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Archive 2015 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....

  
 
itai195
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p.3 #1 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....


I think Canon and Nikon are more concerned about the overall decline of the camera market than in competing with mirrorless in particular. The mirrorless offerings we have now from several makers are excellent, but they're not exactly saving the camera industry.


Sep 18, 2015 at 07:05 PM
bobbytan
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p.3 #2 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....


True, many people will still prefer an OVF. It's like comparing the analog vinyl record to a digital medium. What's nice about the EVF is WYSIWYG. If you are trying to position the sun in a particular spot, for example, you will get a true and accurate feedback of how the image will look on your LCD before you release the shutter. With an OVF you will be second-guessing the final result.

cvrle59 wrote:
Obviously, it suits your needs well, that's fine. But, OVF will never go away completely. There will be always market for it. It is as fast as the light is, so EVF will never reach there, period. It's matter of physics, not Sony, Nikon, Canon, Samsung, or any other manufacturer. We will be always dealing with that comprise, and there are still a lot of people out there, who would appreciate speed of light more than all the information on that little screen.




Sep 18, 2015 at 07:42 PM
rattymouse
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p.3 #3 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....


itai195 wrote:
I think Canon and Nikon are more concerned about the overall decline of the camera market than in competing with mirrorless in particular. The mirrorless offerings we have now from several makers are excellent, but they're not exactly saving the camera industry.


Spot on. There's no doubt in my mind that mirrorless hardly exists as a threat to Canon and Nikon. They are smart enough to know that there's something bigger going on then this (it's called the smart phone). Out of all of the mirrorless players, only Sony has any serious traction and even they are a far distant third place in market share.




Sep 18, 2015 at 07:54 PM
cvrle59
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p.3 #4 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....


To "bobbytan"
I like your comparison, "It's like comparing the analog vinyl record to a digital medium". High end audio is my another expensive hobby (my wife would say, no problem that you have so many, but they're all so expensive), beside photography and fishing, but unfortunately no vinyl. There is a constant argue about it, but to me, vinyl still wins it. I'm not saying OVF wins it, but it's nice to have them both. I still hope that one day, we will have a hybrid with both in one body. It won't be cheap, but Sony A7RII isn't either. It is at least $1000 overpriced. Thanks to CaNikon that they still sleeping on their SLR success, instead making Sony to sell it what it's worth.
My 2 c's.

Edited on Sep 18, 2015 at 08:10 PM · View previous versions



Sep 18, 2015 at 08:10 PM
philip_pj
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p.3 #5 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....


well, today there is this:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-is-strongly-growing-in-the-us-camera-market/

And plenty of anecdotal information supports it - Zeiss even made a PR release video of the Milvis lenses - on a Sony a7rII, over at their FB page: Sept 15. See it here:
https://www.facebook.com/carlzeisslenses

CZ are actually emphasising the flexibility of using these very heavy lenses on several 'platforms' - code for Sony a7. Sony of course are backing out of A mount and herding the 'crop cats' into FF as fast as is humanly possible. Sony can now sell a full-fledged MILC for DSLR prices, and sell large numbers of them.

I've always felt C/N would struggle with the unruly mob of committed DSLR users, who will feel abandoned if/when they do make the move to MILC. One things is certain - to compete, they will need to make a *full frame* MILC, to avoid the niche 'toy camera' label, down there duking it out with Fuji and Olympus in an ever-shrinking sector.

The window of opportunity is now closing on them however; or put another way, the quality they need for a new MILC is going up fast, thanks to Sony. Sony has the next raft of new lenses around the corner, Zeiss have Batis and Loxia seemingly on perpetual back order, the latest from both are the very antithesis of all but two Milvis - new, high tech, mostly light/small, very appealing and quite affordable.

Can C/N produce an equivalent range of new lenses, or would they simply try to sell the faithful on an EVF mirrorless built around the FFD of F/EF lenses, almost all of which are very large and very heavy, and force the camera body to be large? People, en masse, clearly want small/light these days, unless there is a very good reason not to do so.

New FF lenses would be a massive commitment, taking years. Besides the psychology of user angst ('my system suddenly looks old'), their biggest problem is inertia - not just market inertia, but their current solutions in IS/VR, AF systems. Sony is quickly covering a lot of key bases in a still small camera: IBIS, silent modes, high ISO, video, EVF aids, MILC simplicity, finely balanced lenses (size vs IQ), now wrapped around a Sony-only flagship sensor. So it is a package deal from them now, one that may be very hard to match in the short term. They are building momentum and are running very hard, six models in two years, each one a clear step up.

In the shoes of Canon, I really don't know what I would do. Paradigm shifts tend to do that to dominant players - they upset the apple cart. As soon as they hypothetically make a great FF MILC, what happens to the cash cow of DSLR sales then? It may become a fading legacy 'pro only' system overnight, rather like A mount but on a huge scale. They might do better upping their sensor tech and bolstering the top end, which is where Zeiss see the future of DSLRs. But that might be changing now too, see above.



Sep 18, 2015 at 08:10 PM
Lee Saxon
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p.3 #6 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....


AvianScott wrote:
You can almost bet Canon and Nikon are prepared to jump in when necessary, but the current market just doesn't dictate it yet.


The question here though is cause and effect. Does this graph show that DSLRs are much bigger sellers, or does it show that whatever Nikon and Canon are producing are much bigger sellers? Or that whatever is a serious, rugged, professional tool for working photographers and not a flimsy menu-diving consumer electronics toy that's going to be replaced in a year are much bigger sellers? If instead of being complacent lumbering dinosaur followers Nikon and Canon had decided to lead and released serious mirrorless cameras, would these charts still look like this?

One of the comments that has been made is that Canon and Nikon haven't taken this step because it would erode sales of their DSLRs. But that should be what they want! Replace, don't add (that's the flaw with the Nikon 1). At a time when margins and volume are becoming a problem, moving customers from clockwork Rube Goldberg DSLRs to two-PCB mirrorless should absolutely be their goal. I can't believe they're too dumb to see that.

My theory is they don't think the technology is ready. Maybe like me they agree EVFs are currently only good enough in bright sunlight (but not midday, that's too bright and contrasty!). Maybe they're waiting until mirrorless can competently satisfy not just D7000 customers but D4s customers too.

Otherwise they're just lazy and/or stupid, which I don't really think is the case.

Edited on Sep 18, 2015 at 11:57 PM · View previous versions



Sep 18, 2015 at 09:45 PM
JohnJ
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p.3 #7 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....


It bogles the mind that Canon and Nikon didn't build a FF MILC before Sony did it. What where they thinking, that it was a fad and would go away? That it would erode their DSLR sales if they encouraged the MILC space, instead Sony did it for them. I don't see how they can be happy to keep loosing market share and I suspect they won't for much longer.

Either Canon or Nikon could potentially build a MILC at the drop of a hat with presumably no need to redesign or alter any of their existing lenses.



Sep 18, 2015 at 10:07 PM
telyt
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p.3 #8 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....


If CaNikon don't threaten their own DSLRs with a good FF mirrorless, Sony will. Or has.


Sep 18, 2015 at 11:12 PM
Spyro P.
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p.3 #9 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....


it is true that mirrorless is showing more innovation potential than DSLR, which more or less topped out 5 years ago and has been marketing non-upgrade upgrades since then.

However, DSLR is hugely profitable for Canon & Nikon. Sunk R&D costs that have paid themselves off many times over, dominance in retail & service channels and huge brand association guarantee it. They dont need to innovate, they can just lean on the little players and watch them struggle financially while they milk the market. It would be stupid to do anything else than wait.

Sony is showing great potential but they will have plenty of chances to screw up before they become a real threat. After all Sony is fickle and unpredictable, give them enough rope and if by chance they don't hang themselves you can worry about them then.



Sep 18, 2015 at 11:43 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #10 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....



Lee Saxon wrote:
If instead of being complacent lumbering dinosaur followers Nikon and Canon had decided to lead and released serious mirrorless cameras, would these charts still look like this?


I doubt much different. The traditional camera market is suffering due to an external force, or paradigm shift - smartphones. This platform 'war' of DSLR vs. mirrorless is just fracturing what remains. Maybe Canikon are slow to convert to mirrorless because it's just a dilution of their resources and efforts?

Anyway, looking at this, it reminds me of the advent of AF back in the late 80s. Who was the first with a 'real' AF system? It was Minolta. Canon and Nikon were slow(ish) to bring theirs to market, but it could be argued both (or at least Canon's) were superior to Minolta's. While Minolta certainly cashed in big time while Canikon played catch up, over the longterm they didn't really benefit from being first to market. It will be interesting to see how this plays out with Sony now.

IMO, there is still plenty of time for Canikon to enter mirrorless. A 5D series or D750 equivalent MILC would seriously challenge Sony.



Sep 19, 2015 at 12:06 AM
Lee Saxon
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p.3 #11 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....


Lee Saxon wrote:
If instead of being complacent lumbering dinosaur followers Nikon and Canon had decided to lead and released serious mirrorless cameras, would these charts still look like this?

rscheffler wrote:
I doubt much different. The traditional camera market is suffering due to an external force, or paradigm shift - smartphones. This platform 'war' of DSLR vs. mirrorless is just fracturing what remains.
.


I definitely agree the decline in size of the overall market wouldn't have been avoided I'm just referring to how what's left is distributed between DSLR & mirrorless



Sep 19, 2015 at 12:32 AM
Big Cheese
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p.3 #12 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....


I doubt Canon is afraid of going into mirrorless because of canabalisation of its dslr sales. Anytime Canon introduces a new body it kills sales of its own older bodies. If the sell a FF mirrorless and it kills the 6d why care, they are simply selling a new camera in the same way the 6d mark II will kill the original 6d.

I think they are simply staying clear because they are trying to stay profitable in a slowing market. Their 5d and 6 d bodies seem on a 3 year + replacement cycle, old lenses are only being upgraded slowly, etc. indeed Canon's slow pace of innovation combined with ever higher prices for more of the same was the thing that frustrated me most and caused me to jump ship.



Sep 19, 2015 at 12:40 AM
DavidBM
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p.3 #13 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....


The recent interview with Maeda at Imaging Resource was interesting; it suggested that Canon would very soon have a mirrorless enthusiast APSC camera to market. An EOS-M that forumers might like, with more lenses.

It makes a lot of sense for Canon to move their APSC offerings over to mirrorless. For one thing, there is nowhere near the depth of APSC lenses in their line-up to duplicate, and also Sony don't have a great line-up to compete against (from the lens perspective Fuji are the APSC competition). I can imagine starting with an enthusiast model and working down to a mirrorless Rebel they could migrate completely and dominate the APSC market.

The FF business is harder. They are still releasing new, R&D intensive FF dslr lenses. Even if they work perfectly on a mirrorless full frame with adapter, it will seem to customers somehow less proper than native lenses (and also doesn't allow them to put lens elements further towards the sensor). If they design a mirrorless system with the current flange distance, it'll seem like a temporary measure, and make people nervous about committing.

Making a huge break and coming out with enough FF short flange distance lenses to compete with Sony's current line-up, and then an even better adapter solution for the legacy lenses, is what they likely have to do. But that's a big R&D expense...



Sep 19, 2015 at 01:18 AM
Keith B.
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p.3 #14 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....


It is clear that for 24x36 mirrorless, there is a slight smaller-size advantage to the bodies, but not for the lenses.
That leaves one major and one minor advantage for a 24x36 mirrorless--featuring a shortened flange to focus distance and a full function adapter for the earlier SLR lenses--- from Canon/Nikon:
Major: As always, the EVF towers over the OVF in dim and dark lighting conditions. No question, no doubt...case closed.
Minor(though it is major to me): The short flange to focus distance that mirrorless allows the creation of reasonably priced, smaller, non-zoom wide angle lenses that are not plagued by the distortion issues caused by accommodating the large F to F distance of the mirrored cameras.



Sep 19, 2015 at 01:40 AM
Lee Saxon
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p.3 #15 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....


DavidBM wrote:
If they design a mirrorless system with the current flange distance, it'll seem like a temporary measure, and make people nervous about committing..


That doesn't really make sense to me. If it's the same mount, what is it you're committing to? I don't see replacing your 5D3 with a "5Dm" with the mirror and prism ripped out and an EVF stuck in* as any more of a risk or commitment than replacing it with a 5D4.

*which, according to a survey Thom Hogan ran a few months back is all a lot of people want CaNikon to do, though I agree with you that it'd be a temporary measure and/or a silly move and what they really need long-term is new shorter (and in Nikon's case, wider) mounts and nigh-100%-compatibility adapters for existing lenses.



Sep 19, 2015 at 08:50 AM
Lee Saxon
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p.3 #16 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....


Keith B. wrote:
Major: As always, the EVF towers over the OVF in dim and dark lighting conditions. No question, no doubt...case closed.


Emphatically disagree.




Sep 19, 2015 at 08:51 AM
Cliff L.
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p.3 #17 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....


Keith B. wrote:
Major: As always, the EVF towers over the OVF in dim and dark lighting conditions. No question, no doubt...case closed.



That's great if you only use your camera indoors, taking pictures of your doll collection...

Unfortunately, when you go outdoors in daylight, the pathetic 4- 5 stop dynamic range of the EVF means you can never see the entire scene you're trying to photograph until you get home and upload the images to your PC. Almost like shooting slide film again...



Sep 19, 2015 at 09:33 AM
dasrocket
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p.3 #18 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....


cvrle59 wrote:
There will be always market for it. It is as fast as the light is, so EVF will never reach there, period. It's matter of physics, not Sony, Nikon, Canon, Samsung, or any other manufacturer. We will be always dealing with that comprise, and there are still a lot of people out there, who would appreciate speed of light more than all the information on that little screen.


Only true for bright light. The clarity, gain and ability to focus in low light with EVFs surpassed
OVFs quite a while ago.

My comment was to remind of another major advancement that MILCs bring over DSLRs specifically. Whether there is a market for OVFs or not does not enter the debate of one VS the other. There still is a market for fountain pens.

I hope they remain because I love my X100s OVF and my fountain pens



Sep 19, 2015 at 10:06 AM
Lee Saxon
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p.3 #19 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....


dasrocket wrote:
Only true for bright light. The clarity, gain and ability to focus in low light with EVFs surpassed
OVFs quite a while ago.


Okay, that's two people who have made this statement which is literally the opposite of true within a few posts of each other. Are we being had?



Sep 19, 2015 at 10:11 AM
Cliff L.
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p.3 #20 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....


Lee Saxon wrote:
Okay, that's two people who have made this statement which is literally the opposite of true within a few posts of each other. Are we being had?


I suspect these sorts of silly claims are coming from people who have only just upgraded from smartphones, and have never actually used a real camera...



Sep 19, 2015 at 10:36 AM
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