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Archive 2017 · Leica 'M10"

zhangyue
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p.22 #1 · Leica 'M10"

Charle, I like what you get from your M9, and I never feel you are overprocessing file. Your don't rising contrast much in your images, they looks very neutral to my eyes, so I am surprised you were turn on by high contrast file

On the contrary, I am guilty for rising contrast and clarity sometime based on scene.
Anyway, I want like M10 as I preordered it but if there is any special other than high ISO capability I just haven't seen it based on what I see so far.

uhoh7 wrote:
You are a buzz kill specialist

and I know how jaded your eye is....the anti-Huff

You never liked anything Leica anyway. I'd be shocked if you had the slightest awareness of what I'm talking about: not that there any exceptional value in my own taste. It's different. Always has been. Which is one thing which makes interaction interesting. There are plenty of people with other taste and other priorities. Luckily I'm not worried about what other people like, just what I like.

You have your very nice muted overcast style, extremely well executed and I instantly can tell one of...Show more →

Feb 01, 2017 at 05:42 PM

Alpha_Geist
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p.22 #2 · Leica 'M10"

Question...how much different was the SL compared to the 240 if the SL was used with the same lenses in the same conditions at the protest Ashwin documented? I say SL because the M10 is likely closer to the SL's sensor than the 240's sensor.

Likely? Not much?

I see the M10 as a more of a refinement or evolution than a revolution compared to the 240. What is seen in Ashwin's photos isn't vastly different than what the 240 would be capable of. At least in those conditions. High ISO performance is another matter and we don't know how Ashwin PP'd the M10 photos he posted on Flickr. I'm mainly surprised that his photos capped out at ISO 3200. The photos are nice, but not anything we haven't already seen.

For me, the photos that stood out were because of the lenses used (character) and the distance to the subject(s).

Feb 01, 2017 at 06:15 PM

rscheffler
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p.22 #3 · Leica 'M10"

Michael, I think we agree, just how we wrote our initial comments might not quite seem that way. I agree based on Ashwin's photos and what I saw playing with the DPR M10 DNGs, it feels very close to the M240's files. I wouldn't buy the M10 based on any kind of Leica marketing about color. The ISO performance improvement might be tempting, but that alone still isn't enough for me.

I would like to see side by side M240 vs. M10 portraits to better judge what, if any, difference in skin tone rendering exists.

Maybe one of you early adopters can do this for the rest of us? Ideally in clean light (midday sun, or bright overcast) at low ISO to offer a baseline for best case scenario. Then throw in a higher ISO artificial light comparison... maybe under fluorescent since those often make blood vessels near the skin's surface stand out more. Thanks in advance.

Skin tone is the area I have the most difficulty with the M240 because it (and previous Leicas) have the tendency to accentuate ruddy skin and seemingly enhance uneven skin coloration. I find this is significantly less of a problem with my Canon cameras, particularly the 1DXII with the latest Canon sensor design, CFA, etc. and assume it's also the case with the 5DIV, 80D, M5... Even before those cameras my Canon files were easier to tweak for pleasing skin than those from the M240 or M9.

Feb 01, 2017 at 06:47 PM

JonPB
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p.22 #4 · Leica 'M10"

Looking at M10 images, especially in Capture One without a camera-specific color profile, has shown me that I've developed a taste for the M9's colors. That is to say: I don't normally shoot in color, but when I do, I want to be able to taste the chroma. Maybe I should forget the M10 in favor of an M7 and brick of slide film.

Otherwise, the noise pattern on the M10 at high sensitivity appears quite a lot tighter than the M240. I like that.

Mostly, though, I like the usability improvements. I suspect the day I look through the viewfinder is the day I start seriously gathering the necessary funds.

Cheers,
Jon

Feb 01, 2017 at 07:39 PM

rscheffler
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p.22 #5 · Leica 'M10"

Nah, you just have to set contrast to +20-30, clip the blacks and boost vibrancy or saturation. Flat out of camera images are typical of wider dynamic range sensors.

Feb 01, 2017 at 08:15 PM

adamdewilde
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p.22 #6 · Leica 'M10"

rscheffler wrote:
Nah, you just have to set contrast to +20-30, clip the blacks and boost vibrancy or saturation. Flat out of camera images are typical of wider dynamic range sensors.

I do something along those lines on import of any M-D file... It's preset automatically now in LR.
Can be a bit more subtle though since the 50APO is a contrasty lens in most cases.

Feb 02, 2017 at 10:52 AM

adamdewilde
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p.22 #7 · Leica 'M10"

JonPB wrote:
Looking at M10 images, especially in Capture One without a camera-specific color profile, has shown me that I've developed a taste for the M9's colors. That is to say: I don't normally shoot in color, but when I do, I want to be able to taste the chroma. Maybe I should forget the M10 in favor of an M7 and brick of slide film.

Otherwise, the noise pattern on the M10 at high sensitivity appears quite a lot tighter than the M240. I like that.

Mostly, though, I like the usability improvements. I suspect the day I look through the viewfinder is...Show more →

Viewfinder is almost visibly different. But not really in the magnification, more in the fact that it's physically slightly bigger. But honestly I know anyone who buys the M10 will praise it like it's the best thing ever.. It's really not IMHO. Though I can admit that it MIGHT make it easier to focus... I'm still not convinced though I'd have to use it for a week or something before I could honestly say. And even though the M10 is physically smaller than the M-D. The lack of the buttons/screen on the M-D makes it feel somehow smaller in hand. I played with it again, this time for a bit longer than the last because I had some time to kill while waiting for the wife. Still not really sure I want to go out and shoot photos with it. But temptation might get the better of me.

I don't want to get flamed for this (though on here I probably won't).. But for some reason the M10 feels cheaper in the hand than the M246 (since the finish is the same, I compare the two). Maybe it's the weight? But I REALLY love the matte like finish. I wish the M-D had the same finish. I've always been a fan of the M246 finish.

To put it bluntly. The M9 to M240 was a giant leap (if you remove yourself from the CMOS CCD debate). The M240 to the M10 is a side step. At the very least you're getting a thinner/lighter body (a lot of people asked for this). You're getting a better EVF and better LV in general (I tested this). You're getting a maybe slightly better sensor as far as noise is concern (would have to shoot with it to tell, not sure I want to).

You're giving up video (if the video in the M was good, I wouldn't see a reason why not to use it. I use the video function on my SL more than I use the photo function now. Though My M-D doesn't shoot video either). You're also giving up battery life. And personal preference (maybe) but you're giving up an easy way to switch the ISO for a gimmicky way to switch the ISO.

All in all, I wouldn't mind a M-D version of this camera if I could get along with the sensor/colours. On the topic of colors, I have still not seen any images on the internet that has me wanting to overpay to get a M10 early, or at all.

Feb 02, 2017 at 11:09 AM

flash
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p.22 #8 · Leica 'M10"

Interesting, because I feel the opposite. The M10 announcement and specs gave me little interest in buying one because it all seemed so incremental. And I'm one of the few that's perfectly happy with the thickness of the type 240. I don't use the video but I don't mind that it's there. However, yesterday I put my order in.

I find the "incremental" changes add up to a noticeably better camera, for me. I still don't care about the size, only that it'll take my Thumbie attachment, which it will. DR improvements are always welcome.

I tend to favour slightly longer lenses. 50, 75, 90 and 135. I saw no difference with the 50. But with the 90 and 135 my focus rate improved noticeably. I repeated this each time with three visits to the store so I'm not imagining it. My most used wide is a 24 and the slightly larger RF means I need an accessory finder a bit less. It's a tad faster in operation than my M-P.

I currently have two type 240's but since the SL don't need both. So selling both will certainly cover the cost of the M10 plus some change. But even if I just sold my M-P and paid the upgrade price, for me it would be worth the differences. A bunch of subtle differences have made a better experience, overall.

The downside is the battery life.

Gordon

p.s.

I agree with Adam on the initial appearance. I though it felt a bit cheaper as well. Not so much now after handling it more.

Feb 02, 2017 at 02:53 PM

JonPB
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p.22 #9 · Leica 'M10"

From what I've seen, high sensitivity noise from the M10 is substantially better than the M240 simply for lack of banding in the 3200-6400 region. ISO 5,000 is a critical number for me, as it allows f/1.4 & 1/60s shooting in urban nighttime light, which is what I've got to work with for a surprising number of my walks.

That said, I'm also considering an upgrade from the M9. So, an M10 that does ISO 6400 fairly well, though not as well as the Monochrom I have; or, an M246, and simply forgo color; or, keep calm and carry on with what I've got.

But I also still shoot my R zoom lenses on the M9 platform, so live view would be a huge upgrade. And I do this despite having a perfectly serviceable A7 II on my shelf. Take those behaviors together and you'll see that my camera buying and using decisions should not be considered rational in the least.

Cheers,
Jon

Feb 02, 2017 at 06:50 PM

uhoh7
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p.22 #10 · Leica 'M10"

zhangyue wrote:
Charle, I like what you get from your M9, and I never feel you are overprocessing file. Your don't rising contrast much in your images, they looks very neutral to my eyes, so I am surprised you were turn on by high contrast file

Check out some of these, which are less flashy in the main.

50 Lux ASPH

Here on the M10

Well that one could be the pre-asph, or something just with that profile, as "ASPH" is omitted from EXIF, and it kind of looks like the old one.

This really looks like ASPH 50

I like the look of that, maybe the Lux is back

Another from him

Here he is w/ 28 cron

Again with the Lux ASPH 50

Last excepted, Chris looks to be staying quite calm with the editing, and I'm thinking these might not be far off OOC, based on other shots I've been seeing, though Jono is more in the direction of Ashwin.

The last shot is the Jono/Ashwin take which is a bit more cartoonish than M9, but not like the french guy was doing with the APO on the beach. But, the previous shots linked in this post could have come from a Leica M9, no (as Derek is basically saying)? Shirokuro, who shot the first, is also looking much more similar to M9 than Jono or Ashwin (this is not to dis them, but just contrasting)

I'm wondering who is more OOC. Of course, with M9 as you push and pull in LR saturation starts happening. I often drop it. I think they worked alot on the newer lenses profiles: FLE, and Lux ASPH, and maybe the cron too, Haha will they have a separate profile for v2 28 cron?

sebboh wrote:
i like the images and i like leica, i just don't know what you see in them that is exceeds what your m9 would do with the same lenses and scene? should i be pixel peeping?

my style might be less overcast if i lived someplace less overcast.

i am quite jaded though.

you like the lenses. I don't think M9 does the Ashwin look very easy (his night FLE and indoor WATE). Those are some seriously rich shots, the WATE one is a good example, but not every thing is like that. But those are in the evening and indoors, so I could be confusing that aspect.

For comparison sake M9:

L1030861 by unoh7, on Flickr

M9 is seriously kodachrome, no doubt about it, and here it's close to the edge.

There is something different. Above I have no ISO issues. Well it will be fun to watch and see how it plays out. The first RAWS are beta in some ways, according to some guys who have looked. And LR has new version too, which some at LUF are saying is different. Basically I don't think we have a good idea yet of the camera profile and how it responds to editing.

There are tons of shots that do not stand out, but people are just clicking alot. My view is always evolving anyway, but I think Ashwin points to a place the M10 can go, where I don't think my camera can. It doesn't mean everybody, even me is after it, but it's almost like the A7rii over the A7. There is a color tonality difference, which can really be pushed: that's my current theory

Feb 02, 2017 at 07:32 PM

davewolfs
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p.22 #11 · Leica 'M10"

Is the SL still on the radar?

Steve Spencer wrote:
No, I decided to cancel my pre-order of the X1D and I have pre-ordered the Fuji GFX. I am still going to use a number of Hassy H lenses with it, so in the next generation if Hassy stays with the X1D and works the bugs out I might well get it. I love the feel of the camera, I just have no confidence they will work out the bugs and have a functioning firmware any time in the near future. I am also ordering the M10, which will be my travel camera and when I need or want...Show more →

Feb 02, 2017 at 09:04 PM

Mitch Alland
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p.22 #12 · Leica 'M10"

uhoh7 wrote:
.
...M9 is seriously kodachrome, no doubt about it, and here it's close to the edge...

Charlie - That is certainly true, always, in your masterful use of M9 colors.

The impression I have of the M10 is that operationally it�s night and day from the M9, and feels like the Leica M that we all wanted when the M8 was released. From a friend that has had one for a week, I get the impression that with a few adjustments in Lightroom one can get pretty close to the M9 look � though he thinks that there is still something inexplicably special about that look. He feels that, compared to the M9, the M10 sensor is almost too good, in that it can have something of a homogenizing effect. The M9 was a challenge, especially in low light, but sometimes challenges pay off in better images, like using film. Probably with the M10 one may have to "rough up" the image somewhat. The M10 B&W conversions look very good, though it seems that the MM is better, but again, depending on post-processing, it could really be splitting hairs.
_______________
Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

Feb 02, 2017 at 09:34 PM

adamdewilde
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p.22 #13 · Leica 'M10"

flash wrote:
Interesting, because I feel the opposite. The M10 announcement and specs gave me little interest in buying one because it all seemed so incremental. And I'm one of the few that's perfectly happy with the thickness of the type 240. I don't use the video but I don't mind that it's there. However, yesterday I put my order in.

I find the "incremental" changes add up to a noticeably better camera, for me. I still don't care about the size, only that it'll take my Thumbie attachment, which it will. DR improvements are always welcome.

I tend to favour slightly longer lenses....Show more →

Leica also has their own thumbs up clone now. The finish matches the M10, and although I've never really cared for the thumbs up... It's kinda cool, they did a good job. But yes, I noticed that Leica's thumbs up almost fits my M-D perfectly (slightly less good fit than on the M10). So I guess that is a plus, since your M240 thumbs up will fit the M10.

Yes the cheaper feel was/is probably just because of the reduced weight.

Feb 02, 2017 at 09:36 PM

sebboh
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p.22 #14 · Leica 'M10"

uhoh7 wrote:
Check out some of these, which are less flashy in the main.

50 Lux ASPH

Here on the M10

Well that one could be the pre-asph, or something just with that profile, as "ASPH" is omitted from EXIF, and it kind of looks like the old one.

pretty sure that is zm 50/1.5 sonnar by the bokeh.

Feb 02, 2017 at 11:42 PM

davewolfs
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p.22 #15 · Leica 'M10"

Another thing re Fuji. I'm not sure I'm convinced how much of a difference one will get shooting over something like a D810.

I need to head over to my local Leica and play with this M10.

Feb 03, 2017 at 12:09 AM

flash
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p.22 #16 · Leica 'M10"

adamdewilde wrote:
Leica also has their own thumbs up clone now. The finish matches the M10, and although I've never really cared for the thumbs up... It's kinda cool, they did a good job. But yes, I noticed that Leica's thumbs up almost fits my M-D perfectly (slightly less good fit than on the M10). So I guess that is a plus, since your M240 thumbs up will fit the M10.

Yes the cheaper feel was/is probably just because of the reduced weight.

Thumbs Up and the Thumbie are quite different. The Thumbie, which I've used since the M9, doesn't use the hotshoe. I use the hotshoe regularly for an EVF or small flash. A Thumbs Up is useless to me.

Gordon

Feb 03, 2017 at 12:13 AM

rscheffler
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p.22 #17 · Leica 'M10"

uhoh7 wrote:
Check out some of these, which are less flashy in the main.

50 Lux ASPH

Here on the M10

Well that one could be the pre-asph, or something just with that profile, as "ASPH" is omitted from EXIF, and it kind of looks like the old one.

sebboh wrote:
pretty sure that is zm 50/1.5 sonnar by the bokeh.

The bokeh fringing... and general lack of sharpness at full-rez.

Oh, and that photo is also in a 50/1.5 Sonnar group... so must be.

Feb 03, 2017 at 12:56 AM

sebboh
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p.22 #18 · Leica 'M10"

rscheffler wrote:
The bokeh fringing... and general lack of sharpness at full-rez.

Oh, and that photo is also in a 50/1.5 Sonnar group... so must be.

also, bokeh circles are round and open out toward the corners. the lux pre-asph has cats-eye bokeh "circles" towards the corners.

Feb 03, 2017 at 01:25 AM

uhoh7
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p.22 #19 · Leica 'M10"

Here is Sonnar 50/1.5 for sure, had has same profile

So likely Derek is right.

Feb 03, 2017 at 01:30 AM

airfrogusmc
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p.22 #20 · Leica 'M10"

frezeiss wrote:
Thanks For the detailed reply, Steve.

My main goal was to try rangefinder for my documentary stuff and having that leica colors that should be nice too (love those M9 colors best). I dont think the 240 penalties bother me much, lets see if I could find a good deal for the 240/246.

The M10 is like $7500 in where I live, couldnt justify that ):

Have you considered an M 262? Love mine.

Feb 03, 2017 at 07:39 AM

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