p.8 #1 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
chez wrote:
Where did I make such an assumption. Consumers have so much money to spend on photography. Purchasing a mirrorless camera and not a DSLR or lens just moves that disposable consumer income from Canokon to the mirrorless manufactures.
p.8 #2 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
jctriguy wrote:
What does this contribute here? Just calling out someone who states an opinion? Didn't you just cry about people not posting opinions in a post about 2 or 3 up? So I guess if people have an opinion it needs to be your opinion? I'm really confused by the double speak here...
Dont let it bother you. I certainly dont. Chez often needs to lauch personal attacks. It is *very* typical if you dont tote his line.
p.8 #3 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
chez wrote:
The market I'm talking about is photography. I don't view mirrorless and DSLR as different sub markets...it's still the consumer walking into the camera shop with a fist full of money wanting to buy a camera to take photos.
If mirrorless did not exist, chances are that consumer would have bought a DSLR. But with mirrorless as an option, we are seeing 25% of those consumer dollars being drawn away from DSLR's towards mirrorless.
Apparently you dont understand that Canon and Nikon make mirrorless cameras. This might explain why you look so confused here.
p.8 #4 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
rattymouse wrote:
This is abject nonsense. There were no smart phones during the film era and clearly anyone with the ability to observe life around them sees that smart phones are the *dominate* form of photography now.
If I have a "sky is falling" view, your is certainly a head in the sand viewpoint.
Yes they are, but are you trying to say the people today with smartphones would have purchased a film camera back in the 90's.
What I see happened with digital is the amount of people taking photos has grown by magnitudes over the film era. The technologies like Facebook and other online media has fueled this growth. If the smartphone camera was not around I do not believe we would see these people rushing out to purchase a P&S or DSLR. It's the convenience of cellphone cameras to take a photo and instantly post to Facebook that has driven the popularity and has greatly expanded the number of photographers.
p.8 #5 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
rattymouse wrote:
Apparently you dont understand that Canon and Nikon make mirrorless cameras. This might explain why you look so confused here.
I totally understand that. Can you tell me the revenue generated by their mirrorless sales? You are implying it is substantial...so much that Canon decided to withdraw their mirrorless sales in North America.
p.8 #6 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
chez wrote:
Yes they are, but are you trying to say the people today with smartphones would have purchased a film camera back in the 90's.
What I see happened with digital is the amount of people taking photos has grown by magnitudes over the film era. The technologies like Facebook and other online media has fueled this growth. If the smartphone camera was not around I do not believe we would see these people rushing out to purchase a P&S or DSLR. It's the convenience of cellphone cameras to take a photo and instantly post to Facebook that has driven the popularity and has greatly expanded the number of photographers. ...Show more →
+1. This is absolutely true. I believe the segment of users in the professional and semi-professional camera market is fairly constant with maybe a slight increase when digital took off and replaced film. But the amateur market has expanded a lot mostly due to having easier accessibility to digital photos especially with smartphones. The distribution of camera users in the professional and semi-professional segment is changing - that's where higher end mirrorless cameras come into play - depending on what the main shooting preferences are. Some will continue to use DSLRs but others add or switch to mirrorless systems.
p.8 #7 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
bjornthun wrote:
I also think that DSLRs and MILCs make up one ILC market, and the various offering are direct competitors. I have seen nothing to indicate otherwise. This competition takes place both on features and within respective price ranges.
That line of thinking is blind to the fact that both platforms have unique draws for consumers fulfilling needs that the other platform can't serve or doesn't serve well, meaning the platforms themselves are the draw. So a potential customer for one imagining platform isn't necessarily a customer for any or all imaging platforms.
I'm not saying that mirrorless isn't sapping sales from traditional DSLRs, I'm just saying they aren't the only thing sapping sales away from DSLRs, nor is the mirrorless market made up entirely of people who would otherwise buy a DSLR.
p.8 #8 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
freaklikeme wrote:
That line of thinking is blind to the fact that both platforms have unique draws for consumers fulfilling needs that the other platform can't serve or doesn't serve well, meaning the platforms themselves are the draw. So a potential customer for one imagining platform isn't necessarily a customer for any or all imaging platforms.
I'm not saying that mirrorless isn't sapping sales from traditional DSLRs, I'm just saying they aren't the only thing sapping sales away from DSLRs, nor is the mirrorless market made up entirely of people who would otherwise buy a DSLR.
There is a sufficiently big overlap between the tasks that can be completed with the two kinds of camera systems to warrant my assesment of them as belonging to the same competitive market. How well the tasks can be completed is not the question, but rather a part of each camera models comparative advantage. This must be left to the judgement of the prospective buyer. Until recently the only relevant choice was a DSLR and even earlier manual focus film SLRs. People have coped with what they had. So, DSLRs and MILCs make up one ILC market.
Until four years ago I used Nikon DSLRs exclusively. Now I use only Sony mirrorless. My motifs and subjects are the same kind. Both kind of cameras can be used, but the EVF suits me better for my often slow paced photography.
p.8 #9 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
bjornthun wrote:
There is a sufficiently big overlap between the tasks that can be completed with the two kinds of camera systems to warrant my assesment of them as belonging to the same competitive market. How well the tasks can be completed is not the question, but rather a part of each camera models comparative advantage. This must be left to the judgement of the prospective buyer. Until recently the only relevant choice was a DSLR and even earlier manual focus film SLRs. People have coped with what they had. So, DSLRs and MILCs make up one ILC market.
Until four years ago I used Nikon DSLRs exclusively. Now I use only Sony mirrorless. My motifs and subjects are the same kind. Both kind of cameras can be used, but the EVF suits me better for my often slow paced photography....Show more →
This is the definitive fact? Mirrorless and DSLR fill the exact same market?
Funny, because even on this thread people are saying they wouldn't buy a DSLR if mirrorless didn't exist. How is that possible if the two types of cameras target exactly the same consumer?
p.8 #10 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
jctriguy wrote:
This is the definitive fact? Mirrorless and DSLR fill the exact same market?
Mirrorless and DSLR cameras are targeted at the same market. All the manufacturers compete for our money and will gladly sell us just their cameras and lenses, DSLR or mirrorless. As an example you can check out Olympus adds mentioning the size advantage of their OM-D line compared to DSLR.
Funny, because even on this thread people are saying they wouldn't buy a DSLR if mirrorless didn't exist. How is that possible if the two types of cameras target exactly the same consumer?
This is possible, because different prospective customers may perceive the products in that market differently. That does not preclude DSLRs and MILC belonging to one ILC market. The ILC market is simply broader with more variation now that there are both mirrorless and DSLRs as well as rangefinders to choose from. The customers benefit from more choice.
Though I think that mirrorless will dominate the ILC market only a few years from now, the DSLR will remain there much like the Leica rangefinder is still with us today.
p.8 #11 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
bjornthun wrote:
Mirrorless and DSLR cameras are targeted at the same market. All the manufacturers compete for our money and will gladly sell us just their cameras and lenses, DSLR or mirrorless. As an example you can check out Olympus adds mentioning the size advantage of their OM-D line compared to DSLR.
This is of course true, but also doesn't tell us anything about the topic here. Hyundai would love to have the money of all the people that buy a Porsche, Audi, BMW etc, that doesn't mean that Hyundai cars are in the same market as a Porsche 911.
I think people that are looking at mirrorless are just as likely to walk out of a shop (or online) with a rx100 style camera compared to a DSLR, assuming that a mirrorless doesn't seem to meet their needs. I'd say that an rx100 is in the same market as mirrorless and DSLR, probably more so than saying mirrorless and DSLR are the same. Once you broaden the market you need to include all the other product categories that fit into that new broader category.
p.8 #12 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
jctriguy wrote:
This is of course true, but also doesn't tell us anything about the topic here. Hyundai would love to have the money of all the people that buy a Porsche, Audi, BMW etc, that doesn't mean that Hyundai cars are in the same market as a Porsche 911.
I think people that are looking at mirrorless are just as likely to walk out of a shop (or online) with a rx100 style camera compared to a DSLR, assuming that a mirrorless doesn't seem to meet their needs. I'd say that an rx100 is in the same market as mirrorless and DSLR, probably more so than saying mirrorless and DSLR are the same. Once you broaden the market you need to include all the other product categories that fit into that new broader category....Show more →
We shall just have to disagree on this.
p.8 #14 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
jctriguy wrote:
This is of course true, but also doesn't tell us anything about the topic here. Hyundai would love to have the money of all the people that buy a Porsche, Audi, BMW etc, that doesn't mean that Hyundai cars are in the same market as a Porsche 911.
I think people that are looking at mirrorless are just as likely to walk out of a shop (or online) with a rx100 style camera compared to a DSLR, assuming that a mirrorless doesn't seem to meet their needs. I'd say that an rx100 is in the same market as mirrorless and DSLR, probably more so than saying mirrorless and DSLR are the same. Once you broaden the market you need to include all the other product categories that fit into that new broader category....Show more →
Olympus originally thought as you did and targeted p&s upgraders as their target market. they've transitioned away from that as has Sony to target dslr "downgraders". Fuji has always been targeting that group since they accidentally uncovered its existence by releasing the x100.
given the way that smart phones have eaten the p&s market there is more profit to be had targeting dslr users than compact upgraders.
it's easy to see who the camera companies think their market is by looking at their advertisements and product lines.
the idea that there is only one group that is the sole market for all Ilc cameras is of course foolish, but sales and surveys of buyers have lead all the mirrorless producers to the conclusion that there is a bigger market targeting dslr owners than p&s or smart phone shooters.
p.8 #15 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
chez wrote:
I totally understand that. Can you tell me the revenue generated by their mirrorless sales? You are implying it is substantial...so much that Canon decided to withdraw their mirrorless sales in North America.
Withdraw? Better read again before you make factually incorrect statements. Again.
Yes. of course they reintroduced their mirrorless into the North American market. They can see 25% of all cameras being sold are mirrorless...they aren't that stupid to sit watching on the side lines.
Now would you dive into a system that was introduced at a very high price, then lowered the price to fire sale standards just to clear inventory...then drop the camera completely...then to reintroduce the camera once again. Wonder when they'll once again drop the line in North America.
p.8 #17 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
chez wrote:
Yes. of course they reintroduced their mirrorless into the North American market. They can see 25% of all cameras being sold are mirrorless...they aren't that stupid to sit watching on the side lines.
Now would you dive into a system that was introduced at a very high price, then lowered the price to fire sale standards just to clear inventory...then drop the camera completely...then to reintroduce the camera once again. Wonder when they'll once again drop the line in North America.
Virtually every mirrorless camera companies have fire sales to move product. Sales are down hard across the board. For example, you would have to be a veritable fool to pay full price for any Fujifilm gear. They are on near constant sale, even brand new high end lenses like the 56mm f/1.2 go on sale just a few months after release.
Mirrorless is doing nothing, absolutely nothing to mitigate the drop in camera sales. All the makers are losing more total customers than they are gaining from mirrorless. Further, NONE of them are producing profits except CaNikon, and perhaps Sony. The rest have been losing tens of millions of dollars year upon year upon year.
p.8 #20 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
rattymouse wrote:
Virtually every mirrorless camera companies have fire sales to move product. Sales are down hard across the board. For example, you would have to be a veritable fool to pay full price for any Fujifilm gear. They are on near constant sale, even brand new high end lenses like the 56mm f/1.2 go on sale just a few months after release.
Mirrorless is doing nothing, absolutely nothing to mitigate the drop in camera sales. All the makers are losing more total customers than they are gaining from mirrorless. Further, NONE of them are producing profits except CaNikon, and perhaps Sony. The rest have been losing tens of millions of dollars year upon year upon year.
