jprezant wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree with you here Prof.
I graduated High school in 2003, and seriously, if there was a photog. like
sergio around...I would've pulled all the strings to book him. Kids don't care
about looking "grown up" or accomplished....they're kids. They want some
cool freakin pictures that their friends will be gaga over. (I can't believe I said
gaga) Kids this age are still really concerned about how they appear...but not
how they appear to grown ups...how they appear to friends. Gotta be the cool
kid.
I personally HATE traditional senior portraits...so boring. I believe that sergio
is on the way to creating an entirely new trend. Portraits where the feet
are in focus, but nothing else (I'm kidding ... )...Show more →
I agree with you.
Some things to consider...
Who is the client? Yeah, the kid is the subject, but the person that pays is the client.
Who picks the photog? Sometimes the kid, sometimes the mom. WOM works here in both groups. I've seen mom veto the kids choice, or simpley say "You want that for your wallets then you're paying for that pose" and well, for 10,000 years the golden rule has been working well -he who has the gold makes the rules, so mom wins.
Now kids/parents come in all sorts of types - poor, spoiled, trendy, drug in by their ear, etc. Some interview multiple photogs (really they do!) and some buy on 'what backgrounds you got?' (really, they do). Price is almost always part of the equation.
As for other studios failing to adapt..think of yourself as a business owner making money for 10 years doing X. Now it works, you know it works. If you make changes what will happen? It's risky. Unless sales are falling you will not, should not, change.
If Serg is making money off this style he will not change - and possibly shouldn't change. What I think he'll find out is that this is a limited market and trendy and at 18 he knows what 18 year olds want. But if he's busy and successful in 5 years he'll be out of touch through no fault of his own, it will just happen naturally.
Senior ports are seasonal, so what will he do to make an income the rest of the year? This style won't play well for family portraits IMO, or babies. Might play for kids and pets though.
I offer coffee table books to my seniors and if you shoot like serg they sell - no need to worry about what do to with the oof feet shot. But you also have to shoot for grandma if you want to get into her wallet. 25 years ago "The Thing' was a 16x20 wall port. Those kids are now the parents and they don't want that at all. They thought it was un-cool 20 years ago and so won't buy them now (if offered an alternative). But they will buy a large canvas wrap. Go figure.
I see what you are doing, and why it is fashionable. You have an interesting set here and it seems to represent your subject. I say seems because I don't know him, but I get a very definite feeling of character from the set. I can clearly identify the mindset of a young man who is facing the prospects of being responsible for his own, uncertain future. I also see in #2 RIGHT a pic that depicts his appearance and personality clearly and naturally. This one might just satisfy both criteria of being different and acceptable for a yearbook picture. (It depends upon the school.) It takes thought and effort to be different. Keep up the effort.
jeremy_clay wrote:
Here's a thought - 'Seniors', and teens in general, are more fashion conscious and self-aware then ever before, and are far more likely to have their parents purchase them for their own use and even distrbution versus parents sending them to relatives. Besides prints, web-sized image rights for Facebook/MySpace etc. for the Senior and not the family are valid avenues for income from shooting. Don't believe me? Call a 13 year old on their Blackberry and ask them. As people tell Serg he needs to learn to change and accept the critiques of how he "should" shoot/pose/'connect', there's a lot of people who can't fathom his style does plenty well and stocks clients, and won't acknowledge that - this failure to evolve is worse then one's failure to adapt, IMO....Show more →
I take some truth, wisdom and hope from this remark. When buying seniors, mom generally needs to satisfy the kid, herself, and the requirements of the yearbook. The kid wants different so there is a market for what Sergio is doing. The yearbook wants what Lifetouch offers. (More on that in a second.) Mom's needs likely fall somewhere in the middle, and she is likely to settle for the most appealing selects from the two.
"The yearbook wants what Lifetouch offers." I can hear the blowtorches heating up out there... but it is true. The whole purpose of any formal portrait is to clearly document what people look like at a particular moment in time. It serves to spark our own memories of who that person was then. It must allow us to fill in those details for ourselves, so it must be a simple, fully illuminated face. If the subject's own personality is evident, then you hit the trifecta. It isn't rocket science, it isn't art, and it isn't trendy. It is timeless. The fact that you can apply a simple formula, and teach just about anybody to turn them out quickly is the reason why it can be HUGE business. Those who do that the most efficiently will dominate the marketplace. This is why Lifetouch exists and thrives.
photomarvin wrote:
This thread really leaves a bad taste in my mouth...can you all please discuss this over on dpreview and leave fredmiranda for the useful stuff?!?!?!?
Seriously though...I think all the points have been made and noone is going to change his or her stance. I see nothing but arguing going on. How does this help any of us with our craft?
Can someone please lock this thread?
Robbie
If you're bothered by this thread then don't read it. There's plenty else out there to keep your attention I'm sure.
The OP doesn't seem upset and I think this has been a great discussion.
Where is this industry headed? What effect will the recession have on it?
I think wedding photography and perhaps senior pics are in for a rude awakening - tight money, more people needing a few bucks on the side and tons of digital cameras out there and a lot of the "good enough" mentality.
Most industries have consolidated into a few bit players, but some have not. Will photography move toward that model or what? Depends on how many people choose Serg over yuen li
prof_fate wrote:
If you're bothered by this thread then don't read it. There's plenty else out there to keep your attention I'm sure.
+1 This thread has a lot of great information and should not be locked. Even if the OP doesnt like/listen to any advice on it he clearly stated that he aknowledged and read it back in one of the beginning threads. Maybe it helps him in the future during his next shoot, or maybe it helps someone else. Thats what the threads here are for
I for one think it's great to hear others' thoughts on the subject, and though venomous, it's nice to see the mods have let it go as their is still the exchange of ideas.
you are kidding me right as a parent if i paid $1500 for a senior portrait and have photos of a homeless person or oof shots of their foot, i'd be PISSED
Right, we know that it's not at all to your tastes. But I have a colleague who had a shot of his two sons blown up to 24x36 for an (imo) absurd price and it's shot in a T/S, desat style akin to what the OP has posted. Their is a market, even if it isn't what you like.
FYI, this is so called trend is nothing new.....the PP are actions/filters you can buy. This trend you call it, is glamorized snap shots of people. I see the same type of images on myspace taken with kids using their PS or cell phones. (i do have two teens in my house and sponsored a cheer squad for a high school)
The compositions and T/Sing aren't all just Photoshop tricks, I'm sure you know that. I would love to see you link me some cell phone shots like these, however.
The amount of sour grapes in this thread is ridiculous. So many people telling the OP why his work shouldn't sell when it does...after realizing he does make money, telling him that 'they won't have staying power in 5/10/15 years' (because you all know what his clients will feel in that time)...assuming a youth wouldn't know how to take strong photographs (check his site)...it just seems like a tizzy over someone stealing their clients with work that they do not want to try to understand or appreciate. If a Jackson Pollock doesn't make sense to you, or you don't like it, is it not art? Not valuable? These are abstract photos of Sergs', but no less valid then Strobist lighting tricks or rule of thirds composed shots.
mr_baseball_08 wrote:
This seals the deal. He's just an 18 year old "punk" know it all kid. Give the young grasshopper time.
love the shots serg, your work is awesome, its a style you dont see for seniors alot thats why people want it. all these photographers that do senior portriats, they all seem to look the same to me.
CHeck out the 'effects' from wedding albums from 10 some years ago. The superimposed B&G over a brandy snifter for example. We laugh at that now.
Selective color/touch of color whatever you call it got a big jump in popularity in the ealr MTV era. Most of my clients love it while other folks totally ridicule it.
Textures over images were all the rage a year or to ago and now it's fading from popularity.
It all depends on what YOU want your art, your work, your reputation to be. Trendy sells - always has and always will (pet rocks, hula hoops, beanie babies, etc) and if you can stay on top of the trend then you may make money on the long run.
BUT you run a very large risk of being known for the latest trend which becomes the last trend and suddenly you are to be avoided as 'he's that photog that did the blue thing - that's sooooo last year'.
OK, say you DO keep up with the trends - now what you've done (besides create a lot of work for yourself to stay current, extra costs with always needing new samples, etc) is clients can't be confident in what they might get. "Well, I'd to go to Joe but every year his stuff looks different. I'm not sure what I'll get" and that is a BIG thing for brides that are risking alot of money a year in a advance when there is no way to reshoot it.
Being a trendy photographer is not and never has been the secret to long term success.
Every series you post, I think to myself now way can this be better then last time. You are by far my favorite on this site....I just love your take and style. Your PP is amazing as well.
jeremy_clay wrote:
I for one think it's great to hear others' thoughts on the subject, and though venomous, it's nice to see the mods have let it go as their is still the exchange of ideas.
Right, we know that it's not at all to your tastes. But I have a colleague who had a shot of his two sons blown up to 24x36 for an (imo) absurd price and it's shot in a T/S, desat style akin to what the OP has posted. Their is a market, even if it isn't what you like.
The compositions and T/Sing aren't all just Photoshop tricks, I'm sure you know that. I would love to see you link me some cell phone shots like these, however.
The amount of sour grapes in this thread is ridiculous. So many people telling the OP why his work shouldn't sell when it does...after realizing he does make money, telling him that 'they won't have staying power in 5/10/15 years' (because you all know what his clients will feel in that time)...assuming a youth wouldn't know how to take strong photographs (check his site)...it just seems like a tizzy over someone stealing their clients with work that they do not want to try to understand or appreciate. If a Jackson Pollock doesn't make sense to you, or you don't like it, is it not art? Not valuable? These are abstract photos of Sergs', but no less valid then Strobist lighting tricks or rule of thirds composed shots.
And who the **** are you? A forum alt? GTFO. ...Show more →
mr_baseball_08 wrote:
This seals the deal. He's just an 18 year old "punk" know it all kid. Give the young grasshopper time.
In other words, there's still time to beat him into submission.
Any 18 year old who isn't a "punk" know it all kid probably isn't accomplishing much. Actually, I think Sergio has conducted himself here more maturely than many of those much older. Just because he won't roll over and accept the "wisdom" of those talking down to him doesn't make him a "know it all". Yeah, he's got a couple of brass ones, that's what's got him where he is today. What were you doing when you were 18?
jeremy_clay wrote:
The amount of sour grapes in this thread is ridiculous. So many people telling the OP why his work shouldn't sell when it does...after realizing he does make money, telling him that 'they won't have staying power in 5/10/15 years' (because you all know what his clients will feel in that time)...assuming a youth wouldn't know how to take strong photographs (check his site)...it just seems like a tizzy over someone stealing their clients with work that they do not want to try to understand or appreciate. If a Jackson Pollock doesn't make sense to you, or you don't like it, is it not art? Not valuable? These are abstract photos of Sergs', but no less valid then Strobist lighting tricks or rule of thirds composed shots. ...Show more →
I think more of what people are trying to get across (myself included) is to include more shots that connect the viewer with the subject. Those shots he did that achieved this were very nice and I think he could sell a lot more (provided thats his goal) if he included more shots like this.
Like others have stated he needs to also shoot to sell to the person with the purse strings. I've seen a lot of nice work from Serg and he is a very talented individual. Everyone here is just giving him suggestions to help make him that much better. He doesn't have to listen, but it gives him things to think about during his next shoots, which hopefully will be many.
prof_fate wrote:
I agree with you.
Some things to consider...
Who is the client? Yeah, the kid is the subject, but the person that pays is the client.
...I gotta be honest. If I booked a wedding, and the mother paid for it. And then on the wedding day, the bride and her mom had some disagreement with photos that they wanted...you better bet your ass I'm going to listen to the bride, and not the mother. Sure, the mom paid, but its not the Mom's day. Screw the mom.
I shoot a large number of area seniors here in the midwest. Most students I know would love this set, but the parents not so much. I try to shoot a balance of creative poses and "parent friendly" ones. And I sell both, mostly of location shots. In this area, studio photography isn't as popular. I think it's really a regional thing.
FWIW, I think Sergio did an excellent job with this set.
liza wrote:
I shoot a large number of area seniors here in the midwest. Most students I know would love this set, but the parents not so much. I try to shoot a balance of creative poses and "parent friendly" ones. And I sell both, mostly of location shots. In this area, studio photography isn't as popular. I think it's really a regional thing.
FWIW, I think Sergio did an excellent job with this set.
+904850984309859 finding the balance is KEY if you want to make money.
I went to a place called "Moments" photography when I got my senior pics done (excellent studio) and there were the traditional "for the parents" pics and then the fun trendy pics the kids go for. Hence why a ton of people in my area go to this studio. It pleases both crowds.
jprezant wrote:
...I gotta be honest. If I booked a wedding, and the mother paid for it. And then on the wedding day, the bride and her mom had some disagreement with photos that they wanted...you better bet your ass I'm going to listen to the bride, and not the mother. Sure, the mom paid, but its not the Mom's day. Screw the mom.
Weddings are different in that regard that a senior session on many levels.
I do projection proofing for seniors (and babies and families). Shoot a senior and then take those shots and sit in the room with them, a brother or friend, mom, dad and often grandma or an aunt. You learn a LOT about what people want, family dynamics and what is liked or not and why (expression wise mostly).
Certain types of kids buy certain types of images. The 'in' crowd likes one look, the 'geeks' something different. A family with 5 kids spends differently than one with 1, the first kid is treated differently that the the 3rd of 4, single moms are different from married ones from divorced ones. Kids from certain areas (town vs suburb vs rural) buy very different images depending on what they grew up with.
And if all else fails you can give them back their $50 session fee and let them go elswhere or reshoot to get what they want. (it does happen but it's rare).
I don't know them before hand and rarely get 3 hours to hang out to get inside their head. Mom's can be 30 to 50 years of age and be white trash to old money. And I have to be able to please every type of client, every time
So how do you define success? Making 10 or 15 kids your own age happy over a 2 year span or making 100 very diverse strangers happy year after year?
All we're doing doing is pointing out that while Serg has a good beginning, if he wants to be a success over time he's gonna need to expand on what he shows, how he poses, etc. He may be the alternative today, but in 5 years will he still be able to make a living in photography? Those of us that do make a living are just passing on our wisdom, our experience so that he may grow and prosper. We are not trying to beat a round peg into a square hole.
I don't think we need to tell Sergio what kind of pictures he should take. The pictures are posted for a critique on the photography, not his business model. If he chooses to take pictures in a certain style and there' s market for it, more power to him. The original comments in this thread were good and focused on the pictures.
Somehow we seem to be taking personal shots at each other right now and talking more about whether or not his pictures will sell, or what style he should adopt. That's irrelevant - there will be a market for pretty much anything and it's not for anyone on this forum to decide which is superior.
If Sergio has found his niche and style, good for him. If someone else has found a different style to be better suited for his market, good for them.
Hopefully we can talk about the photography itself, and not try to attack each other and our business models. That goes for both sides - no need to ask Sergio whether he has a business license and no need to post prof_fate's pictures either. Both are irrelevant for the discussion. I said earlier that Sergio shouldn't scare away critics by dismissing their critique. I should add to that and say that don't scare away posters like Sergio by making the thread a free-for-all. Whether I like his style or not, I'm still glad he posted something new.
I have to say, I'm enjoying this thread - there's a lot of good discussion going on (in between the snarky comments :-) ). A request to moderators - please don't lock this thread.
?
LIN at this ownage.