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Archive 2017 · Leica 'M10"

  
 
anselwannab
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p.1 #1 · Leica 'M10"


Surprised we didn't have a thread on this.

http://leicarumors.com/2016/12/16/leica-m10-additional-information.aspx/

Slimer, no video seem to be the big 'news'. Announcement later this month.

It seems that the name will be 'M10", which is odd since the M (Type 240) followed the M9. Did they want to go back to the Mnumber naming for consistency, or I wonder if they are getting ready to split the line along 'M types' and Mnumbers?? Why didn't they just 'go to 11'?

There might also be a true zoom M mount lens? An EVF in the future? An SL grade viewfinder add on?

If it is smaller and the next Fuji X100 doesn't have a MF/AF like the Leica Q, I might just start saving for a monochrom version of this camera.



Jan 05, 2017 at 12:49 AM
rscheffler
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p.1 #2 · Leica 'M10"


From the images of the supposed design posted/leaked so far, I hate to say, I'm not all that enamored by it.

For me to be interested, the camera would need to have considerably improved electronic performance/capability over the M240. Live view and EVF performance along the lines of the SL, for one. Deeper, faster buffer. Somewhat higher fps rate. No banding and weird black point clipping resulting the green shadow shift of the M240. Also no reduction in buffer depth and fps rate at higher ISOs. An option to turn off dark frame subtraction would also be welcome.

I don't know why they're flip-flopping on the numbering scheme. I suspect it will still receive a 'Typ' classification.

As for it being smaller... I think most complaints were about the current design being a bit too thick. So maybe there will be some slimming, but I wouldn't expect the camera to change much in the other two dimensions. IMO, the current size is just about right for my average size hands.



Jan 05, 2017 at 02:43 AM
joakim
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p.1 #3 · Leica 'M10"


It is of course impossible to know why they are using the old name scheme for this camera, will they split the M-line into two or was the current Typ naming a failure and they are reverting back to the old?

I don't mind a slightly thinner body but I agree with Ron that the current size is just fine. One thing I didn't see on the linked page but I am sure I've seen mentioned elsewhere is that the viewfinder will be improved which is welcome if it is true since it's one of the most important parts of the M camera in my opinion.

For colour I am still on the M9 so I am looking forward to find out what the M10 is all about, if I don't like it this might be a great opportunity to pick up a used M, M-P or M-262 instead.



Jan 05, 2017 at 03:34 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #4 · Leica 'M10"


Sounds to me that Leica received a lot of complaints and questions from consumers about the naming of the M9 successor which was the arbitrary M-240. I found it very confusing, too. If Leica now names the new model in the old nomenclature as M10, it is more clear and more in line with the rest of the M line.


Jan 05, 2017 at 07:20 AM
CVickery
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p.1 #5 · Leica 'M10"


rscheffler wrote:
From the images of the supposed design posted/leaked so far, I hate to say, I'm not all that enamored by it.

For me to be interested, the camera would need to have considerably improved electronic performance/capability over the M240. Live view and EVF performance along the lines of the SL, for one. Deeper, faster buffer. Somewhat higher fps rate. No banding and weird black point clipping resulting the green shadow shift of the M240. Also no reduction in buffer depth and fps rate at higher ISOs. An option to turn off dark frame subtraction would also be welcome.

I don't know why
...Show more

+1



Jan 05, 2017 at 07:48 AM
f.hayek
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p.1 #6 · Leica 'M10"


if it does carry a new sensor, then why not name it the M11? Skipping over the M240 In this renewed sequence makes it appear like a failed stepchild or a misbegotten idea.
Like the M5 or Hillary Clinton.



Jan 05, 2017 at 07:52 AM
airfrogusmc
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p.1 #7 · Leica 'M10"


f.hayek wrote:
if it does carry a new sensor, then why not name it the M11? Skipping over the M240 In this renewed sequence makes it appear like a failed stepchild or a misbegotten idea.
Like the M5 or Hillary Clinton.


Leica M is a true alternative and I really don't get why anyone would need or want video on a rangefinder. In my opinion, the best Leica Ms are the ones with the least amount of automation. Those are the ones that are the true alternatives to the rest of the digital cameras out there.

I read this piece on the Leica blog and I couldn't agree more.

Answer to 4th question
http://blog.leica-camera.com/2016/11/02/fine-art-portraiture-leica-m-typ-262/




Jan 05, 2017 at 08:31 AM
Planetwide
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p.1 #8 · Leica 'M10"


This is just my take. But with the introduction of the SL, Leica can now return the M to its roots, albeit digital ones. I am thinking that the M10 will be a smaller, lighter M with the current SL sensor. Which is better than the current M240 sensor in almost every way.

Video and other functions will probably be in the domain of the SL. It is possible for Leica to develop another MXXX cased upon the guts of the next generation SL. They could then announce both at the same time.




Jan 05, 2017 at 08:42 AM
JonPB
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p.1 #9 · Leica 'M10"


I think it makes sense, given historical perspective.

Digitizing anything makes lots of new things possible. With the M 240, Leica tried to make an M camera the center of a one-size-fits-all system. (It seems they even developed a zoom that might have been designed for live view rather than optical finder; that design appears to have been dropped from the M system to become the X-Vario.) I think they envisioned a platform that could rapidly increment, so dropping numbers made sense. However, the reality of economics and the M customer base proved this to be a bad idea. So, Leica developed the SL as a true one-size-fits-all platform, and the 262 seems like Leica saying, "well, we had a few good things in this camera, but we're sorry for being distracted by digital glitter, so here's the camera we should have released back in 2012."

I suspect the next version -- whether called M10 or not -- will reflect a better understanding of how the M platform survived the rise of SLRs, zooms, plastic cameras, autofocus, etc., etc.

Personally, I like having live view as a secondary option in my primary camera, but I won't be surprised if Leica drops it and says, "buy an SL if you really want that." Well, no. I'll likely buy a used M when I need to replace my M9. But that's just me.

Cheers,
Jon



Jan 05, 2017 at 09:25 AM
joakim
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p.1 #10 · Leica 'M10"


airfrogusmc wrote:
Leica M is a true alternative and I really don't get why anyone would need or want video on a rangefinder. In my opinion, the best Leica Ms are the ones with the least amount of automation. Those are the ones that are the true alternatives to the rest of the digital cameras out there.

I read this piece on the Leica blog and I couldn't agree more.

Answer to 4th question
http://blog.leica-camera.com/2016/11/02/fine-art-portraiture-leica-m-typ-262/



Thanks for the link to an interesting article.



Jan 05, 2017 at 10:50 AM
Tobin28
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p.1 #11 · Leica 'M10"


If it is the size of a M7 or a little bigger......take my money.




Jan 05, 2017 at 11:01 AM
Lee Saxon
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p.1 #12 · Leica 'M10"


rscheffler wrote:
For me to be interested, the camera would need to have considerably improved electronic performance/capability over the M240. Live view and EVF performance along the lines of the SL, for one. Deeper, faster buffer. Somewhat higher fps rate. No banding and weird black point clipping resulting the green shadow shift of the M240. Also no reduction in buffer depth and fps rate at higher ISOs. An option to turn off dark frame subtraction would also be welcome.


Thank you for posting this to my great relief. I know it doesn't impact my life and I shouldn't care, but the Leica RDF / people willing to pay literally anything for literally anything Leica releases drives me insane.

retrofocus wrote:
If Leica now names the new model in the old nomenclature as M10, it is more clear and more in line with the rest of the M line.


Totally disagree. I mean, yes, the numberless thing didn't work and going back to the old nomenclature is smart. But only if they use the right number. This is the M11. There already was an M10, even though they didn't use the name "M10." Naming the M11 "M10" is, to me, arguably even more confusing than naming the M10 "M [240]."

But I guess since the M3 came out before the M2 which came out before the M1, I shouldn't be too surprised.




Jan 05, 2017 at 11:35 AM
rscheffler
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p.1 #13 · Leica 'M10"


Andrew Gough wrote:
This is just my take. But with the introduction of the SL, Leica can now return the M to its roots, albeit digital ones. I am thinking that the M10 will be a smaller, lighter M with the current SL sensor. Which is better than the current M240 sensor in almost every way.

Video and other functions will probably be in the domain of the SL. It is possible for Leica to develop another MXXX cased upon the guts of the next generation SL. They could then announce both at the same time.



---------------------------------------------

JonPB wrote:
I think it makes sense, given historical perspective.

Digitizing anything makes lots of new things possible. With the M 240, Leica tried to make an M camera the center of a one-size-fits-all system. (It seems they even developed a zoom that might have been designed for live view rather than optical finder; that design appears to have been dropped from the M system to become the X-Vario.) I think they envisioned a platform that could rapidly increment, so dropping numbers made sense. However, the reality of economics and the M customer base proved this to be a bad idea. So, Leica
...Show more

I can see that the M240 may have been a feature-set stop-gap until the SL arrived, but I hope Leica does not completely revoke the M240's 'non-traditional' features in the future M. OK, I could do without video, but I too very much like and use live view in the M240 when it is relevant to what I'm shooting. I hope they continue with the option of a 'pure' digital M in addition to a 'mainstream' digital M.

I am very happy with the M system in general (other than service & support) and don't want to buy an SL for 'more advanced' features that are already in the M240, but not fully refined. I already have a Canon system that is more than capable in that regard. I shoot the M system for a number of reasons - RF, quality, size, enjoyment... the M240's expanded feature set vs. the M9 makes it more an all-rounder for my needs, which is why I bought it. Often I no longer even bring the DSLR system, whereas I did when I shot the M9.



Jan 05, 2017 at 12:02 PM
retrofocus
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p.1 #14 · Leica 'M10"


Lee Saxon wrote:
Totally disagree. I mean, yes, the numberless thing didn't work and going back to the old nomenclature is smart. But only if they use the right number. This is the M11. There already was an M10, even though they didn't use the name "M10." Naming the M11 "M10" is, to me, arguably even more confusing than naming the M10 "M [240]."

But I guess since the M3 came out before the M2 which came out before the M1, I shouldn't be too surprised.



Yes, I agree, when I wrote my post above (I was considering this but didn't want to go into a hairsplitting mode ). Named M11, people might ask what was M10 (and since Leica never wanted to use the M10 name for the M240 this makes it a bit cumbersome) - named M10, yes, it pretty much overlooks the M240 in between. So I guess there has to be a compromise somewhere .

In the end we can all agree in one thing - no matter which name the new camera might get, it will be (too) expensive.



Jan 05, 2017 at 12:30 PM
zhangyue
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p.1 #15 · Leica 'M10"


It need have LV to have my money. I don't use it most of the time. but to make a camera I bring everywhere, this is a must feature. Or I have to left it out for landscape/travel trip.

It would be nice to remove the mandatory noise reduction, it is super annoy. I hate it on every Leica camera.

I don't care anything else. The M240 is pretty much meet my goal on everything for a rangefinder. (Sure wish it has Sony's DR, and wish it has responsive EVF without lag)



Jan 05, 2017 at 12:39 PM
flash
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p.1 #16 · Leica 'M10"


zhangyue wrote:
It need have LV to have my money. I don't use it most of the time. but to make a camera I bring everywhere, this is a must feature. Or I have to left it out for landscape/travel trip.

It would be nice to remove the mandatory noise reduction, it is super annoy. I hate it on every Leica camera.

I don't care anything else. The M240 is pretty much meet my goal on everything for a rangefinder. (Sure wish it has Sony's DR, and wish it has responsive EVF without lag)


+1 a hundred times.

Mandatory LENR is the Devils work.

I don't really care about the size. It'd be nice if it were lighter though. Apparently it'll have the TL EVF for live view so hopefully that'll give us GPS as well.

But the reality, for me, is, it'll have to be something incredible for me to bite. The SL has almost entirely replaced the M line. Apart from a flippy screen, which I can get using the app the SL is physically everything I need. If they make a plus 40 MP version in the future I'm done.

The current M's limitations on exposure times already makes me think Leica have issues with heat dissipation. So making the thing slimmer doesn't automatically make me think it's a good idea. If it has a rear screen then it'll have a protruding mount so it won't be that much thinner in reality. And I stick a thumbie on the thing anyway.

Make me an M-D but one that takes the TL EVF and I'm sold. I don't need a rear screen if I can do all it's functions via the EVF. Improve the buffer clearance, long exposures and mandatory LENR and I'm in. I want the shutter speed visible in the VF in manual mode for fricks sake! ISO via a dial rather than a multiple menu push. Movable magnified point in the EVF for off centre focusing.

I have a real soft spot for the M and I'll be tempted no matter what. But the SL is so good that a new M will have to tick some serious boxes to make me even consider an upgrade.

Gordon



Jan 05, 2017 at 02:36 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.1 #17 · Leica 'M10"


If it has LV, EVF etc I will wait and hope that they release cameras like the M-E and M 262 a year or so later.


Jan 05, 2017 at 03:02 PM
Lee Saxon
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p.1 #18 · Leica 'M10"


zhangyue wrote:
It need have LV to have my money.


airfrogusmc wrote:
If it has LV, EVF etc I will wait


Hysterical.




Jan 05, 2017 at 05:13 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.1 #19 · Leica 'M10"


Nice to have choices. I own both the M-E and the M 262. Love'm both. I am glad I waited for the 262. Lighter, quieter and a much smaller more manageable menu.


Jan 05, 2017 at 05:16 PM
naturephoto1
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p.1 #20 · Leica 'M10"


Lee Saxon wrote:
Hysterical.



Live View and EVF elliminates the need for separate Viewfinders unless someone wants to use them for 24mm and wider Wide Angle RF lenses with the camera's built in RF.

Rich



Jan 05, 2017 at 05:17 PM
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