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Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!

  
 
1bwana1
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p.33 #1 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


duncang wrote:
You can 'spin' this whatever way you want but the reality is the Z8/Z9's are processor constrained and as a result you see a performance improvement in subject detection when the image area is reduced in size.

No way Nikon intentionally designed it like that, that would simply be one of the tradeoffs they had to make to get a product to market. Almost certainly some future Z8/Z9 version will have a faster processor or a dedicated ai chip and enhanced subject detection performance that largely addresses this limitation. I would be very surprised if they didn't already have such
...Show more

As far as I know there is only one FF camera in the World with a dedicated Focus AI chip, and that is not on a comparable stacked sensor, but one with an extremely slow scan speed. We have no idea whether these two technologies are even additive to each other. At this point I think it premature to label any camera without such a chip "constrained". Probably better to call them "current state of the art".



May 29, 2023 at 10:46 PM
duncang
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p.33 #2 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


groob wrote:
Great, for the 50th time, we’ve established that the A1 is slightly more customizable and works slightly better, but neither of those will result in a material difference in output. Glad we could clear that up…for the 50th time.


For landscapes - correct.



May 29, 2023 at 10:49 PM
1bwana1
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p.33 #3 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!




arbitrage wrote:
I'm just talking about ease of use and ultimate control over the camera. As I've mentioned before, my decision to use an A1 over a Z9 as my daily driver has little to do with the actual AF abilities. It is more because of the ease of use, flexibility and control I have with Sony's system. What I was talking about above is mostly just that. It makes my life easier and more predictable and lets me do things how I want to. Other systems force me to do things I'd prefer not to if I didn't have to.


And that is exactly what people are discussing under the term workflow.



May 29, 2023 at 11:24 PM
lukemeup
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p.33 #4 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


Mine arrived today - works like a Z9. I'm super happy it's not smaller because it would be uncomfortable to hold with 800PF attached without a grip (and I don't want/need a grip).


May 29, 2023 at 11:32 PM
Richard-BB
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p.33 #5 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


Correct. Nikon Z9 battery made in Japan with lithium from PRC?

US law Made in China made illegal like DJI drones?



May 30, 2023 at 12:17 AM
duncang
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p.33 #6 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


1bwana1 wrote:
As far as I know there is only one FF camera in the World with a dedicated Focus AI chip, and that is not on a comparable stacked sensor, but one with an extremely slow scan speed. We have no idea whether these two technologies are even additive to each other. At this point I think it premature to label any camera without such a chip "constrained". Probably better to call them "current state of the art".


Digic X (early 2020) has a dedicated block of specialised circuitry for processing ai models for faster subject recognition and tracking - used on both stacked and non-stacked sensor cameras - so absolutely the ai chip technology is compatible for use with stacked sensors.

By definition "processor constrained" means that you can improve performance by increasing processing speed/capacity or alternately, as is the case with the Z8/Z9, by reducing the data set being analysed e.g. reduce the size of the scene being analysed to identify subjects in less time and more accurately. However in the latter case the performance improvement is only useful if somehow you can be sure that the data set that was not analysed would not yield any useful information. Here Nikon are relying on the 'pro' user to position the focus area on the subject accurately and have 'outsourced' this work to the user. For that they pay you in advance in the form of a discount on the camera (vs other flagship cameras).







May 30, 2023 at 12:42 AM
Alistair1
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p.33 #7 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


duncang wrote:
Digic X (early 2020) has a dedicated block of specialised circuitry for processing ai models for faster subject recognition and tracking - used on both stacked and non-stacked sensor cameras - so absolutely the ai chip technology is compatible for use with stacked sensors.

By definition "processor constrained" means that you can improve performance by increasing processing speed/capacity or alternately, as is the case with the Z8/Z9, by reducing the data set being analysed e.g. reduce the size of the scene being analysed to identify subjects in less time and more accurately. However in the latter case the performance improvement
...Show more
. Processor constrained. Where do you get your material from?



May 30, 2023 at 02:41 AM
ilkka_nissila
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p.33 #8 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


Here is a video showing how takeoff images can be captured with pre-release capture:



It's a Nikon Europe video so it wouldn't emphasize difficulties but it does showcase the capability that this feature can give.

In my opinion also Jan's video is overall very positive about the Z8's capabilities. It's just that this forum has a tendency to only talk about one particular aspect endlessly. For me, being able to define the size and shape of the AF area and include subject-detection within that area is what I've enjoyed and found most effective using the Nikons that I have. Having a whole-frame auto-area isn't necessary for me and it would not work well in the case of multiple subjects in the frame which is common e.g. in wedding and other event photography. Quite a lot of this forum seems to be dedicated to discussing the single case of one difficult to track, small subject in the frame with backgrounds of varying complexities. I think that's 0.1% of typical challenges in photography and not 1%.

Challenges that I face in my photography include (1) lighting and managing it in the flow of things, (2) interaction with the subjects, (3) being there in the right place at the right time. Autofocus? It's way down on the list. Even with my several years old cameras, I typically get 85-99.9% in focus depending on the difficulty of the situation, and I just shoot that many extra pics that that small miss factor just doesn't affect the overall outcome in a significant way. Not like things at or near the top of the list. For example, do I get a reflection from eyeglasses, and if I do, do I notice it on time to make changes? How is the mood and personality of the subjects reflected in the images? Where do I need to place myself at different times? Should I interact or let the situation flow on its own? Is there something I can do to reduce the amount of editing I have to do later, while still shooting? Should I aim for greater variety or just prioritise the quality of the shots from a single perspective?

With regards to the camera itself, things that matter to me include (1) does it work with the lenses that I want to use, (2) does it work with the flashes that I want to use, (3) is the viewfinder showing me the subject with minimal gear-related distractions or delays, (4) is it comfortable to hold, (5) does it get in my way or make it easier for me to do my thing? For some, auto-area AF may be important; I am used to pointing to the camera where the subject is, approximately, and since that method works for all cases (also when there are multiple subjects in the frame) and works with a whole range of cameras of different generations, I prefer using that rather than a very camera-dependent auto-area. Standardizing on one basic technique means I'm equally ready to shoot picking up a 14-year-old camera as something launched in 2023. Whether this is limiting to the photographer is very subjective and each photographer can pick the gear they prefer to work with.



May 30, 2023 at 03:56 AM
groob
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p.33 #9 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


duncang wrote:
For landscapes - correct.


What a fun, pithy comment. You’ve really shown your work with this one, and your contention is definitely not belied by all available evidence and contradicted by everyone who has used both systems. Seriously, besides swallows, for which the veracity of your statement is already questionable based on photos captured by users here, name a subject that will the materially affect the output when using an A1 instead of a Z9/Z8.

Edited on May 30, 2023 at 08:32 AM · View previous versions



May 30, 2023 at 06:36 AM
groob
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p.33 #10 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!




ilkka_nissila wrote:
Here is a video showing how takeoff images can be captured with pre-release capture:



It's a Nikon Europe video so it wouldn't emphasize difficulties but it does showcase the capability that this feature can give.

In my opinion also Jan's video is overall very positive about the Z8's capabilities. It's just that this forum has a tendency to only talk about one particular aspect endlessly. For me, being able to define the size and shape of the AF area and include subject-detection within that area is what I've enjoyed and found most effective using the Nikons that I have. Having a whole-frame
...Show more

Yeah, I like Georgina, and I don’t have any real concerns about a Z8/9 maintaining focus on birds taking off or during a sharp change in flight path. If one needs any proof that a Z9 is capable of staying on an incredibly difficult bird to photograph, check out Ray Hennessy’s photos of warblers in flight. They’re going to be just as difficult to track, if not more so, than swallows, although warblers will start from a stationary perch. That said, I do remain curious to know where the Z9’s limitations are, just like with any camera system I use. As far as I can tell, the only issues are going to be with something like a swallow, which, who cares, they’re going to be difficult with all systems, and possibly when the subject-to-background distance changes instantly. I shoot birds much more than anything else, and those two situations might arise 0.0001% of the time.



May 30, 2023 at 06:46 AM
 


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gdsf2
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p.33 #11 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


From the discussion here, it seems some folks should wait a few years for AI technology to improve. Then you won’t have to worry about how quick or sticky your AF is. You won’t even need a camera. You can just type what you want your photo to look like and the computer will generate it for you. No more need for pesky cameras or lenses. Heck, you will never need to leave your house.

How did people ever take photos in the past? Must be a lost art. Or soon will be.



May 30, 2023 at 07:07 AM
ilkka_nissila
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p.33 #12 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


gdsf2 wrote:
From the discussion here, it seems some folks should wait a few years for AI technology to improve. Then you won’t have to worry about how quick or sticky your AF is. You won’t even need a camera. You can just type what you want your photo to look like and the computer will generate it for you. No more need for pesky cameras or lenses. Heck, you will never need to leave your house.

How did people ever take photos in the past? Must be a lost art. Or soon will be.


I think quite a lot of people still value the connection between a photograph and a real moment that happened in the physical world, rather than a visual interpretation of words by a computer program. At least I enjoy knowing that what is shown by the photograph really happened, it is a document. Of course images have been forged, manipulated and misappropriated through history, but still there is this connection between a photograph (while it still is a photograph) and reality.

I actually look forward to the content authentication initiative and how that will enable viewers of images to check what kind of editing was done to the images, if any. I imagine news agencies will be keen on using this feature.



May 30, 2023 at 07:24 AM
gdsf2
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p.33 #13 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


ilkka_nissila wrote:
I think quite a lot of people still value the connection between a photograph and a real moment that happened in the physical world, rather than a visual interpretation of words by a computer program. At least I enjoy knowing that what is shown by the photograph really happened, it is a document. Of course images have been forged, manipulated and misappropriated through history, but still there is this connection between a photograph (while it still is a photograph) and reality.

I actually look forward to the content authentication initiative and how that will enable viewers of images to check what
...Show more

I agree.

I was being sarcastic. I am just amazed at how powerful these cameras are yet people still want the camera to do more of the work.



May 30, 2023 at 07:30 AM
JustShootMe
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p.33 #14 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


gdsf2 wrote:
I agree.

I was being sarcastic. I am just amazed at how powerful these cameras are yet people still want the camera to do more of the work.


People will always find something to complain about , grass is always greener on the other side. I occasionally still use my D800E , still love it ... boy have things changed.



May 30, 2023 at 07:34 AM
bs kite
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p.33 #15 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


I remember my thoughts from back in the 70's when I tried to capture a sharp image of a flying bird.
It was possible I supposed, but only by chance and I wondered if one day the technology would allow it.

Through the years, there is one thing that has not changed. The most enjoyable part of every outing I've had in nature is simply experiencing the nature.



May 30, 2023 at 09:32 AM
JustShootMe
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p.33 #16 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


bs kite wrote:
I remember my thoughts from back in the 70's when I tried to capture a sharp image of a flying bird.
It was possible I supposed, but only by chance and I wondered if one day the technology would allow it.

Through the years, there is one thing that has not changed. The most enjoyable part of every outing I've had in nature is simply experiencing the nature.


Yup , I enjoy every minute I can get away from the computer. Discussion about gear can sometimes be interesting , but really taking photos is more interesting. We all want the best tool possible to capture that one moment. Regardless of camera brand and specs , the person holding the camera is the key to said photo. Sure are a lot of shitty photos taken with an A1 on Facebook... camera can't do it all.



May 30, 2023 at 09:42 AM
wjmeyer
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p.33 #17 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


gdsf2 wrote:
From the discussion here, it seems some folks should wait a few years for AI technology to improve. Then you won’t have to worry about how quick or sticky your AF is. You won’t even need a camera. You can just type what you want your photo to look like and the computer will generate it for you. No more need for pesky cameras or lenses. Heck, you will never need to leave your house.

How did people ever take photos in the past? Must be a lost art. Or soon will be.


I completely understood your sarcasm here and wonder sometimes where this is all heading or where expectations will be in the next decade or so. What drew me to photography in the early days was when I grabbed my dads Minolta when I went on a hike and the excitement of being able to grab a moment in time that I could then reflect on in the future. My memory ain't so hot these days so it is fun to revisit experiences captured on film (and now digitally) and I think that is the beauty of photography. We can debate all we want about features and functions of different cameras but at the end of the day we each use the camera/lens as a tool to capture a moment in time for our (and sometimes others) enjoyment, and sometimes we can even get paid for our talents



May 30, 2023 at 01:21 PM
RoamingScott
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p.33 #18 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


I’m not even 40 yet and my memory sucks…yet looking at a photo unlocks all the sounds, smells, and feelings of that moment. It’s my way to help remember my own story. AI (short of noise reduction/sharpening) has very little interest for me, as I prefer my photography to be as authentic to those hard to access memories as possible

I don’t even mind when the image has some flaws, as they usually reflect my state of mind at the time of shooting…struggling in the desert heat, getting dizzy on a mountain top, etc. Authenticity is everything for me, I’m not shooting for Nat Geo and I’m certainly not chasing any sort of perfection.

wjmeyer wrote:
I completely understood your sarcasm here and wonder sometimes where this is all heading or where expectations will be in the next decade or so. What drew me to photography in the early days was when I grabbed my dads Minolta when I went on a hike and the excitement of being able to grab a moment in time that I could then reflect on in the future. My memory ain't so hot these days so it is fun to revisit experiences captured on film (and now digitally) and I think that is the beauty of photography. We can debate
...Show more



May 30, 2023 at 02:07 PM
dcisive
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p.33 #19 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


I'm sure I've gone against the grain, but have a Z9 coming tomorrow to try out and see what it's all about. I rather like the idea of a Pro body layout as it has. We shall see.....


May 30, 2023 at 06:45 PM
RoamingScott
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p.33 #20 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!


What’s more “pro” to you about the Z9 layout?

dcisive wrote:
I'm sure I've gone against the grain, but have a Z9 coming tomorrow to try out and see what it's all about. I rather like the idea of a Pro body layout as it has. We shall see.....




May 30, 2023 at 07:16 PM
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