p.9 #1 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
galenapass wrote:
Oly just swung to profit in the latest qtr.....no doubt helped by the exchange rate, yet profit it was.
Was this profit with their camera division or the entire company? Most of the mirrorless makers turn an overall profit, while losing money with their camera divisions. Fujifilm makes a good profit and as their entire digital camera line up is only 5% of the company, they can sustain the losses for quite a while.
p.9 #2 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
jctriguy wrote:
What do manual focus lenses have to do with building a great mirrorless camera?
Nothing in particular, but think about what I wrote. From a marketing perspective it could be gold considering Nikon's manual focus legacy, don't you think? Some companies would kill for such an edge.
p.9 #3 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
freaklikeme wrote:
I'm not saying that mirrorless isn't sapping sales from traditional DSLRs, I'm just saying they aren't the only thing sapping sales away from DSLRs, nor is the mirrorless market made up entirely of people who would otherwise buy a DSLR.
I can only talk from my own personal experience here, but all photographers which I know and who switched or added a mirrorless camera came from a DSLR, most from Canon followed by second with Nikon gear. The majority went with a Sony A7 series camera, two switched to a Fuji mirrorless camera. I don't even know one case where somebody decided to get a mirrorless camera (of any kind) and just had a cellphone or P&S.
p.9 #4 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
Paul Mo wrote:
Nothing in particular, but think about what I wrote. From a marketing perspective it could be gold considering Nikon's manual focus legacy, don't you think? Some companies would kill for such an edge.
Nikon lenses are useable on every canon camera and every mirrorless camera. Would it really be that much of a selling feature to say that Nikon lenses are able to be adapted to a Nikon mirrorless camera? It is highly unlikely that Nikon would stick with their current mount/flange distance for mirrorless, so nothing would be native mounting.
p.9 #5 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
sebboh wrote:
Olympus originally thought as you did and targeted p&s upgraders as their target market. they've transitioned away from that as has Sony to target dslr "downgraders". Fuji has always been targeting that group since they accidentally uncovered its existence by releasing the x100.
given the way that smart phones have eaten the p&s market there is more profit to be had targeting dslr users than compact upgraders.
it's easy to see who the camera companies think their market is by looking at their advertisements and product lines.
the idea that there is only one group that is the sole market for all Ilc cameras is of course foolish, but sales and surveys of buyers have lead all the mirrorless producers to the conclusion that there is a bigger market targeting dslr owners than p&s or smart phone shooters. ...Show more →
I totally agree. I was critical of Olympus for not taking a top-down approach to the introduction of m4/3—they did right with FT with their E-1. But I could understand their need to target the largest potential market—especially with all the losses they were reporting.
p.9 #6 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
retrofocus wrote:
I can only talk from my own personal experience here, but all photographers which I know and who switched or added a mirrorless camera came from a DSLR, most from Canon followed by second with Nikon gear. The majority went with a Sony A7 series camera, two switched to a Fuji mirrorless camera. I don't even know one case where somebody decided to get a mirrorless camera (of any kind) and just had a cellphone or P&S.
Had Sony brought the A7 series sooner, would Fujifilm have enjoyed their current success?
And what impact will the A7 series have on Fujifilm today?
p.9 #7 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
retrofocus wrote:
I can only talk from my own personal experience here, but all photographers which I know and who switched or added a mirrorless camera came from a DSLR, most from Canon followed by second with Nikon gear. The majority went with a Sony A7 series camera, two switched to a Fuji mirrorless camera. I don't even know one case where somebody decided to get a mirrorless camera (of any kind) and just had a cellphone or P&S.
So long as major sporting events show a sea of white lens and DSLRs being used by the pro, the entry level will most like gravitate to DSLRs. Also, first-time buyers would, most likely buy at a camera store where most sales people are pushing what the pros use.
The Canon/Nikon entrenchment is deep and it will take time and considerable technology to unseat them. And then there's the possibility that both have fully developed mirrorless systems waiting for when the time is right!
p.9 #8 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
Atlasman2 wrote:
Had Sony brought the A7 series sooner, would Fujifilm have enjoyed their current success?
And what impact will the A7 series have on Fujifilm today?
The first of my friends who switched to mirrorless from Nikon DSLR bought the Fuji X-100S for its compact size and easy to carry but still delivering great image quality. He later considered to switch to the Sony A7R because of its FF sensor and interchangable lens option but preferred the ergonomics and menus of the Fuji better in the end.
I am honestly surprised that Fuji did not yet release a FF mirrorless camera yet. Some still prefer the Fuji mirrorless option over Sony - for ergonomic reasons, menu options, and smaller cropped lens sizes which makes it easier for travel and better price-wise. But most I know prefer to have Sony's FF sensor options in the mirrorless camera.
To answer your questions, I believe Fuji would not have been as successful if Sony brought the A7 series sooner. And I also think that Sony has a severe impact on Fuji camera sales especially also with the cropped sensor A6000 series for example.
p.9 #9 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
Atlasman2 wrote:
So long as major sporting events show a sea of white lens and DSLRs being used by the pro, the entry level will most like gravitate to DSLRs. Also, first-time buyers would, most likely buy at a camera store where most sales people are pushing what the pros use.
The Canon/Nikon entrenchment is deep and it will take time and considerable technology to unseat them. And then there's the possibility that both have fully developed mirrorless systems waiting for when the time is right!
Well, as I pointed out earlier, mirrorless is not there yet to replace DSLRs in all areas of photography - especially in sports shooting where Sony doesn't even has long lenses available yet either. I disagree what you stated afterwards - first time camera buyers are mostly intrigued by lowering size and bulk of their camera gear (if they are not into sports/event/wildlife shooting where other kind of lenses are required anyway).
Canon/Nikon have their strong and dominant position especially for sports/event/wildlife shooting wich they will likely maintain for a longer time. But in other areas of photography their position as camera market leaders is clearly challenged by the mirrorless emerging technology - both brands might start with suitable mirrorles systems when they already existed in other brands for quite a while. They pretty much will be too late to the party.
A good example is Canon latest 5Ds(R) - a great camera, just 3 years too late after Nikon came with the D800(E) and followed by the Sony A7R. People started switching and adding other systems to their existing Canon gear when Canon remained dormant to compete with the competitive sensor. I still have now to see a 5Ds(R) in the field - in my circle of photographers it is not much talked about this camera. 3 years ago people would have been intrigued to buy it as high MP FF camera when vested in Canon gear. A similar thing likely happens to Canon with mirrorless - when they finally come up with a (FF?) mirrorless camera, people already added another system to their gear and not many will switch back then.
p.9 #10 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
retrofocus wrote:
Well, as I pointed out earlier, mirrorless is not there yet to replace DSLRs in all areas of photography - especially in sports shooting where Sony doesn't even has long lenses available yet either. I disagree what you stated afterwards - first time camera buyers are mostly intrigued by lowering size and bulk of their camera gear (if they are not into sports/event/wildlife shooting where other kind of lenses are required anyway).
Canon/Nikon have their storng and dominant position especially for sports/event/wildlife shooting wich they will likely maintain for a longer time. But in other areas of photography their position as camera market leaders is clearly challenged by the mirrorless emerging technology - both brands might start with suitable mirrorles systems when they already existed in other brands for quite a while. They pretty much will be too late to the party. ...Show more →
I think there are many reasons why new camera buyers purchase a camera. What I see with tourists is a lot of canon rebel bodies, probably 5 or 10 to 1 compared to mirrorless. Whether that is features, price, advertising or sales pressure, who really knows. But in North Ametica, it still appears that new buyers looking for a 'serious' camera are still mostly reaching for DSLR. The other group I see are the new parents, with most that I know going for an advanced compact or superzoom camera. Basically a group that doesn't want interchangeable lenses and doesn't trust a cellphone camera for everything.
EDIT: not exactly sure what you mean by 'first time camera buyers'...do you mean first time mirrorless buyers or first time buying a more advanced camera than their cellphone?
p.9 #11 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
rattymouse wrote:
Was this profit with their camera division or the entire company? Most of the mirrorless makers turn an overall profit, while losing money with their camera divisions. Fujifilm makes a good profit and as their entire digital camera line up is only 5% of the company, they can sustain the losses for quite a while.
"Olympus’ camera devision amassed an operating profit of 1.1 billion yen (approximately US$8.8 million) this past quarter, a massive improvement considering a year ago the numbers showed a 1.9 billion yen (approximately US$15.2 million) loss."
p.9 #12 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
galenapass wrote:
"Olympus’ camera devision amassed an operating profit of 1.1 billion yen (approximately US$8.8 million) this past quarter, a massive improvement considering a year ago the numbers showed a 1.9 billion yen (approximately US$15.2 million) loss."
Interesting. I'll have a read at the link later when I have time. It's very good news when Olympus can turn a profit, assuming it's a real profit and not an accounting trick like Fujifilm's "profit"..
p.9 #13 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
Atlasman2 wrote:
So long as major sporting events show a sea of white lens and DSLRs being used by the pro, the entry level will most like gravitate to DSLRs. Also, first-time buyers would, most likely buy at a camera store where most sales people are pushing what the pros use.
The Canon/Nikon entrenchment is deep and it will take time and considerable technology to unseat them. And then there's the possibility that both have fully developed mirrorless systems waiting for when the time is right!
Actually, this is not what I see at my local shop. They have a wide variety of mirrorless cameras.
For the perioid Jan-Jul 2015 it is roughly
DSLR units: 5,629,887 (1,5% down)
DSLR YEN: 261,685,199,000 (5% up)
Mirrorless units: 1,819,117 (3% up)
Mirrorless YEN: 76,716,469,000 (6% up)
Sales took a dip in the beginning of the year but have been growing since the. If we look at July alone, mirrorless sales to other countries than Japan 26% higher than last year and the the income is 38% up from last year.
Just pick a month and numbers that fit your storyline!
I would say people are buying more expensive cameras and bit more people are buying mirrorless. Mirrorless growth is mostly outside of Japan.
For the perioid Jan-Jul 2015 it is roughly
DSLR units: 5,629,887 (1,5% down)
DSLR YEN: 261,685,199,000 (5% up)
Mirrorless units: 1,819,117 (3% up)
Mirrorless YEN: 76,716,469,000 (6% up)
Sales took a dip in the beginning of the year but have been growing since the. If we look at July alone, mirrorless sales to other countries than Japan 26% higher than last year and the the income is 38% up from last year.
Just pick a month and numbers that fit your storyline!
I would say people are buying more expensive cameras and bit more people are buying mirrorless. Mirrorless growth is mostly outside of Japan....Show more →
This makes sense in a way that there was nothing new/exciting in the mirrorless field end of 2014 which made the 1Q 2015 somewhat flat for mirrorless sales. I expect to see a good rise in mirrorless sales especially after Sony announced and released the new A7 series products (not saying that it is only Sony in mirrorless sales but it certainly has become the biggest player there)
For the perioid Jan-Jul 2015 it is roughly
DSLR units: 5,629,887 (1,5% down)
DSLR YEN: 261,685,199,000 (5% up)
Mirrorless units: 1,819,117 (3% up)
Mirrorless YEN: 76,716,469,000 (6% up)
Sales took a dip in the beginning of the year but have been growing since the. If we look at July alone, mirrorless sales to other countries than Japan 26% higher than last year and the the income is 38% up from last year.
Just pick a month and numbers that fit your storyline!
I would say people are buying more expensive cameras and bit more people are buying mirrorless. Mirrorless growth is mostly outside of Japan....Show more →
As already noted, and seen in the stats contained in your link, mirrorless sales are not increasing enough to replace the drop in DSLR's. Customers are being lost overall, not gained.
The drop is even more massive when you add in the lost sales from compacts.
Remember, revenue from compact sales was a huge part of camera maker profits and volume, that kept their manufacturing plants busy.
p.9 #18 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
retrofocus wrote:
This makes sense in a way that there was nothing new/exciting in the mirrorless field end of 2014 which made the 1Q 2015 somewhat flat for mirrorless sales. I expect to see a good rise in mirrorless sales especially after Sony announced and released the new A7 series products (not saying that it is only Sony in mirrorless sales but it certainly has become the biggest player there)
I'm sure they make a lot of money on a7 series sales, but in terms of volume they sell way more a6000 and other APS-c cameras. So it depends if you are looking at the CIPA stats for units shipped or dollar value shipped or profit earned.
For the perioid Jan-Jul 2015 it is roughly
DSLR units: 5,629,887 (1,5% down)
DSLR YEN: 261,685,199,000 (5% up)
Mirrorless units: 1,819,117 (3% up)
Mirrorless YEN: 76,716,469,000 (6% up)
Sales took a dip in the beginning of the year but have been growing since the. If we look at July alone, mirrorless sales to other countries than Japan 26% higher than last year and the the income is 38% up from last year.
Just pick a month and numbers that fit your storyline!
I would say people are buying more expensive cameras and bit more people are buying mirrorless. Mirrorless growth is mostly outside of Japan....Show more →
Remember you are looking at shipping numbers, not sales.
p.9 #20 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
I was referring only to MILC and not the P&S fixed-lens mirrorless cameras.
jctriguy wrote:
I certainly disagree with you and chez making a direct one to one cause and effect relationship. I think we should consider the larger market of 'advanced' camera buyers. I suspect that just as many mirrorless buyers would either buy nothing/get an advanced P&S as would buy a DSLR if mirrorless didn't exist. I don't think everyone going for a mirrorless is focused on interchangeable lenses, I think they are going for size and better quality compared to their current cell phone or P&S. Most are still getting smaller sensors, not FF like most on FM, so it isn't a stretch to think that many people would likely be happy with an rx100 or g7x instead of a mirrorless option.
