, d) with significant bokeh balls, and e) in a situation where it would really bother you if there was the odd bit of cut bokeh, is really pretty limited. And if you regularly find yourself in those situations, then this obviously isn't the camera for you. This camera isn't meant for you, move on to one of the many bodies that is meant for you (that's a general comment not for you j4nu!). It's obviously not meant for 'professional' use (which is a crappy term anyway - lots of 'amateur' photographers/photography has a greater artistic merit than 'professional').
Boy did you nail my experiences and thoughts exactly. I owned two A7C cameras, used them a lot for travel, outdoor street shooting and with children and at family gatherings. There was never a problem with bokeh or motion distortion. Sony doesn't seem to worry much about bokeh with EFCS either, since they put it in the A1. (Yes, I know, the A1 has a 1/240th second sensor read-out that deals with rolling shutter and most LED banding--but the faster readout has no influence on theoretical bokeh issues).
p.23 #9 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
newdom wrote:
It's obviously not meant for 'professional' use (which is a crappy term anyway - lots of 'amateur' photographers/photography has a greater artistic merit than 'professional).
I'm very tired of the meaningless use of "pro use", "us pros", not for pros" and similar.
In this forum we discuss cameras and lenses more than anything else. That's basic stuff and I see pros and amateurs use all sorts of equipment as they are using what they need according to their field of interest.
p.23 #10 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
Juha Kannisto wrote:
It felt pretty similar in use to my A7C overall. The slightly bigger grip did feel better [...]
I also tried the additional grip on the A7CR. I'm not planning to buy one for my pre-ordered A7CII though as I don't plan to use big lenses on it I have no need for additional grip. It felt OK but there was a little bit of play where the grip didn't feel like a perfectly fixed/stable extension of the body.
Overall both cameras felt good in use and I'm waiting to receive my A7CII on release day.
Thanks again! That's pretty much as expected.
The front wheel... I guess we'll get used to it. I have an A7CR on pre-order and hope I can sell the extra grip to somebody. As soon as there is a good Arca-Swiss compatible L-plate (Smallrig?) available I'll but one.
p.23 #11 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
newdom wrote:
You keep repeating that baseless comment. The '4d' screen for the A7RV is much higher resolution/quality, it's larger and it has a much more complex mechanical implementation. It's almost certainly considerably more expensive, and much harder to shoehorn into a compact, (relatively) budget camera. Otherwise they likely would have, at least for the A7CR.
Everyone said that about the A7C, but it was a huge success for Sony. Not only just for sales, but to introduce a different category of consumer to Sony Alpha MILC ecosystem.
It’s very obvious the A7c was a success…Sony just released two more cameras just like it. Sony is a master at consumer electronics and knows their customer meds very well. I believe these two cameras with industry leading AF will be even a bigger success that the previous model.
p.23 #12 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
newdom wrote:
I've just taken two beach holidays with my A7C and a lunatic toddler, shot exclusively with electronic shutter, and I don't think I had a single shot with movement distortion - if he really gets the zoomies or splashing around in the sea I put it into continuous mode to capture more shots and speed up the readout and lower the distortion anyway. I always prefer to shoot family and street with ES to intrude less into the scene. I shot two motorsport events recently with mechanical (EFCS obviously) and I scanned through yesterday out of interest and couldn't see any cut bokeh even at high shutter speeds, although I mostly used an f1.4 indoors and a telephoto zoom outdoors. I'm aware of the limitations of EFCS and I love shooting wide open with lots of creamy bokeh, but EFCS has never bothered me enough to override the extra noise/shutter shock of full mechanical.
I would have thought the situations where you're photographing a) outdoors, b) wide open with a wide aperture lens, c) with mechanical EFCS, d) with significant bokeh balls, and e) in a situation where it would really bother you if there was the odd bit of cut bokeh, is really pretty limited. And if you regularly find yourself in those situations, then this obviously isn't the camera for you. This camera isn't meant for you, move on to one of the many bodies that is meant for you (that's a general comment not for you j4nu!). It's obviously not meant for 'professional' use (which is a crappy term anyway - lots of 'amateur' photographers/photography has a greater artistic merit than 'professional').
And that's all that matters in the end -> you're happy with your pictures .
I had ES movement distortion with my kids on A7III sporadically, so in my case it could happen but it wasn't frequent as I rarely shot them zooming one way or the other . EFCS bokeh is not only about visible half-circles, but also those tiny half-circles that constitue the blur and in effect make it more busy. Anyways, I won't drag this topic anymore since it's highly personal if you like (or even notice) or not that kind of bokeh (there are people posting pictures with it visible and they still get a lot of likes here ). I've actually spent a few days recently shooting 35mm & 50mm @ 1.2 and 135 @ 1.8 to see if and how I can trigger the effect and for me it's certainly still there, but as you say it requires specific conditions to be really noticeable.
I actually was interested in downsizing to A7C II or R (as my only camera) and these news about shutter cast some doubt, but it's good to hear there are ways to minimize it (like you suggested dropping to 12bit: https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00229990 )
p.23 #13 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
chiron wrote:
Boy did you nail my experiences and thoughts exactly. I owned two A7C cameras, used them a lot for travel, outdoor street shooting and with children and at family gatherings. There was never a problem with bokeh or motion distortion. Sony doesn't seem to worry much about bokeh with EFCS either, since they put it in the A1. (Yes, I know, the A1 has a 1/240th second sensor read-out that deals with rolling shutter and most LED banding--but the faster readout has no influence on theoretical bokeh issues).
Not to bee too picky but Sony does mention the EFCS influence on bokeh: https://helpguide.sony.net/ilc/2230/v1/en/contents/TP0002887782.html
When you shoot at high shutter speeds with a large-aperture lens attached, out-of-focus circle produced by the bokeh effect may get cut off because of the shutter mechanism. If this happens, set [e-Front Curtain Shut.] to [Off].
On A1, EFCS is mostly for faster flash sync I think, as fully electronic shutter is fast enough for the most part .
I can post a dozen of pictures from A1 from my recent "testing" if you want, but I don't want to be forever known as the EFCS bokeh guy here ...
p.23 #14 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
j4nu wrote:
And that's all that matters in the end -> you're happy with your pictures .
I had ES movement distortion with my kids on A7III sporadically, so in my case it could happen but it wasn't frequent as I rarely shot them zooming one way or the other . EFCS bokeh is not only about visible half-circles, but also those tiny half-circles that constitue the blur and in effect make it more busy. Anyways, I won't drag this topic anymore since it's highly personal if you like (or even notice) or not that kind of bokeh (there are people posting pictures with it visible and they still get a lot of likes here ). I've actually spent a few days recently shooting 35mm & 50mm @ 1.2 and 135 @ 1.8 to see if and how I can trigger the effect and for me it's certainly still there, but as you say it requires specific conditions to be really noticeable.
I actually was interested in downsizing to A7C II or R (as my only camera) and these news about shutter cast some doubt, but it's good to hear there are ways to minimize it (like you suggested dropping to 12bit: https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00229990 )...Show more →
Wow I had no idea that my a9 was dropping down to 12bit when shooting in continuous mode. I generally leave it on the slowest setting because it's easy to just take 1 photo but can continue if needed. The a9ii seems to keep 14bit interestingly, low key upgrade I didn't know about.
Definitely a nice strategy to get more useful ES and might be a reason to lean towards A7Cii over the R for some. It does seem silly though that Sony doesn't have faster sensors, don't the basic canon r5/6 have like 1/60 readout? A bit more speed here would make all this efcs debate moot.
p.23 #15 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
j4nu wrote:
[...]
I can post a dozen of pictures from A1 from my recent "testing" if you want, but I don't want to be forever known as the EFCS bokeh guy here ...
Too late for that I'm afraid. 😀
p.23 #16 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
Jonas B wrote:
I'm very tired of the meaningless use of "pro use", "us pros", not for pros" and similar.
In this forum we discuss cameras and lenses more than anything else. That's basic stuff and I see pros and amateurs use all sorts of equipment as they are using what they need according to their field of interest.
Wow, great comment! As Thom Hogan has pointed out, Galen Rowell used “consumer” cameras to capture some of his most iconic images because they were smaller and lighter for back country use. My guess is if Galen was around today, he’d be using an A7CR and be thrilled to have it.
On A1, EFCS is mostly for faster flash sync I think, as fully electronic shutter is fast enough for the most part .
I can post a dozen of pictures from A1 from my recent "testing" if you want, but I don't want to be forever known as the EFCS bokeh guy here ...
Yes, you are in danger of getting that reputation! I would point out that the pictures you showed are still test pictures rather than real, authentically taken photographs. The only "real" photograph that I have seen that shows this effect is one that was posted precisely because the photographer so loved the look of the bokeh and the lens's rendering in the photograph! Sony does mention the possible effect on bokeh with EFCS when combined with both very high shutter speeds and very large apertures, but they still chose to put EFCS in the A1. So, they weren't concerned about it as a real factor.
It just doesn't seem like it is much of a problem except in fringe circumstances, and there are major gains from an EFCS setting (if full ES can't be used for some reason, like stadium scoreboard LEDs) in terms of eliminating shutter shock, reducing shutter lag, and actually being able to see the moment of exposure. These benefits take place every time the shutter is released with EFCS.
I'll take those constant benefits of EFCS anytime over the rare and almost entirely theoretical problem of EFCS bokeh.
p.23 #18 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
So I have now sold both my A7C and A7IV but still own my A7RV and A1. Also trying out an A6700.
Even with the EFCS limitation of the A7CR/A7C II I am considering buying one of the two and actually pre-ordered both but need to make up my mind. For me personally full frame tilts the scale more of an A7Cxx variant than does the two curtain shutter of the A6700 given that I sill own cameras with it still.
I'm not a videographer so these differences don't count for me except in how resale value is impacted.
I've been looking at sensor scan speed, which is difficult info to find, not to look at video rolling shutter, but to see how fast they may distort a moving object in a still shot. What I've seen is so far is...
A7RV:
"The a7R V shows sharper results in its 4K30 Super35 mode. This crops the sensor down to match up with an APS-C sensor width (1.52x), and samples down from around 6K for great-looking results. However, readout speed is still pretty slow (31ms), so you may see rubbery motion effects in your footage." - but I think this is for APS-C Only so I'm thinking it is about 1.5X longer or ~46.5 ms but could be longer.
A7IV:
"What is the read out speed of the sensor on the Sony a7iv?
14-bit readout of the whole sensor for stills takes around 1/15 sec (~66ms), which is around seventeen times longer than the super-fast a1 takes to read out its sensor. This means silent shutter mode is likely to result in significant distortion with moving subjects."
Anyone have any real data here to understand the scan rate differences between the A7R and A7IV?
Don't know if it effects my decision on A7CII or A7CR.
Also, even though I loved all my R cameras high megapixel sensors I still think that 33 Mpixels is enough so saving some money might influence my decision. I only sold my A7IV because I new the A7C II was a possible replacement.
p.23 #19 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
One other follow up comment that applies to me and maybe to others. When I use lenses for portraits, where I want bokeh, that are 50 or 85mm I may use a f/1.2 or f1.4 but I do this on my bigger cameras that have full two curtain mechanical shutter. My smaller cameras that I had like the A7C I often shot at 50/2 or at f/2.8 to get more depth of field because I was grabbing the shot more quickly and wanted the subject to be in focus.
Admit now with the better AF with AI I might try to widen up the aperture but not sure. We will see. Also Im a big fan of using my 135/1.8 GM for portraits and don't now if its smaller f/1.8 aperture is as subject to EFCS effects.
On my A6700, were Im trying out the Viltrox 75/1.2 there is at least a two curtain mechanical shutter so we will see how that goes.
p.23 #20 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
chiron wrote:
Yes, you are in danger of getting that reputation! I would point out that the pictures you showed are still test pictures rather than real, authentically taken photographs. The only "real" photograph that I have seen that shows this effect is one that was posted precisely because the photographer so loved the look of the bokeh and the lens's rendering in the photograph! Sony does mention the possible effect on bokeh with EFCS when combined with both very high shutter speeds and very large apertures, but they still chose to put EFCS in the A1. So, they weren't concerned about it as a real factor.
It just doesn't seem like it is much of a problem except in fringe circumstances, and there are major gains from an EFCS setting (if full ES can't be used for some reason, like stadium scoreboard LEDs) in terms of eliminating shutter shock, reducing shutter lag, and actually being able to see the moment of exposure. These benefits take place every time the shutter is released with EFCS.
I'll take those constant benefits of EFCS anytime over the rare and almost entirely theoretical problem of EFCS bokeh.
As for A1 and EFCS, I think Sony did it to offer 1/400s (1/500s in aps-c) flash sync. EFCS is not an issue bokeh-wise on A1 because you can use fully electronic shutter nearly(?) all the time. On A7RV, you can fall back to fully mechanical shutter instead. BTW, I don't think there is any visible shutter shock at affected shutter speeds.
And one last thing, the reason I notice EFCS so much is probably because I've run into it in my early days with A7III. I just couldn't understand at that time why my photos with 35/1.4 looked so busy compared to what I saw online. If I knew how to search the archives, I would find my post about it here .
).
but with A7C and a fast lens I can only stop down to shoot my kids running around on the beach or splashing in the water. Otherwise I'd need to wade through a number