p.48 #1 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
Fred Miranda wrote:
In my opinion, Sony missed a great opportunity with their new compact lenses. I'd prefer if they were f/2 but don't mind f/2.5. What I do mind is that it looks like resolution was a main priority while rendering was just an afterthought.
There is nothing on the market like the RX1 series yet. It's still the smallest full frame camera with a lens capable of high resolution and superior rendering. The latter is still more pleasant than any other recent released 35mm lens imo.
Sony just needs to improve specular highlights' onion ring pattern (easy with their new tech), flare resistance, lower loCA slightly and keep the same rendering. On the camera side, improve the battery, menu and AF speed. The pop-up viewfinder is a bit annoying but has better magnification than the A7C's. Both usable though....Show more →
I had similar thoughts--I would also settle for a f2.8 with good rendering from 24-90mm no complaints. The one thing Sony and Sigma still need to catch Zeiss IMO is the superb colors and contrast--which the RX1 lens also had just wonderfully. As much as I like my 35i, CV's and the new GM lenses, I never find the tonal richness and depth lens like the ZM 35 1.4/Loxia 21/RX1 Sonnar. To me, though Zeiss has fallen behind (or others have caught up) in many areas (size, speed, price, new releases, resolution), the colors and micro-contrast are still unmatched. I think if Sony cared, the know how to make more balanced lenses...but recently releases from pro to budget lens are underscoring a bend towards resolution it seems.
Overall, I still like the RX1r2 files as much as any FF + lens combo I have seen or tried.
p.48 #2 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
nehemiahphoto wrote:
but you take a rendering and speed penalty. I am sure some are happy and consider the a7c with a small lens comparable to an RX1, but I notice quite a difference.
I think the smooth bokeh on the RX1R is nice but it's not the end all be all. I always preferred the "Zeiss look" of sharpness with great micro contrast, punchy colors, and excellent subject separation between foreground and background. This is typically at the expense of harsher bokeh but it has not really bothered me. The small Sony G lenses demonstrate most of the characteristics I'm looking for (see the camera labs tests) except the colors are ever slightly inferior to Zeiss colors.
I also find the usability issues of the RX1 body, antiquated AF, early Sony color science, and etc. to be more than I'm willing to tolerate in 2021 or even in 2018 when I tried it out compared to later Sony cameras. That said, I get this camera has a cult following so if you love it, keep shooting with it.
My current go to combo is the Sony 35mm f1.4 + Sony A7C. It's more mid-sized than small but an excellent lens + camera combo in my opinion. I have not enjoyed using a 35mm lens this much since the Loxia 35mm. I might try the 50mm f2.5 out for an even smaller walk around lens but the 35mm f1.4 is a keeper for sure.
p.48 #3 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
Fred Miranda wrote:
In my opinion, Sony missed a great opportunity with their new compact lenses. I'd prefer if they were f/2 but don't mind f/2.5. What I do mind is that it looks like resolution was a main priority while rendering was just an afterthought.
There is nothing on the market like the RX1 series yet. It's still the smallest full frame camera with a lens capable of high resolution and superior rendering. The latter is still more pleasant than any other recent released 35mm lens imo.
Sony just needs to improve specular highlights' onion ring pattern (easy with their new tech), flare resistance, lower loCA slightly and keep the same rendering. On the camera side, improve the battery, menu and AF speed. The pop-up viewfinder is a bit annoying but has better magnification than the A7C's. Both usable though....Show more →
Outside of the recent $8k 35 APO-Summicron M, is there any compact interchangable lens that actually manages to achieve high resolution and excellent rendering without relying on a trade off like undercorrected SA? I can't think of any.
While the new G lenses certainly aren't rendering stars they don't make the same mistake as lenses like the 35 1.8 FE. Considering they can all be used wide open at MFD to pretty good effect, I'd say many would find them more useful than lenses that render well but need to be stopped down 1-2 stops at distances under a meter.
p.48 #4 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
'At distances under a metre'. Maybe you have a particular need for a 35/1.4 or 2 to have excellent sharpness under a metre. For me, I can't think of any situation in which I would shoot where I would not be happy to stop down a little. Depth of field that close is so limiting that I want the extra depth of f2.8 or f4.
As for rendering, I still love the rendering of the 35/1.4 asph (pre FLE) for portrait or environmental portrait distances at f1.4. It's gorgeous! If you know how to control the focus shift, it is also great at f2 and f2.8. The mid field dip is limiting, but if you avoid exactly the midfield and go only to 1/3 out from the centre (just right for me), it is still a great lens.
The lens on the Zeiss abomination, though, does look like it is in another class, both for sharpness, but also perhaps for rendering.
p.48 #5 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
@wolfloid this most frequently comes up when shooting indoors under bad lighting conditions, as not everyone has a well lit apartment/house and indoors you are frequently unable to always be over a meter from your subject. Note: talking about documentary type shooting more than events which are frequently better lit.
I realize that this is where things start to veer off into pedantry as 2.5 on the 40 G vs 2.8/3.2 on the 35i is a small change in EV/subject separation and at this point I'm arguing mostly on principle. It'd be easier if the new G series were f2, but then they might start to drift away from 'fit it in a jacket pocket' territory
p.48 #7 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
JVan_02 wrote:
Outside of the recent $8k 35 APO-Summicron M, is there any compact interchangable lens that actually manages to achieve high resolution and excellent rendering without relying on a trade off like undercorrected SA? I can't think of any.
While the new G lenses certainly aren't rendering stars they don't make the same mistake as lenses like the 35 1.8 FE. Considering they can all be used wide open at MFD to pretty good effect, I'd say many would find them more useful than lenses that render well but need to be stopped down 1-2 stops at distances under a meter. ...Show more →
Based on the sample gallery I've seen on Dpreview, the Leica 35/2 APO's rendering is similar to the Voigtlander 35/2 APO's with negligible color error and a very clean modern look. The lens is capable of high resolution/contrast but specular highlights also have defined outlining and therefore a more structured draw.
From all the 35mm lenses I've tried, the Voigtlander 35/1.2 III @f/2 and 35/1.7 get the closest to the RX1's Sonnar (although not as smooth focus transition) and oddly the FE 24/1.4 GM in crop mode also provides a similar look. Still, none of these alternatives are as compact as the RX1 series.
I think there are lenses that give images more 'bite', 'pop' or 'Zeiss look' compared to the RX1 or alternatives I mentioned, but this always works against rendering. One example is the new Sony FE 35mm f/1.4 GM. It's a more balanced approach with that 'Zeiss look' while still providing a pleasant neutral rendering, although not quite the same as the best rendering lenses.
IMO, the new FE 50/1.2 GM and 135/1.8 GM lenses follow this same mold as well, whereas the FE 85/1.4 GM renders closer to the 24/1.4 GM and Sonnar 35/2. It looks like recent Sony lenses will continue this more neutral approach to rendering while providing higher resolution/contrast but I'm curious to see the draw from a future Sony 85mm version II.
p.48 #8 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
Fred Miranda wrote:
Based on the sample gallery I've seen on Dpreview, the Leica 35/2 APO's rendering is similar to the Voigtlander 35/2 APO's with negligible color error and a very clean modern look. The lens is capable of high resolution/contrast but specular highlights also have defined outlining and therefore a more structured draw.
From all the 35mm lenses I've tried, the Voigtlander 35/1.2 III @f/2 and 35/1.7 get the closest to the RX1's Sonnar (although not as smooth focus transition) and oddly the FE 24/1.4 GM in crop mode also provides a similar look. Still, none of these alternatives are as compact as the RX1 series.
I think there are lenses that give images more 'bite', 'pop' or 'Zeiss look' compared to the RX1 or alternatives I mentioned, but this always works against rendering. One example is the new Sony FE 35mm f/1.4 GM. It's a more balanced approach with that 'Zeiss look' while still providing a pleasant neutral rendering, although not quite the same as the best rendering lenses.
IMO, the new FE 50/1.2 GM and 135/1.8 GM lenses follow this same mold as well while the FE 85/1.4 GM renders closer to the 24/1.4 GM and Sonnar 35/2. It looks like recent Sony lenses will continue this more neutral approach to rendering while providing higher resolution/contrast but I'm curious to see the draw from a future Sony 85mm version II.....Show more →
Thanks for the summary. Are there any optical engineers here who have ever talked about this sort of thing? Would be nice to definitively know if the fixed lens is what gives the 35 sonnar (&ZX1 distagon) their advantage so we can stop hoping
I think the 35 GM is just another argument for a possible 35 1.8/2 G, though. I've noticed from your review and others that (and of course, user samples here and elsewhere), for me at least, it seems to offer the 'best' compromise in that it has the highest marks as a total of all optical properties without having any kind of fatal flaw. Remarkable lens. If only it were more portable
p.48 #9 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
tzhang4284 wrote:
I think the smooth bokeh on the RX1R is nice but it's not the end all be all. I always preferred the "Zeiss look" of sharpness with great micro contrast, punchy colors, and excellent subject separation between foreground and background. This is typically at the expense of harsher bokeh but it has not really bothered me. The small Sony G lenses demonstrate most of the characteristics I'm looking for (see the camera labs tests) except the colors are ever slightly inferior to Zeiss colors.
I also find the usability issues of the RX1 body, antiquated AF, early Sony color science, and etc. to be more than I'm willing to tolerate in 2021 or even in 2018 when I tried it out compared to later Sony cameras. That said, I get this camera has a cult following so if you love it, keep shooting with it.
My current go to combo is the Sony 35mm f1.4 + Sony A7C. It's more mid-sized than small but an excellent lens + camera combo in my opinion. I have not enjoyed using a 35mm lens this much since the Loxia 35mm. I might try the 50mm f2.5 out for an even smaller walk around lens but the 35mm f1.4 is a keeper for sure....Show more →
I enjoy other lenses too—I don’t need every lens to have the smoothness of that Sonnar. I recently acquired 35 lux pre-asph, which couldn’t be further apart. And I enjoy many 35mm’s between those two extremes The kind of rendering you’re talking about is a little bit more classic zeiss, and specifically reminds me of the CY line which I adore. But for modern highly corrected glass, I do think the RX1 has the best marriage it technical IQ + rendering. Somehow it’s still a reference lens for many despite how old is.
As far as how those new G lenses draw and how close to close (or nice) the colors and rendering are, we are going to disagree. And that’s OK
And yes, I totally agree on many of the usability issues of the RX1 line. I am a slower more methodical shooter, sophisticated AF is not as important to me except in a couple isolated incidents (running dogs/kids—a minority of my overall shooting). I can’t deal with the absolutely horrid battery. Everything else I can put up, but that is a fatal flaw for me.
The GM 35 looks like an excellent option, but on size + body alone (1100g-ish and much larger) of your combo, it’s not an everyday option for me. The RX1 weighs less than the body of the a7c—still amazes me.
p.48 #10 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
nehemiahphoto wrote:
And yes, I totally agree on many of the usability issues of the RX1 line. I am a slower more methodical shooter, sophisticated AF is not as important to me except in a couple isolated incidents (running dogs/kids—a minority of my overall shooting). I can’t deal with the absolutely horrid battery. Everything else I can put up, but that is a fatal flaw for me.
Count me as one of the fans of the RX1, despite its flaws. Speaking of, the battery issue is a big one, but the deal breaker for me was that my original RX1 (non-R) couldn't focus in backlit situations. It would wobble back and forth then stop without locking focus. That coupled with battery life and my excitement with the (then new) A7 and A7R caused me to sell. I still pine after that lens...haha.
So, can anyone with experience of the RX1RII comment on the backlit AF performance? Maybe, must maybe I could deal with the battery and other quirks if the focus was better and I could find one at a price I could accept...
p.48 #11 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
Fred Miranda wrote:
Based on the sample gallery I've seen on Dpreview, the Leica 35/2 APO's rendering is similar to the Voigtlander 35/2 APO's with negligible color error and a very clean modern look. The lens is capable of high resolution/contrast but specular highlights also have defined outlining and therefore a more structured draw.
From all the 35mm lenses I've tried, the Voigtlander 35/1.2 III @f/2 and 35/1.7 get the closest to the RX1's Sonnar (although not as smooth focus transition) and oddly the FE 24/1.4 GM in crop mode also provides a similar look. Still, none of these alternatives are as compact as the RX1 series.
I think there are lenses that give images more 'bite', 'pop' or 'Zeiss look' compared to the RX1 or alternatives I mentioned, but this always works against rendering. One example is the new Sony FE 35mm f/1.4 GM. It's a more balanced approach with that 'Zeiss look' while still providing a pleasant neutral rendering, although not quite the same as the best rendering lenses.
IMO, the new FE 50/1.2 GM and 135/1.8 GM lenses follow this same mold as well, whereas the FE 85/1.4 GM renders closer to the 24/1.4 GM and Sonnar 35/2. It looks like recent Sony lenses will continue this more neutral approach to rendering while providing higher resolution/contrast but I'm curious to see the draw from a future Sony 85mm version II....Show more →
Notable summary Fred. Thank you !
I am a fan of all these 35s to include what I am seeing with ZX1. Going to hand with the GM 35 for my Sony system the foreseeable future, and the Leica 35 FLE for my rangefinder system. 35 Heaven !
I think many of us have seen these ZX1 images already...
p.48 #12 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
JVan_02 wrote:
Thanks for the summary. Are there any optical engineers here who have ever talked about this sort of thing? Would be nice to definitively know if the fixed lens is what gives the 35 sonnar (&ZX1 distagon) their advantage so we can stop hoping
I think the 35 GM is just another argument for a possible 35 1.8/2 G, though. I've noticed from your review and others that (and of course, user samples here and elsewhere), for me at least, it seems to offer the 'best' compromise in that it has the highest marks as a total of all optical properties without having any kind of fatal flaw. Remarkable lens. If only it were more portable
Generally, the advantage of a fixed lens is that the lens and the sensor can be designed as an integral optical system:
- sensor stack thickness (i.e. optical thickness)
- color reproduction
- distance between the last element of the lens and the sensor can be very small
- last element of the lens can be very large, enabling light rays to hit the sensor at a right angle, which minimizes color shift
- only changes in focus distance will induce changes in geometry, making in-camera post-processing easier
- automatic sharpening might be optimized across the frame, as the resolution of the lens/sensor system is known
- electrical wiring and weather sealing is easier
p.48 #13 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
nehemiahphoto wrote:
I enjoy other lenses too—I don’t need every lens to have the smoothness of that Sonnar. I recently acquired 35 lux pre-asph, which couldn’t be further apart. And I enjoy many 35mm’s between those two extremes The kind of rendering you’re talking about is a little bit more classic zeiss, and specifically reminds me of the CY line which I adore. But for modern highly corrected glass, I do think the RX1 has the best marriage it technical IQ + rendering. Somehow it’s still a reference lens for many despite how old is.
As far as how those new G lenses draw and how close to close (or nice) the colors and rendering are, we are going to disagree. And that’s OK
And yes, I totally agree on many of the usability issues of the RX1 line. I am a slower more methodical shooter, sophisticated AF is not as important to me except in a couple isolated incidents (running dogs/kids—a minority of my overall shooting). I can’t deal with the absolutely horrid battery. Everything else I can put up, but that is a fatal flaw for me.
The GM 35 looks like an excellent option, but on size + body alone (1100g-ish and much larger) of your combo, it’s not an everyday option for me. The RX1 weighs less than the body of the a7c—still amazes me. ...Show more →
Yeah it's heavier but I feel comfortable carrying the 35mm GM + A7C in the same way as a RX1R, Leica Q or a ZX1 (to tie it back to the original topic). It's a little bigger but you're slinging all of these options over your shoulder or leaving in a backpack till needed. I did try the "put the RX1R into a cargo short pocket or large jacket pocket" and it's not particularly comfortable to carry vs. slinging it.
I also live in a high traffic urban area and I can tell you that anyone carrying more than a smartphone is pretty noticeable. It probably means they're a tourist, photo enthusiast, or wedding photographer depending on the size and expensiveness of the camera gear being carried.
p.48 #14 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
tzhang4284 wrote:
Yeah it's heavier but I feel comfortable carrying the 35mm GM + A7C in the same way as a RX1R, Leica Q or a ZX1 (to tie it back to the original topic). It's a little bigger but you're slinging all of these options over your shoulder or leaving in a backpack till needed. I did try the "put the RX1R into a cargo short pocket or large jacket pocket" and it's not particularly comfortable to carry vs. slinging it.
I also live in a high traffic urban area and I can tell you that anyone carrying more than a smartphone is pretty noticeable. It probably means they're a tourist, photo enthusiast, or wedding photographer depending on the size and expensiveness of the camera gear being carried....Show more →
The larger the camera, the more likely it is that people think you are shooting professionally and not for some nefarious reasons.
p.48 #15 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
Woulda. Coulda. Shoulda.
Wake up and smell the coffee, guys. Superb 35mm lens (now with added Zeiss “magic”) plus competent sensor minus flawed concept minus bulky body minus incompetent marketing minus unrealistic pricing equals a $6000 EPIC FAIL.
On the other hand, B&H currently describes the $5495 Leica Q2 as “More on the Way. Expected availability: 2-4 weeks”.
As for lenses, all the colour and microcontrast in the world count for nothing when Sony, Sigma, and Cosina continue to crank out one superlative lens after another while Zeiss hasn’t released a lens for E-mount since 2018 (Loxia 25 and Batis 40).
p.48 #16 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
genji wrote:
Woulda. Coulda. Shoulda.
Wake up and smell the coffee, guys. Superb 35mm lens (now with added Zeiss “magic”) plus competent sensor minus flawed concept minus bulky body minus incompetent marketing minus unrealistic pricing equals a $6000 EPIC FAIL.
On the other hand, B&H currently describes the $5495 Leica Q2 as “More on the Way. Expected availability: 2-4 weeks”.
As for lenses, all the colour and microcontrast in the world count for nothing when Sony, Sigma, and Cosina continue to crank out one superlative lens after another while Zeiss hasn’t released a lens for E-mount since 2018 (Loxia 25 and Batis 40).
About 47 of 48 pages here disparaging the ZX1 lol. I think the only one has who some delusions is...Zeiss. We are awake, but interested in the lens.
p.48 #17 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
genji wrote:
Woulda. Coulda. Shoulda.
Wake up and smell the coffee, guys. Superb 35mm lens (now with added Zeiss “magic”) plus competent sensor minus flawed concept minus bulky body minus incompetent marketing minus unrealistic pricing equals a $6000 EPIC FAIL.
On the other hand, B&H currently describes the $5495 Leica Q2 as “More on the Way. Expected availability: 2-4 weeks”.
As for lenses, all the colour and microcontrast in the world count for nothing when Sony, Sigma, and Cosina continue to crank out one superlative lens after another while Zeiss hasn’t released a lens for E-mount since 2018 (Loxia 25 and Batis 40).
I sure hope to see a future for new Carl Zeiss optics for our mirrorless mounts. The long sabbatical we have all noticed is indeed concerning for some of us. OTOH, as you wrote, seems many others have happily stepped up to the plate with no less than stunning mirrorless optics. Or as they say in the US, "you snooze you lose"
We know from previous official Zeiss communications their DSLR customer base has probably all but disappeared and that expected market trend had to take down Zeiss corporate motivation for photography lenses along with it particularly when it seems like all the rest of the company's products and services seem to be doing very well. Zeiss recently released another series of the big money Cinema lenses too and my guess is those lenses will bring in plenty or profit as they are typically not consumer purchases. But I do wonder what will happen to all those Milvus lenses, retooled, retired or fire-sale, or something else?
p.48 #18 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
LBJ2 wrote:
I sure hope to see a future for new Carl Zeiss optics for our mirrorless mounts. The long sabbatical we have all noticed is indeed concerning for some of us. OTOH, as you wrote, seems many others have happily stepped up to the plate with no less than stunning mirrorless optics. Or as they say in the US, "you snooze you lose"
In a previous post in this thread I used the Zeiss cinema lenses to point to where their true interests actually lie. And even earlier in the thread, pointing out that none of the shills and apologists for the ZX1 had actually purchased the camera, I suggested that to understand what a person truly believes one must pay attention not to their words but rather to their actions. The same applies to organisations. Zeiss’s actions regarding mirrorless lenses speak for themselves. No new mirrorless lenses for nearly three years => there is no future for new Carl Zeiss optics for mirrorless mounts.
p.48 #19 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
Honestly, as a long time RX1Rii user, this looks like a pretty good replacement. It fixes many of RX's issues such as horrendous battery. I like how EVF is not a popup. I wish Zeiss would weather seal it, but it's not weather sealed. The whole package looks pretty slick. A friend and I both own the RX, and we both wish we can edit and share photos on the fly.
p.48 #20 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera
gordec wrote:
Honestly, as a long time RX1Rii user, this looks like a pretty good replacement. It fixes many of RX's issues such as horrendous battery. I like how EVF is not a popup. I wish Zeiss would weather seal it, but it's not weather sealed. The whole package looks pretty slick. A friend and I both own the RX, and we both wish we can edit and share photos on the fly.
I’m sure many of us will be interested in your opinions regarding the ZX1 you purchase.
The kind of rendering you’re talking about is a little bit more classic zeiss, and specifically reminds me of the CY line which I adore. But for modern highly corrected glass, I do think the RX1 has the best marriage it technical IQ + rendering. Somehow it’s still a reference lens for many despite how old is.