p.32 #1 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
groob wrote:
Practically speaking, though, I think these are tiny concerns when considering the overall system. I mean, my God, what a first world problem it is to complain that we might need to turn a dial or push a different button to change AF modes or create a slightly smaller AF box for different subjects in challenging circumstances instead of just relying on the camera to get it right automatically. Everyone is still so hyper-focused on the 1% of extremely challenging situations that it obscures the 99%. I am glad to know where the difference lie, but most of these discussions result in the exceptions swallowing the rule. ...Show more →
Well said. When I started out I was trying to take photos of wildlife with a 40D and the mediocre 28-135 lens that I got with it. Everything now is easy compared to that...
p.32 #3 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
sum1sgrampa wrote:
I understand exactly what he was trying to do but he's simply setting up the system to fail. I'll stand by this, there's no reason to begin tracking a bird from that far away. So what would be the point of switching to a different AF mode for a photo you don't want to take ? I find myself in these situations constantly, Eagles, Osprey, Terns. Anyone who has been doing this for a while and is familiar with their equipment can gauge acceptable shooting distance. I watch to see if they are going to be approaching me. Then I lift the lens and usually manual focus to get an approximate distance dialed in. Or I prefocus on a tree, a log, sometimes even the water. Something that's not moving but is in that acceptable range. I don't bother tracking them until they get close to that border of acceptable distance. So his findings are pretty much irrelevant for my uses. Yours may be different. I've sat and watched from a distance many more birds fishing or interacting than I have photographed them.
This reminds me of so many other "issues" we see on these forums that come up from time to time. Flare, banding, you name it. Somebody works hard to create an unlikely situation that proves they've discovered a problem. That "problem" takes on a life of it's own and before you know it, the Z8/9 AF sucks. Rubbish.
Gary...Show more →
"Somebody works hard to create an unlikely situation that proves they've discovered a problem. That "problem" takes on a life of it's own and before you know it, the Z8/9 AF sucks. Rubbish."
And they leave out the part that Jan considered to be the most important .......
"Final Thoughts".......
1. "In terms of value to money, the Z8 offers some features unheard of in its 4000 USD price range. Specifically the stacked sensor that allows us to have super fast readout speeds and no rolling shutter, something that is very welcome and no other camera can offer in this price range."
2. "On top of that we also get the class-leading image stabilization that makes hand-holding and handheld videos so easy to do."
3. "Battery life could be a little bit better, but with a few spare batteries it shouldn't really be a problem."
Then he mentions that the size and weight are perfect
p.32 #4 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
Extreme case or not, Jan was intentionally crippling the AF and made no attempt to fix it during the times it wasn't working for him. That doesn't demonstrate anything other than poor technique or a lack of understanding. Nor does it help his credibility with regards to future videos. Maybe the Z8 would have tracked that bird, maybe it wouldn't have, but we'll never know because of how he was shooting it.
He changed the AF mode on average nearly 1.5 times per second which is ridiculous - nobody uses a camera like that. Furthermore, several times he manually over-rode subject detection and directed the camera to AF on the water, then complained that subject detection wasn't working against the water. It seemed more like he wanted to force a certain outcome for the sake of his video, or maybe because he owns what is probably $50K of Canon gear. Who knows. Funny we never see any actual evidence to accompany these comments comparing systems - he could have shown footage of a different camera shot side by side with the same subject and conditions, but I guess it's easier not to
The only reason these types of videos bother me sometimes is because people who don't know any better might watch them and make purchase decisions based on poor testing methodology or questionable agendas. It reminded me of one of Fro's videos complaining the camera wasn't picking up faces when he did not have face detection enabled. Most of us here know to take those kinds of videos with a grain of salt, but many do not. Maybe Jan had the best of intentions, but I think he's experienced enough to know that no camera is going to respond well to spastically changing AF modes in a totally unrealistic and unnecessary way. It seemed like he had great results with a long rectangular Wide Area box which is great, but a lot of his "testing" up to that point seemed like it was intentionally set up to fail and I think he knows better.
p.32 #6 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
1bwana1 wrote:
I watched that video and I don't recall hearing Jan or anyone in this thread saying anything about the Z9/Z8 sucks. Very much the opposite actually.
Understood. But c'mon Steve, you surely understand the point I was trying to make.
May 29, 2023 at 05:39 PM
duncang Offline • • • [X]
p.32 #7 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
dcisive wrote:
The way I interpret Jan's video was while he initially had issues with losing a bird when near brush or water, when he got smart and adjusted to a Custom box that was smaller and rectangular, it eliminated his issue altogether which he also was very clear about, stating it was the best performance he'd seen to date. So he learned that the Z8 (like the Z9) was not designed to be an "auto pilot" mentality when shooting, but rather giving the user the full flexibility to dial it in for each specific shooting scenario. Professionals tend to want that, and that is the audience Nikon has sought all these years. And they are nailing it. Canon and Sony are for autopilot folks. I have an A7RV currently awaiting a Z8 and while missing focus is NOT my issue with the Sony due to it's advanced AI tech, there are other aspects of the Z8 I am very curious to experience. ...Show more →
No 'pro' or anyone else for that matter is going to want to use a smaller focus area when trying to acquire focus on fast moving subjects unless they have to.
The user doesn't get "full flexibility" as you put it - they can't use the full frame mode because it doesn't perform adequately - they are limited to using one of the smaller focus area modes to acquire the subject in the same time - however that comes at a cost and required more accurate positioning of the subject in the focus area than would otherwise be required.
You can 'spin' this whatever way you want but the reality is the Z8/Z9's are processor constrained and as a result you see a performance improvement in subject detection when the image area is reduced in size.
No way Nikon intentionally designed it like that, that would simply be one of the tradeoffs they had to make to get a product to market. Almost certainly some future Z8/Z9 version will have a faster processor or a dedicated ai chip and enhanced subject detection performance that largely addresses this limitation. I would be very surprised if they didn't already have such a design under development.
p.32 #9 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
CanadaMark wrote:
To clarify, as I see how my comment may have been confusing to some - I have never experienced ridiculously long periods of the AF failing to grab the subject, like in Jan's video. I have of course experienced brief moments where the AF takes a second to "wake up" or acquire the target (as with every MILC I have ever used to varying degrees), but Jan's video shows a ~15 second sequence where the AF isn't grabbing the bird and no, I can honestly say I have never experienced anything that extreme in similar shooting conditions. I can't say it will never happen, only that I haven't seen it yet. In that situation, a quick twist of the MF ring to help bring the AF closer would have very likely corrected the issue right away rather than wasting shots for 10+ seconds - as far as I can tell in his video he did not try that either. He was also switching between 3 different AF modes rapidly during that sequence and that was only making things worse as he had his single point AF all over the place, often on the waves. If for whatever reason the camera was confusing the bird for waves, simply switching the camera to closest subject priority would likely have also solved his problem, especially for slow birds with a predictable flight path like that. FW 3.X seems a bit snappier and more confident overall compared to 1.X but I haven't noticed dramatic night & day differences in terms of subject acquisition, at least in the conditions I shoot in which is all I can speak to....Show more →
I agree about the MF tweak....I do that all the time and the entire time I was watching those first osprey sequences I was almost screaming at the screen to just MF it closer and it should AF no problem. I did see a few times that the blue peaking showed up so he must have done MF but I think those may have just been inadvertent touches to the MF ring while panning along??
p.32 #10 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
duncang wrote:
No 'pro' or anyone else for that matter is going to want to use a smaller focus area when trying to acquire focus on fast moving subjects unless they have to.
The user doesn't get "full flexibility" as you put it - they can't use the full frame mode because it doesn't perform adequately - they are limited to using one of the smaller focus area modes to acquire the subject in the same time - however that comes at a cost and required more accurate positioning of the subject in the focus area than would otherwise be required.
You can 'spin' this whatever way you want but the reality is the Z8/Z9's are processor constrained and as a result you see a performance improvement in subject detection when the image area is reduced in size.
No way Nikon intentionally designed it like that, that would simply be one of the tradeoffs they had to make to get a product to market. Almost certainly some future Z8/Z9 version will have a faster processor or a dedicated ai chip and enhanced subject detection performance that largely addresses this limitation. I would be very surprised if they didn't already have such a design under development....Show more →
Totally, it’s crazy that the Z9 can ever get a subject in focus. How could a photographer ever be expected to get their intended subject inside of a large box in the viewfinder?
p.32 #11 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
arbitrage wrote:
I agree about the MF tweak....I do that all the time and the entire time I was watching those first osprey sequences I was almost screaming at the screen to just MF it closer and it should AF no problem. I did see a few times that the blue peaking showed up so he must have done MF but I think those may have just been inadvertent touches to the MF ring while panning along??
Same. I’ve followed Jan since his BPN days. He’s produced incredible results for years, but it was very strange that he didn’t even bring it up.
p.32 #12 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
dcisive wrote:
The way I interpret Jan's video was while he initially had issues with losing a bird when near brush or water, when he got smart and adjusted to a Custom box that was smaller and rectangular, it eliminated his issue altogether which he also was very clear about, stating it was the best performance he'd seen to date. So he learned that the Z8 (like the Z9) was not designed to be an "auto pilot" mentality when shooting, but rather giving the user the full flexibility to dial it in for each specific shooting scenario. Professionals tend to want that, and that is the audience Nikon has sought all these years. And they are nailing it. Canon and Sony are for autopilot folks. I have an A7RV currently awaiting a Z8 and while missing focus is NOT my issue with the Sony due to it's advanced AI tech, there are other aspects of the Z8 I am very curious to experience. ...Show more →
I'd prefer the camera that is good in autopilot AND has full flexibility to dial it in. There is one brand out there that has the best autopilot (ie stick it in full sensor AF without tracking and it will nail almost anything moving) AND it also has the most flexibility in how you can use its 7 AF modes because all 7 can either be used restricted to their individual areas OR combined with tracking so you can target a subject or specific part of a subject with a small point and then have it track frame wide. You are experienced in that system so you've tasted the good stuff. When you experience that Z8 you won't feel like you have more flexibility...you will feel the exact opposite.
Now Nikon's system is nice that you can customize the size of the Wide Area box...that was a powerful addition to the system. What Nikon should add now is an option where those AF modes can be setup to either work as they do now OR to initiate within and then track throughout. Nikon only has this option in 3D mode but that uses such a small box that it is very hard to target fast subjects. AutoAF works if backgrounds are far away and OOF but unfortunately Z AutoAF does not share the uncanny ability of F-mount DLSR Auto AF which could basically do what Sony Wide can do...ie....autopilot mode
Canon sort of went two steps forward, one step back when they changed the AF mode behavior in the R3 and onwards compared to the R5. Now the AF modes do track over the frame after initializing with the selected AF area but unless you turn subject/eye detect off, they can't be used to not track over the frame. Sony's method is better...tracking and subject/eye AF aren't tied together. I can have any sized AF area do subject/eye AF confined to looking in the given area OR have it do that and then track over the frame. Or I can turn off eye detect and have it do tracking of an object over the frame.
p.32 #13 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
arbitrage wrote:
Now Nikon's system is nice that you can customize the size of the Wide Area box...that was a powerful addition to the system. What Nikon should add now is an option where those AF modes can be setup to either work as they do now OR to initiate within and then track throughout. Nikon only has this option in 3D mode but that uses such a small box that it is very hard to target fast subjects. AutoAF works if backgrounds are far away and OOF but unfortunately Z AutoAF does not share the uncanny ability of F-mount DLSR Auto AF which could basically do what Sony Wide can do...ie....autopilot mode ...Show more →
Can't you just use Wide-L or one of the other focus boxes for the initial focus then hit a hotkey for 3d tracking to take over , that's what I do .. works well. That's not so different than the competition , just one added press of the finger.
p.32 #14 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
sum1sgrampa wrote:
Understood. But c'mon Steve, you surely understand the point I was trying to make.
Yes, I do and unfortunately an example of what your point was made shortly after our exchange. But that is Ok in the context of the realities of the camera World. The truth seem to me to be that in objective analysis the Z8/Z9 AF is excellent. It can do things that were unheard of just a short time ago. But cameras live in an environment of choices. So in a subjective analysis there are cameras that do things in a way that some have preferences for.
I Like Arbitrage's position. It acknowledges the situation fairly, and makes allowances for possible improvements. No bashing involved.
I think at this point everyone can agree that on a performance / price analysis the Z8 represents the best value in AF (among other things) on the market today. That is not a bad place for Nikon to fly its flag.
p.32 #15 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
arbitrage wrote:
I'd prefer the camera that is good in autopilot AND has full flexibility to dial it in. There is one brand out there that has the best autopilot (ie stick it in full sensor AF without tracking and it will nail almost anything moving) AND it also has the most flexibility in how you can use its 7 AF modes because all 7 can either be used restricted to their individual areas OR combined with tracking so you can target a subject or specific part of a subject with a small point and then have it track frame wide. You are experienced in that system so you've tasted the good stuff. When you experience that Z8 you won't feel like you have more flexibility...you will feel the exact opposite.
Now Nikon's system is nice that you can customize the size of the Wide Area box...that was a powerful addition to the system. What Nikon should add now is an option where those AF modes can be setup to either work as they do now OR to initiate within and then track throughout. Nikon only has this option in 3D mode but that uses such a small box that it is very hard to target fast subjects. AutoAF works if backgrounds are far away and OOF but unfortunately Z AutoAF does not share the uncanny ability of F-mount DLSR Auto AF which could basically do what Sony Wide can do...ie....autopilot mode
Canon sort of went two steps forward, one step back when they changed the AF mode behavior in the R3 and onwards compared to the R5. Now the AF modes do track over the frame after initializing with the selected AF area but unless you turn subject/eye detect off, they can't be used to not track over the frame. Sony's method is better...tracking and subject/eye AF aren't tied together. I can have any sized AF area do subject/eye AF confined to looking in the given area OR have it do that and then track over the frame. Or I can turn off eye detect and have it do tracking of an object over the frame....Show more →
And yet, even according to you, the only subject for which one is likely to notice a material difference in the rate of in-focus photos is swallows. So…what exactly are we even talking about here? How it is very slightly easier to attain a 90% keeper rate of in-flight buffleheads on one system than another?
p.32 #16 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
JustShootMe wrote:
Can't you just use Wide-L or one of the other focus boxes for the initial focus then hit a hotkey for 3d tracking to take over , that's what I do .. works well. That's not so different than the competition , just one added press of the finger.
Of course....that is the "workflow" people are tired of discussing. The handoff method. But it wasn't working for Jan during his first day out....worked better when he started with a smaller Wide Area.
I found this same thing when shooting swallows, my best results were actually using Wide-S and then handing off to AutoAF (I really don't like 3D AF for the handoff as it never seemed to track as well as Auto). Now I'd rather just have a Wide-S with Tracking so I don't have to use a second handoff button and can instead just concentrate on keeping the speedy bullets in the frame
p.32 #17 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
groob wrote:
And yet, even according to you, the only subject for which one is likely to notice a material difference in the rate of in-focus photos is swallows. So…what exactly are we even talking about here? How one system is very slightly easier to attain a 90% keeper rate of in-flight buffleheads?
I'm just talking about ease of use and ultimate control over the camera. As I've mentioned before, my decision to use an A1 over a Z9 as my daily driver has little to do with the actual AF abilities. It is more because of the ease of use, flexibility and control I have with Sony's system. What I was talking about above is mostly just that. It makes my life easier and more predictable and lets me do things how I want to. Other systems force me to do things I'd prefer not to if I didn't have to.
p.32 #18 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
arbitrage wrote:
I'd prefer the camera that is good in autopilot AND has full flexibility to dial it in. There is one brand out there that has the best autopilot (ie stick it in full sensor AF without tracking and it will nail almost anything moving) AND it also has the most flexibility in how you can use its 7 AF modes because all 7 can either be used restricted to their individual areas OR combined with tracking so you can target a subject or specific part of a subject with a small point and then have it track frame wide. You are experienced in that system so you've tasted the good stuff. When you experience that Z8 you won't feel like you have more flexibility...you will feel the exact opposite.
Now Nikon's system is nice that you can customize the size of the Wide Area box...that was a powerful addition to the system. What Nikon should add now is an option where those AF modes can be setup to either work as they do now OR to initiate within and then track throughout. Nikon only has this option in 3D mode but that uses such a small box that it is very hard to target fast subjects. AutoAF works if backgrounds are far away and OOF but unfortunately Z AutoAF does not share the uncanny ability of F-mount DLSR Auto AF which could basically do what Sony Wide can do...ie....autopilot mode
Canon sort of went two steps forward, one step back when they changed the AF mode behavior in the R3 and onwards compared to the R5. Now the AF modes do track over the frame after initializing with the selected AF area but unless you turn subject/eye detect off, they can't be used to not track over the frame. Sony's method is better...tracking and subject/eye AF aren't tied together. I can have any sized AF area do subject/eye AF confined to looking in the given area OR have it do that and then track over the frame. Or I can turn off eye detect and have it do tracking of an object over the frame....Show more →
This is the clearest and shortest explanation I've read about AF systems of Sony, Canon and Nikon.
p.32 #19 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
It's funny that Jan is 1) a pretty well known YouTuber who most seem to respect somewhat, given how many of his videos make it on here, 2) someone who has actually spent time with the Z8 in his hands, and 3)still managed to get it wrong, and not just wrong, but WAY wrong.
Makes you wonder about those that lurk about who don't have any real Z8/Z9 experience and keep talking like they do...how wrong are THEY getting it? Hmmmm....
p.32 #20 · Nikon unveils the highly anticipated Z8 camera!
arbitrage wrote:
I'm just talking about ease of use and ultimate control over the camera. As I've mentioned before, my decision to use an A1 over a Z9 as my daily driver has little to do with the actual AF abilities. It is more because of the ease of use, flexibility and control I have with Sony's system. What I was talking about above is mostly just that. It makes my life easier and more predictable and lets me do things how I want to. Other systems force me to do things I'd prefer not to if I didn't have to.
Great, for the 50th time, we’ve established that the A1 is slightly more customizable and works slightly better, but neither of those will result in a material difference in output. Glad we could clear that up…for the 50th time.
No further comment. 
