edwardkaraa wrote:
I had an SL
Now I have an M262.
That's what I like about Leica. It offers the same model with different flavors
Gee you guys keep changing camera bodies.
Me, I still have my Sony A7r which was modified to an A7rM V3 and now a second A7r stock. But, I do have 4 M mount lenses that I could put onto a Leica Body. Just wish they had more MP. But, I can use my A7r cameras with my Cambo Actus and regain much of my capabilities of my 4" X 5" View cameras.
rscheffler wrote:
I am very happy with the M system in general (other than service & support)...
+1. "Introducing the new M, featuring customer service and repairs efficient enough so you don't need to buy two unless you want to!"
Even if I didn't shoot Leica, I'd still be rather amused by their seemingly attention-deficit product management, so I'm always curious to see what they come up with next. It won't be what I expect, it probably won't be what I want, but it'll be well done and make some folks very happy.
Leica may run two M lines. The M8, M9, M10 etc line, which is kept as a classic rangefinder, and a M 'Type XXX' line, that incorporates the latest tech wizardry.
Or, as suggested above, the other lines such as the SL take that focus.
Either would work for me, I want a thinner, lighter, more basic Leica M10.
AshNZ wrote:
Leica may run two M lines. The M8, M9, M10 etc line, which is kept as a classic rangefinder, and a M 'Type XXX' line, that incorporates the latest tech wizardry.
Or, as suggested above, the other lines such as the SL take that focus.
Either would work for me, I want a thinner, lighter, more basic Leica M10.
I do agree with this in principal. The only issue I personally have with this is that the price for a M10 will cost far more than any hyper-technologically advanced Sony mirrorless FF camera. And here is the issue: I wouldn't mind to have a M10 with less technological features, but I don't want to pay a price for it which is far more than competitive mirrorless models with latest sensor technology for example - taking into account that the Leica brand name is always more expensive of course.
retrofocus wrote:
I do agree with this in principal. The only issue I personally have with this is that the price for a M10 will cost far more than any hyper-technologically advanced Sony mirrorless FF camera. And here is the issue: I wouldn't mind to have a M10 with less technological features, but I don't want to pay a price for it which is far more than competitive mirrorless models with latest sensor technology for example - taking into account that the Leica brand name is always more expensive of course.
Let me put it this way, the last Leica camera body that I purchased was my Leica R8 that I purchased brand new in 1998. However, since then I have purchased 6 Leica R lenses and 3 Leica M lenses. As nice as the Leica M land SL cameras are to operate, I do not find them cost effective enough and too restrictive for me and I have Sony A7r cameras which I use with all of my Leica R, Leica M. and other lenses. I find their lenses more important to me than the Leica camera bodies due to their capabilities and MP performance.
naturephoto1 wrote:
Let me put it this way, the last Leica camera body that I purchased was my Leica R8 that I purchased brand new in 1998. However, since then I have purchased 6 Leica R lenses and 3 Leica M lenses. As nice as the Leica M land SL cameras are to operate, I do not finde them cost effective enough and too restrictive for me and I have Sony A7r cameras which I use with all of my Leica R, Leica M. and other lenses. I find their lenses more important to me than the Leica camera bodies due to their capabilities and MP performance.
Rich, I am fully with you here. So far I vested in two used Leica M series film cameras which I love to use - but I got them for a "decent" price compared to digital M models. I think the cost effectiveness is something Leica will continue to struggle - on one hand Leica tries to stand out from the mass and wants to remain its collector and luxury brand name, on the other hand the market pressure is more and more forcing them to be competitive with other available technology out there. But also Sony FF mirrorless cameras have become quite excessively expensive especially when introduced. Still there is a gap to a new Leica M camera of several thousand dollars.
I was contemplating to get a used M9 which go for about $2600 currently - but for this amount, I could also get a more advanced used A7R II. I decided in the end to do neither and continue to use my A7R for digital for now. And I can shoot a lot of B&W film rolls to make up for $3K in price difference between a used Leica M monochrome and my M6.
In the digital era, maybe the only Leica to hit the price/performance ratio of the competition is the very niche Q (though of course still a very expensive camera). Otherwise, it's always a trade-off of intangibles vs. cutting edge feature sets, the latter of which Leica usually lags, at least in respect to electronics. Whether or not that is relevant will depend on each photographer's priorities.
As evidenced even in the small sampling of this thread, there are opposite directions of priority for what the next M should be. Given recent history, Leica will likely cater to a number of niches. Given low production volume, brand status, etc. pricing will remain a premium and out of the mainstream price/performance sweet spot.
My guess is the M will remain a design for spontaneous handheld on the go shooting. I.e. not super high resolution nor super cutting edge. It will be a continued refinement of the M240, M9, etc.
As far as I'm concerned, the Leica M is exactly what I need and want. No other digital camera has what I want, a small manual focus based camera with an optical viewfinder. If Leica ever decides to ditch the M series, I will probably buy an old Olympus OM-1 or quit this hobby altogether.
To me it looks like a digital M6. If so, it's going to be a hit, I think. The M6 footprint is iconic and I just don't think they can fail hitting that. Will be very interesting to see if it has ability to use a EVF and LV. They may have thrown out that stuff just to make it compact and light.
How will the sensor work? Actually not a simple question, because they might improve performance on several fronts. Does seem it will be 24mp. Anyway the M10 is done. We will see it and weigh in, but at this point it is what it is. A more interesting question: what is next?
As the original champion, to great derision, of the FF Nex, here is what I want, Mr Leica, not to replace the M10 but serve alongside it:
21st century "Barnack" Call it the Barnack "Apollo". Forget all tradition. Small as possible with ergonomic body to help in holding larger lenses. L-mount FF. The e-mount is 18mm, the L 19mm, so what? Techart Pro, that's what. Give the market a L to M AF adapter and another L to M CF adapter, and be sure to allow infinity adjustments on each so we can use the stops on M lenses. Tilt/touch screen. More MP. Find a good sensor which can do decent ISO. Perhaps offer several ssensor flavors. EVF with good aids. I will say it might be possible to use a RF with decent base in a smaller body. Certainly that should be considered, as a varient. Good batteries. 4K video.
Basically a small light technical back for M with every bell and whistle. Should not look anything like a M10, then that classic will be "safe".
Such a move would put Leicas back into many hands and find new ones. Lens sales would go up. The whole thing could be speced and built CL style, by Panasonic, or whoever. With M lenses to support it's small size and versatile output, the Barnack 21st would be a sensation
Go ahead, tell me all the reasons why this will never happen
uhoh7 wrote:
To me it looks like a digital M6. If so, it's going to be a hit, I think. The M6 footprint is iconic and I just don't think they can fail hitting that. Will be very interesting to see if it has ability to use a EVF and LV. They may have thrown out that stuff just to make it compact and light.
How will the sensor work? Actually not a simple question, because they might improve performance on several fronts. Does seem it will be 24mp. Anyway the M10 is done. We will see it and weigh in, but at this point it is what it is. A more interesting question: what is next?
As the original champion, to great derision, of the FF Nex, here is what I want, Mr Leica, not to replace the M10 but serve alongside it:
21st century "Barnack" Call it the Barnack "Apollo". Forget all tradition. Small as possible with ergonomic body to help in holding larger lenses. L-mount FF. The e-mount is 18mm, the L 19mm, so what? Techart Pro, that's what. Give the market a L to M AF adapter and another L to M CF adapter, and be sure to allow infinity adjustments on each so we can use the stops on M lenses. Tilt/touch screen. More MP. Find a good sensor which can do decent ISO. Perhaps offer several ssensor flavors. EVF with good aids. I will say it might be possible to use a RF with decent base in a smaller body. Certainly that should be considered, as a varient. Good batteries. 4K video.
Basically a small light technical back for M with every bell and whistle. Should not look anything like a M10, then that classic will be "safe".
Such a move would put Leicas back into many hands and find new ones. Lens sales would go up. The whole thing could be speced and built CL style, by Panasonic, or whoever. With M lenses to support it's small size and versatile output, the Barnack 21st would be a sensation
Go ahead, tell me all the reasons why this will never happen
Had to google what L-mount is - not familiar with Panasonic camera mounts. Why should this replace the proven M-mount? If this is still equipped with FF sensor, why changing the mount?
uhoh7 wrote:
To me it looks like a digital M6. If so, it's going to be a hit, I think. The M6 footprint is iconic and I just don't think they can fail hitting that. Will be very interesting to see if it has ability to use a EVF and LV. They may have thrown out that stuff just to make it compact and light.
How will the sensor work? Actually not a simple question, because they might improve performance on several fronts. Does seem it will be 24mp. Anyway the M10 is done. We will see it and weigh in, but at this point it is what it is. A more interesting question: what is next?
As the original champion, to great derision, of the FF Nex, here is what I want, Mr Leica, not to replace the M10 but serve alongside it:
21st century "Barnack" Call it the Barnack "Apollo". Forget all tradition. Small as possible with ergonomic body to help in holding larger lenses. L-mount FF. The e-mount is 18mm, the L 19mm, so what? Techart Pro, that's what. Give the market a L to M AF adapter and another L to M CF adapter, and be sure to allow infinity adjustments on each so we can use the stops on M lenses. Tilt/touch screen. More MP. Find a good sensor which can do decent ISO. Perhaps offer several ssensor flavors. EVF with good aids. I will say it might be possible to use a RF with decent base in a smaller body. Certainly that should be considered, as a varient. Good batteries. 4K video.
Basically a small light technical back for M with every bell and whistle. Should not look anything like a M10, then that classic will be "safe".
Such a move would put Leicas back into many hands and find new ones. Lens sales would go up. The whole thing could be speced and built CL style, by Panasonic, or whoever. With M lenses to support it's small size and versatile output, the Barnack 21st would be a sensation
Go ahead, tell me all the reasons why this will never happen
Charlie, I very much like that idea. I think the biggest obstacle is the sensor. If they use the sensor from the SL I don't think AF with M lenses will be possible. That would need on sensor phase detect AF and getting someone to make them a sensor with phase detect on sensor AF seems like a stretch. Still a modern Barnack is a great way to frame such a new camera and I think it could be a hit. The other main obstacle is price. I don't think they sell a lot of them unless the price is about $3,000 and I can't see that. I would expect it to be $6,000. So great idea, but I will be shocked if Leica does anything remotely like that.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Charlie, I very much like that idea... but I will be shocked if Leica does anything remotely like that.
haha, Well despite all my ra ra in advance I was shocked when the A7 was announced. And since the A7 project was cancelled twice, probably many in Sony were surprised too.
so I have some motion sickness...next somebody will tell me Hassie is making a MF camera again
Of course you are right, we can't hold our breath for the kind of vision which created the ur-Leica. But the 21st century Barnack could also be an opportunity for Panasonic to follow Sony's lead and take a step into the realm of serious cameras. They have all sorts of new sensor ideas, albeit no FF at the moment. However Sony has been an unpredictable supplier lately, abruptly terminating 16mp production for Fuji. Panny has been killing it in the super-zoom business, and a Barnack could be their GFX. Leica supervision and Panasonic production capabilities could go head to head with Sony, who is leaving plenty of room for competition with such high pricing. Leica could let Panny farm out a whole new native lens line for the barnack: fast zooms that could actually be smaller than DSLR cameras, since the Barnack must handle steep rays anyway. The minolta/leica history is a elary model of what could seriously steal the FF show: a truly compact FF that actually would shoot all the lenses (except sony) right at their limits. Panny has the patents and engineers to spec a 42mp sensor tommorrow if there was a will.
And on the more exclusive path, there is that new 8K Cmosis sensor, which is very expensive, but shows they can innovate pretty well. That route would push the Barnack way up in cost, I suppose, although there is nothing to say the body could not offer several flavors of sensor some much cheaper. The Techart pro works with A7ii, so why something similar with any 24mp sensor properly speed?
If anyone thinks such a contraptive system is unprecedented, they can look at the accessories which were made for the M system in the 1960s: especially the visoflex, with lenses to 800mm
You really don't have to make all those lenses, just make a tiny back to shoot the ones already out there and it will sell. I can't wait to try the techart pro with my 500/4E, to be honest.
What is undeniable is there remains a gigantic opportunity in the camera market. Fuji won't touch it because they are making a killing at APS-C, and the GFX will keep that safe. But if you watch what people have wanted to do with their Sonys, starting with the Nex-5, and how disappointed many are that many FE lenses are actually bigger than Canikon, you just can't miss the hole.
The biggest obstacle, a lens line, is totally obviated with a good jack of all trades design, which is small as possible. And the L mount is alot better than the E mount as the platform, because it is wider. Focus just on a great very small body with cutting edge adapters, and you won't have to make "challenge videos". Camera nuts around the world will make them for you.
