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Archive 2017 · Leica 'M10"

Steve Spencer
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p.21 #1 · Leica 'M10"

adamdewilde wrote:
Thanks. Are you still going full speed ahead with the X1D? I'd be curious to play with it again when the final firmware is out.

No, I decided to cancel my pre-order of the X1D and I have pre-ordered the Fuji GFX. I am still going to use a number of Hassy H lenses with it, so in the next generation if Hassy stays with the X1D and works the bugs out I might well get it. I love the feel of the camera, I just have no confidence they will work out the bugs and have a functioning firmware any time in the near future. I am also ordering the M10, which will be my travel camera and when I need or want something that is smaller and easier to carry. i had hoped the X1D could serve both roles, but I am probably better served with two systems and even though the two cameras is a huge cost I was able to pair down to a set of lenses I like and stay in budget.

Jan 31, 2017 at 12:47 AM

edwardkaraa
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p.21 #2 · Leica 'M10"

Color and vignetting correction are always off on my camera. Apart from that, Leica philosophy is to provide the user with as raw a file as possible. Sony does a lot of noise reduction before the file is written.

zhangyue wrote:
Edward, I thought Leica raw undergone more process with corner color correction. I don't know Sony bake anything in their raw file? Is this mentioned somewhere? I must have missed.

Jan 31, 2017 at 01:50 AM

genji
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p.21 #3 · Leica 'M10"

uhoh7 wrote:
First, no need to keep silent. Plenty of people, M240 users say this sort of thing. Funny though, there are also plenty of 240 users who went back to the M9. It has actually gained value in the last 8 months.

Second, if you are going by looking at in a store, or playing with it a day or two, don't pretend you know really know it. That takes several months, and there's no shortcut.

I don't pretend I really know the XT-2 well, but I do know enough that it's not for me, and maybe the M9 is not...Show more →

I regard Charlie's "Contemplation" as an exemplary portrait: composition, lighting, and emotion seamlessly combined. As I looked at it, I couldn't help thinking that a common response might be: "Well, assuming a certain level of technical proficiency, one could take this picture with almost any decent camera and lens." Except, I don't believe that's true. To my way of thinking, having a camera+lens that, in Charlie's words, "is a blast to use and takes pictures you love" puts you in a frame of mind (state of being, call it what you will) where good pictures beckon and plead to be taken. M6, M9, M240, M246, M-D, M10, A7, A7R, A7R II, X1D, GFX: they can all be great in the hands of someone who loves to hold them.

Jan 31, 2017 at 06:34 AM

adamdewilde
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p.21 #4 · Leica 'M10"

Steve Spencer wrote:
No, I decided to cancel my pre-order of the X1D and I have pre-ordered the Fuji GFX. I am still going to use a number of Hassy H lenses with it, so in the next generation if Hassy stays with the X1D and works the bugs out I might well get it. I love the feel of the camera, I just have no confidence they will work out the bugs and have a functioning firmware any time in the near future. I am also ordering the M10, which will be my travel camera and when I need or want...Show more →

Looks and ergonomics aside.. I honestly think Fuji will be the better choice here. The GFX will have good tech, and the lenses will be top notch. Not saying the H lenses aren't good, I've owned them and liked them, but you can adapt them to the GFX anyway. I'm just saying that I think the GFX will bridge the gap between DSLR/Mirrorless and Medium format a lot better than the X1D will (though the small size and smart ergonomics of the X1D will be hard to ignore when the next Gen comes around with better tech).

The M10 I'm going to wait a long time before considering.... Erm I hope I am anyway, I have a tendency to be irrational.
(Every time I look at images of the M10, I grab my M-D and play with it.)

Jan 31, 2017 at 07:15 AM

rscheffler
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p.21 #5 · Leica 'M10"

retrofocus wrote:
Okay, I kept silent for long, but I have to say something now regarding all your pro-M9 enthusiasm. I have no doubt that you enjoy and like the camera a lot. But....it is sooo outdated by now, and I did not at all like it when I just had a look at a used M9 in a camera store a few weeks ago. The M9 display is simply horrible, especially when zoomed in, practically close to unusable - my 5D MkII display is miles better here (and also from 2009). The viewfinder - horrible compared to my M6/M7 film cameras...Show more →

I think some pages back I said something similar. To me, using the M9 was like dealing with an early 2000s digital camera. You had to wait for it and image review was only a hint of what the full resolution files contained. I recall shooting with the original Canon 1D for ~3 years. Crappy LCD and without zoom. You had to have faith that focus was nailed on critical shots. The M9 was similar in that you had to get a feel for it, how the RF focusing worked, then just trust that your skill and the camera's calibration would align to get you the images you expected. You can't rush the M9. It will fight you in every way possible. Even the M240 would do this at times with the random lock-ups I had quite often early on (later firmware seemed to mostly fix this). It was in a way a love-hate relationship. Once I became comfortable with the M9 and its files, I loved a lot about it. But I hated its slowness. For me the M240 was a significant upgrade, even if image quality was generally a step sideways.

Adam, thanks for the gear update.

I vaguely remember my M240 vs. M9 28 Cron shootout.... The biggest difference I remember between the two with that lens was the character of the vignetting, which I think I liked better from the M9.

In any case, while the M9 files are unique (in a good way), particularly at ISO 160, I frequently felt I was waiting for the camera and at times fighting it (due to the slow card write and poor buffer performance). Depending on what I shoot, I often rely on quick short bursts. The M240 was a leap forward in this regard and 5fps with the M10 is only going to be better for my needs. I know some question the merits of a 5fps M. For me it's not so much a matter of shooting off 15 frames in a row. I don't think I'd ever do that with an M. Rather, it's the shot to shot speed and readiness of the camera for the next shot. I wouldn't complain if the M11 offered 10 or 15 fps.

It would just mean it would be ready that much sooner for the next shot.

frezeiss wrote:
Still considering to jump in to Leica in the near future but wondering whether it is better to get a used M240 with money leftover to upgrade my A7 to mk.3 or spring all resource for the M10.

Do you guys consider the M240 sensor to be equal to Sony's 24 MP? Is shadow lifting capabilities the same between them at below ISO 1000..

frezeiss wrote:
Competitive is enough for me, Colors were ok for me, saw your work and several others on the Leica thread. I just hope banding doesnt come easily with 1-2 stops of shadow pushing at ISO 200-400.

Pretty much agree with what Edward, Steve, Joe and others have stated. I'll add that from my experience, 'gently' pushing lower ISO M240 files a couple stops is not a problem in respect to banding. As ISO increases, the amount you can push before you run into pattern banding decreases where IMO at ISO 3200 you need to be precise with exposure. But I've read (I believe from Edward) that the degree of high ISO pattern banding is possibly camera to camera dependent due to hardware 'fluctuations' and that my camera is one of those exhibiting some banding at 3200+.

IMO, the biggest catch to pushing M240 files below ISO 1250 is the tendency for shadow tones to reveal a green tint. At ISO 200 you have to push more than a couple stops to really see it, but it becomes more noticeable with less push as the ISO increases. The M240 appears to have an internal processing change between ISO 1000 and 1250. At 1250 and higher I don't notice the green shift.

A good write-up about the green shadow shift problem is available from Jim Kasson.

He describes a LR plug-in that addresses the green shadows problem, but the link to that website appears to be dead, so not sure what the deal is with the plug-in�s author. In any case, I�m sure one of us here could scrounge it up from our system folders. For my workflow, it just adds one step. After culling images from a shoot, I send all the 'keepers' through the plug-in, which creates a new set of DNGs. I then process these DNGs. You definitely don't have to put M240 files through the plug-in and get great results if you're not pushing them really hard in post.

Jan 31, 2017 at 08:40 AM

edwardkaraa
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p.21 #6 · Leica 'M10"

Regarding banding, indeed it seems to vary significantly. My current M262 is excellent in this regard, but I'm not sure if hardware interference has been improved by Leica or is it just another copy variation case.

Jan 31, 2017 at 09:44 AM

adamdewilde
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p.21 #7 · Leica 'M10"

I've had roughly 16+ M240 type cameras in total (various reasons, I'd have to check my notes for the exact amount of bodies I've owned, but I know more than 14 passed through my hands).. A few of them didn't have high iso banding at all... Even when pushed to beyond 12500. Though I did notice dead pixels that were mapped out would show up again. But a quick fix unlike banding.

Yes, green pushed shadows were a problem with all units I owned.

No idea if my M-D has banding or green shadows, don't really use M cameras to the extreme anymore. So couldn't comment on your theory Edward about the M262 being better... Unless I've already commented, then I just forgot that I tested for it

Jan 31, 2017 at 09:52 AM

rscheffler
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p.21 #8 · Leica 'M10"

FWIW, and I may have mentioned it earlier in this thread, but the few M10 DNGs I looked at from the DPR preproduction model preview, the ISO 100 file I pushed over 3 stops in LR didn't show signs of green shadows. There was very faint banding in deep shadows, but nothing that really jumped out. You wouldn't notice it unless you went looking for it. My guess is as the noise/grain increases with ISO, it will probably drown out whatever minimal banding might be present.

For me at least, right now the M10, without having actually tried it, would be my ideal digital M.

I like most of the changes (not the omission of the live view level), including retention of the external EVF simply because it can tilt, which I find very handy.

Thinking about my time with the M9 (I still have it, but rarely use it), I enjoy the images I made with it. It's easy to become sentimental about its positive attributes. Hauling it out of storage and actually using it, however, immediately reminds me about why I like the M240 so much more. I'm pretty sure it will be a similar feeling comparing the M10 against the M240. For the sake of my bank account (and other reasons), it's probably best for my wellbeing to not seek out trying an M10 for some time.

Then in ~ four years, we'll have the M11 and the same discussions.

Jan 31, 2017 at 12:19 PM

uhoh7
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p.21 #9 · Leica 'M10"

If you really want to see the M10:

Ashwin is just killing it.....

There are a lot of shots out there which don't make the camera look too special. Nice, yes. But there are a few who are really showing it. Look at that FLE sing.....jeez. He has a WATE shot which is fantastic.

These are the first shots which have made me drool

I'd bet money we'll see Allen shooting the M10 at least within a year. It seems to have sex with that 35/1.4 APSH

If you see somebody shooting it in a way you really like, share it.

This guy is pretty good, but a little over the top...

He also has a APO 50, but he's got such extreme contrast going, the lens is getting disguised. They are fun though

Edited on Jan 31, 2017 at 11:13 PM · View previous versions

Jan 31, 2017 at 11:00 PM

Alpha_Geist
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p.21 #10 · Leica 'M10"

Wow, those color (FLE & Notci) shots really stand out!

Jan 31, 2017 at 11:11 PM

uhoh7
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p.21 #11 · Leica 'M10"

Ashwin's stream is really interesting. You can see him working on learning the camera and the files. A handful really seem exceptional

Look at the WATE here....

Now there are some just "nice" ones nearby.

You won't be doing this with 35 Cron ASPH...

He had a 50 APO.....

But he didn't take it outside that I could see. Nocti is very nice. Like Huff, he is a speed addict

I'd love to see him stopped down just to get a look at the glass in that mode...

Hurry up and get one Allen, so we can see this thing properly

Jan 31, 2017 at 11:33 PM

sebboh
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p.21 #12 · Leica 'M10"

uhoh7 wrote:
Ashwin's stream is really interesting. You can see him working on learning the camera and the files. A handful really seem exceptional

I'd love to see him stopped down just to get a look at the glass in that mode...

Hurry up and get one Allen, so we can see this thing properly

sorry do be a buzz kill, but what's the excitement about? i would never guess those came from an m10 vs an m9 or m240, which is how it should be. the exciting things about the m10 are ergonomics plus a little better high iso, no?

Feb 01, 2017 at 12:01 AM

Alpha_Geist
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p.21 #13 · Leica 'M10"

I was impressed by the rendering of a few of the 35 lux and 50 nocti shots. I'm surprised that Ashwin didn't shoot any higher than 3200 ISO. At least from the shots I saw. There was one shot of two children/teens in the shadows that was very noisy. An extra bump in ISO might have helped. Looks like he underexposed a bit there and pushed the file a bit much in post. Some of his protest shots really pop, but that isn't a quality that is absent from the 240 or M9, just the combo of the lens and his PP style.

Feb 01, 2017 at 12:46 AM

zhangyue
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p.21 #14 · Leica 'M10"

uhoh7 wrote:
If you really want to see the M10:

Ashwin is just killing it.....

There are a lot of shots out there which don't make the camera look too special. Nice, yes. But there are a few who are really showing it. Look at that FLE sing.....jeez. He has a WATE shot which is fantastic.

These are the first shots which have made me drool

I'd bet money we'll see Allen shooting the M10 at least within a year. It seems to have sex with that 35/1.4 APSH

If you see somebody shooting it in a way you really like, share it.

This

He also has a APO 50, but he's got such extreme contrast going, the lens is getting disguised. They are fun though

...Show more →

I definitely agree with Derek on this one. It is really do more justice for photographer than camera. If you ask me, those images do no M10 good. It confirm my thought about the new camera. Those are wonderful photos and I enjoy them but tone gradient and color delicacy is not there. I won't blame photographer as those are might from batch process with certain look in mind to achieve, but NO good for judge camera color, tone etc...... IMHO

Feb 01, 2017 at 01:50 AM

edwardkaraa
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p.21 #15 · Leica 'M10"

zhangyue wrote:
I definitely agree with Derek on this one. It is really do more justice for photographer than camera. If you ask me, those images do no M10 good. It confirm my thought about the new camera. Those are wonderful photos and I enjoy them but tone gradient and color delicacy is not there. I won't blame photographer as those are might from batch process with certain look in mind to achieve, but NO good for judge camera color, tone etc...... IMHO

+1

Feb 01, 2017 at 01:51 AM

rscheffler
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p.21 #16 · Leica 'M10"

I don't know, the protest shots and kids playing soccer don't really look over processed. They've definitely been massaged, but IMO look pretty typical of M files. I really like the clarity of the soccer images (at web-rez) without looking like the clarity slider has been abused. That said, in the past I felt he definitely processed to personal taste, which is absolutely fine.

Feb 01, 2017 at 10:37 AM

uhoh7
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p.21 #17 · Leica 'M10"

sebboh wrote:
sorry do be a buzz kill, but what's the excitement about? i would never guess those came from an m10 vs an m9 or m240, which is how it should be. the exciting things about the m10 are ergonomics plus a little better high iso, no?

You are a buzz kill specialist

Feb 01, 2017 at 04:16 PM

uhoh7
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p.21 #18 · Leica 'M10"

and I know how jaded your eye is....the anti-Huff

You never liked anything Leica anyway. I'd be shocked if you had the slightest awareness of what I'm talking about: not that there any exceptional value in my own taste. It's different. Always has been. Which is one thing which makes interaction interesting. There are plenty of people with other taste and other priorities. Luckily I'm not worried about what other people like, just what I like.

You have your very nice muted overcast style, extremely well executed and I instantly can tell one of your images. I enjoy them, like somebody with an entirely different viewpoint than my own, but one that is nuanced and interesting. I never felt like trying to make one of yours, though, excellent as they often are.

You hate M9 OOC, and I like them. So your "meh" is confirming

Not in the least offensive, however. I like to hear it.

So few images on flickr still, so we have a long way to figure out what the M10 is, and isn't.

Feb 01, 2017 at 04:17 PM

sebboh
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p.21 #19 · Leica 'M10"

uhoh7 wrote:
You are a buzz kill specialist

You never liked anything Leica anyway.

I'd be shocked if you had the slightest awareness of what I'm talking about.

But that's OK, as there are plenty of people with other taste and other priorities.

Luckily I'm not worried about what other people like, just I like.

You have your very nice muted overcast style, extremely well executed and I instantly can tell one of your images. I enjoy them, like somebody with an entirely different viewpoint than my own, but one that is nuanced and interesting.

I know exactly how jaded your eye...Show more →

i like the images and i like leica, i just don't know what you see in them that is exceeds what your m9 would do with the same lenses and scene? should i be pixel peeping?

my style might be less overcast if i lived someplace less overcast.

i am quite jaded though.

Feb 01, 2017 at 04:43 PM

zhangyue
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p.21 #20 · Leica 'M10"

Ron, I agree but I just can't judge anything special about camera in this case with this type of photos.
Like you said it is typical Leica. No misunderstanding

Not trying to take down anyone process taste, just want say if there is anything special about m10 file, color etc, I just don't see it. That is it.
rscheffler wrote:
I don't know, the protest shots and kids playing soccer don't really look over processed. They've definitely been massaged, but IMO look pretty typical of M files. I really like the clarity of the soccer images (at web-rez) without looking like the clarity slider has been abused. That said, in the past I felt he definitely processed to personal taste, which is absolutely fine.

Feb 01, 2017 at 05:39 PM

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