p.24 #1 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
swldstn wrote:
One other follow up comment that applies to me and maybe to others. When I use lenses for portraits, where I want bokeh, that are 50 or 85mm I may use a f/1.2 or f1.4 but I do this on my bigger cameras that have full two curtain mechanical shutter. My smaller cameras that I had like the A7C I often shot at 50/2 or at f/2.8 to get more depth of field because I was grabbing the shot more quickly and wanted the subject to be in focus.
Admit now with the better AF with AI I might try to widen up the aperture but not sure. We will see. Also Im a big fan of using my 135/1.8 GM for portraits and don't now if its smaller f/1.8 aperture is as subject to EFCS effects.
On my A6700, were Im trying out the Viltrox 75/1.2 there is at least a two curtain mechanical shutter so we will see how that goes....Show more →
I did some "investigation" recently and for some reason the effect was more visible on photos taken with 35mm and 50mm @ 1.2 rather than 135mm @ 1.8. Maybe I missed something in my shooting though...
p.24 #4 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
Everyone has been fighting this problem issue but i hit it often when testing lenses as well. We need an automated switch to kick in at certain shutter speeds. It’s ugly as hell but at this point im not going to argue about it.
p.24 #5 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
EVIL_guy wrote:
Mabe you, as a single person.
The real world thinks different ...
Heck i love Leica rangefinders but my issue was i ran into too many limitations with them shooting real gigs for clients like i had with Medium Format . So i moved back to 35mm bodies. But thats more for Pro work with different scenarios. Im not going to get into all that right now.
Seriously i was thinking for me personally about going back to Leica for travel stuff.
p.24 #6 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
GMPhotography wrote:
Everyone has been fighting this problem issue but i hit it often when testing lenses as well. We need an automated switch to kick in at certain shutter speeds. It’s ugly as hell but at this point im not going to argue about it.
Any chance Sony will adopt the Fuji X camera approach with managing Mechanical, EFCS, and Electronic shutter type selection based on shutter speed selected manually or by auto shutter speed when set in AP mode? I really liked that approach.
p.24 #8 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
swldstn wrote:
So I have now sold both my A7C and A7IV but still own my A7RV and A1. Also trying out an A6700. I only sold my A7IV because I new the A7C II was a possible replacement.
[...]
Thanks for your time.
I have followed your earlier posts on this.
As I understand it you are intended to use the A7C(x) as a camera travel? If so I think the A7CR is the best option. The A7Cii is overpriced and will give you pixel envy and less cropping capabilities. With the R version you can take one body only and do whatever you want out of the lenses you brought by cropping using a body not much larger than the A6700.
I have traveled Europe for two summers using the A7C with the PZ 16-35/4 and the Samyang 75/1.8. At some times I wish i could have cropped the images a bit further and still print big, or medium big. With the A7CR I expect to get a great and light weight setup easy to bring wherever in a satchel bag (I use an old canvas Domke junior satchel something) together with everything else I need for a day out.
p.24 #9 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
Jonas B wrote:
I have followed your earlier posts on this.
As I understand it you are intended to use the A7C(x) as a camera travel? If so I think the A7CR is the best option. The A7Cii is overpriced and will give you pixel envy and less cropping capabilities. With the R version you can take one body only and do whatever you want out of the lenses you brought by cropping using a body not much larger than the A6700.
I have traveled Europe for two summers using the A7C with the PZ 16-35/4 and the Samyang 75/1.8. At some times I wish i could have cropped the images a bit further and still print big, or medium big. With the A7CR I expect to get a great and light weight setup easy to bring wherever in a satchel bag (I use an old canvas Domke junior satchel something) together with everything else I need for a day out.
I’m slowly coming to that same conclusion that the cropability and higher resolution and APS-C mode bring a lot of value. Haven’t tried it with my A7RV yet but think the new noise processing software options will make up for the potential lower noise performance of the A7CII. I did already pre-order it and the A7C II but might just leave in both preorders in case they get over booked on the A7CR. It got ordered by me 5 min later than the A7C II .
p.24 #10 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
..
Heck i love Leica rangefinders but my issue was i ran into too many limitations with them shooting real gigs for clients like i had with Medium Format ...
Yes, I understood, but you generalized it as if it applies to all stills photographers. And that is definitely not the case!
p.24 #13 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
EVIL_guy wrote:
Mabe you, as a single person.
The real world thinks different ...
Look up sarcasm? I have been asking for a FF sensor in an Apac body way before the A7c was even a rumor.
Sep 10, 2023 at 08:02 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.24 #14 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
chiron wrote:
Yes, you are in danger of getting that reputation! I would point out that the pictures you showed are still test pictures rather than real, authentically taken photographs. The only "real" photograph that I have seen that shows this effect is one that was posted precisely because the photographer so loved the look of the bokeh and the lens's rendering in the photograph! Sony does mention the possible effect on bokeh with EFCS when combined with both very high shutter speeds and very large apertures, but they still chose to put EFCS in the A1. So, they weren't concerned about it as a real factor.
It just doesn't seem like it is much of a problem except in fringe circumstances, and there are major gains from an EFCS setting (if full ES can't be used for some reason, like stadium scoreboard LEDs) in terms of eliminating shutter shock, reducing shutter lag, and actually being able to see the moment of exposure. These benefits take place every time the shutter is released with EFCS.
I'll take those constant benefits of EFCS anytime over the rare and almost entirely theoretical problem of EFCS bokeh.
I just wanted to jump in and say the EFCS issue is not just theoretical. You get it when shooting fast shutter speeds with wide apertures. Back when I had an A7r II, a camera in which you had to switch between EFCS and full manual, I got the effect worsening the bokeh in a number of real world shots. It wasn't a big deal with that camera as you could switch to full manual but in brighter light with a wide open f/1.2 or f/1.4 aperture and shutter speeds faster than 1/1000 or 1/2000 you could definitely see it. It was enough that I tried to remember to switch EFCS to Manual in such situations and I forgot to switch enough at the beginning that I have a number of times when I switched half way through and bokeh was clearly better when I switched to full manual. So, it is not a problem that happens a lot (you get it with fast shutter speeds and wide apertures), but it is not entirely an theoretical problem either.
Sep 10, 2023 at 10:29 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.24 #15 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
cxpics wrote:
Wow I had no idea that my a9 was dropping down to 12bit when shooting in continuous mode. I generally leave it on the slowest setting because it's easy to just take 1 photo but can continue if needed. The a9ii seems to keep 14bit interestingly, low key upgrade I didn't know about.
Definitely a nice strategy to get more useful ES and might be a reason to lean towards A7Cii over the R for some. It does seem silly though that Sony doesn't have faster sensors, don't the basic canon r5/6 have like 1/60 readout? A bit more speed here would make all this efcs debate moot. ...Show more →
Sony does have cameras with faster sensor scan speeds, and much faster sensor scan speeds. At the R6 megapixels they have the A9 and A9II that are roughly three times faster than the R6, and at the R5 megapixels they of course have the A1 which is four times faster than the R5. With these cameras full mechanical shutter is a great option to avoid any concerns with bokeh deterioration from EFCS in the rare circumstances it is a problem (wide apertures and fast shutter speeds).
That said Sony also has some cameras with slower sensor scan speeds like the new A7C II and A7Cr. From my perspective if you buy these cameras you just need to be aware of the issue, know when it happens, and take counter measures, which are not the end of the world. You just need to keep the shutter speed low enough if you use EFCS and even at wide apertures it won't be a problem. You can of course lower the shutter speed by lowering the ISO if it will work in that setting, by stopping down the lens if it will work in that setting, or if neither of the other two work by adding an ND filter. There is also the option of going with the electronic shutter if that won't affect the image. So, yes it is a mild annoyance that these cameras don't have a full mechanical shutter, but, IMO, it should not be a deal breaker for almost anyone and if it is for any particular individual they will just have to live with the slightly larger A7 IV or A7r V.
p.24 #16 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
Steve Spencer wrote:
I just wanted to jump in and say the EFCS issue is not just theoretical. You get it when shooting fast shutter speeds with wide apertures. Back when I had an A7r II, a camera in which you had to switch between EFCS and full manual, I got the effect worsening the bokeh in a number of real world shots. It wasn't a big deal with that camera as you could switch to full manual but in brighter light with a wide open f/1.2 or f/1.4 aperture and shutter speeds faster than 1/1000 or 1/2000 you could definitely see it. It was enough that I tried to remember to switch EFCS to Manual in such situations and I forgot to switch enough at the beginning that I have a number of times when I switched half way through and bokeh was clearly better when I switched to full manual. So, it is not a problem that happens a lot (you get it with fast shutter speeds and wide apertures), but it is not entirely an theoretical problem either....Show more →
I think its occurrence is more often discussed theoretically than actually observed. I think the problems of shutter shock, shutter lag, and not seeing the moment of exposure are much more real issues for most shooters (not all). But you're right. It is not theoretical. The word I should have used is "rare." For me in my shooting, it is non-existent.
p.24 #17 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
Got to play with both the cameras and lens at a hands on demo day last weekend. Here were my main takeaways which I had concerns about going in.
1) The EVF is fine for most people most of the time. I think this is a case of people who specialize in the thing being hyper critical of everything.
2) No matter how much light we threw at the back screen it was still usable.
3) It was quite comfortable to hold both with and without the extended grip (do note my hands are on the smaller size).
4) The 2 is "significantly" more video capable than the R. Again, no surprise there and again I think either would work fine for most people most of the time.
5) The biggest print for the R would be around 20x30 for 300dpi and larger than 40x60 for 100dpi. So yes it can do billboards if that's your thing.
p.24 #18 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
While at my local camera store, someone walked in and puts on the counter 2 camera bodies. I look at them and notice they are the a7cii and the a7cR. The cR is also equipped with the 16-35GMii. The person is the local Sony rep. Just one word… wow.
They are super light, grip is very comfy and grip extension makes a HUGE difference without being too big. I now have to figure out which one I want…
The 16-35 looks really good. somewhat smaller than the original one. Much shorter lens extension. It is nice and seems very solid, but I think I will stick with my pz16-35.
I’ve tried the cR with a 40mm f2.5. it looks like the modern replacement of the RX1R. Almost small enough to be pocketable.
p.24 #19 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
Ok, we’ve heard a lot now about these A7CR and A7C II. I admit I’m indecisive about which one to get. I am not a video shooter so it’s all about still. I’ve used every sensor Sony has in full frame except for the one in the A7S family. I currently own the RV and A1 and recently sold my A7C and A7 IV.
I’ve been inclined to get the A7C II and it’s 33 Mpixel even though the A7CR is more crop-able but for casual travel and take anywhere use because of their small size I’m just not convinced I need the CR.
Is my thinking wrong? I’ve shot with film and with digital from 3 Mpixel at the start.
What are others planning to do? The C II starts shipping 2 weeks and the CR in 4 was so I have to make up my mind. Have both on pre-order. Help me decide. Thank you.
p.24 #20 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
swldstn wrote:
Ok, we’ve heard a lot now about these A7CR and A7C II. I admit I’m indecisive about which one to get. I am not a video shooter so it’s all about still. I’ve used every sensor Sony has in full frame except for the one in the A7S family. I currently own the RV and A1 and recently sold my A7C and A7 IV.
I’ve been inclined to get the A7C II and it’s 33 Mpixel even though the A7CR is more crop-able but for casual travel and take anywhere use because of their small size I’m just not convinced I need the CR.
Is my thinking wrong? I’ve shot with Gil and with digital from 3 Mpixel at the start.
What are others planning to do? The C II starts shipping 2 weeks and the CR in 4 was so I have to make up my mind. Have both on pre-order. Help me decide. Thank you.
Personally the only negative of the A7cr over the A7c2 is the extra price. If that’s not an obstacle, I’d go for the A7cr. That’s what I’m planning on doing.
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