personally, coming from a 26 year young photog, sergio, your work rocks, and I wouldn't hire you for my kids (when I have them). You are right that you have a lot of success with your clients, and for all the right reasons. They are your clients for a reason as someone stated already.
The only thing to say about your age, isn't that "you will learn at 21" or anything stated like that. Just don't stop developing what you already have, and TAKE THE ADVICE of those offering it. You don't have to use it, but always accept graciously what you ask for.
My background is four years apprentice under a fine art photography historian, from Utah state. He is not current, didn't teach me anything about what the market is like, or what "seniors (parents) want". He showed me how to listen to critique, and how if all I hear is praise, I am either not taking the right images to critique, or not listening. You don't have much to learn photographically, but just as all of us do, you do need more learning re: criticism.
prof_fate wrote:
Senior Pictures should make them feel grown up, important, independent, persons of substance, showcase their accomplishments, record them (favorably) at this point in their lives.
I find most traditional 'Seniors' portraits to be quite hilarious. What self-respecting teen wants a picture that makes them look like their parents - it doesn't look cool on Facebook!
Mum can always get the guy at the Mall to take a shot of their beloved with a tree-trunk or railroad as a backdrop, but in today's media age most teens want to present an image to world that they are happy with.
Sergio's work is expressive and artistic. Take an everyday kid and give them a bohemian makeover; kind of cool, don't you think?
What I'd like to see from Sergio is bit more variety, I feel I've seen these shots before, but with different faces - time to expand out a little
The problem with this thread is very simple and I am not taking sides here.
Prof_fate has indeed put across some good ideas, C&C, and yes, like myself, that's what many of us come here for.
However, I felt the way his "initial" post came across was somewhat condersending to the 17yr bloke who original posted the thread. I could be wrong, it could just be me, as sometimes reading e-mails post etc you don't get such a personal feeling however, this was how I read it and quite possible Sergio Mottola did too??
I still stand by my critiques though regardless of age. I greatly dislike when people don't give me honest brutal opinions on things I want C & C on.
Sergio, are you going to be taking your own senior pictures? (Honest question) I don't know if you already graduated or not. I think it would be a great way to advertise
sidewa388 wrote:
The fact is... 99% of people hire us for OUR SKILL and STYLE.
Who is 'us'?
Most folks don't know the difference between a good photo and a bad photo, but they do know what they like and the difference between $100 and $1000.
I have lots of brides that love what I do but can't come up with the cash, even more now with the economy the way it is.
I get quite a few seniors because I am less expensive than some of the other photogs out there (not by a lot, but 10% is still $100-150).
If people hired based on skill and style then walmart/sears/jcpenny/lifetouch wouldn't be in business. those that don't appreciate what we do won't spend the money on it, so they buy based on price alone.
liamh wrote:
I find most traditional 'Seniors' portraits to be quite hilarious. What self-respecting teen wants a picture that makes them look like their parents - it doesn't look cool on Facebook!
Mum can always get the guy at the Mall to take a shot of their beloved with a tree-trunk or railroad as a backdrop, but in today's media age most teens want to present an image to world that they are happy with.
Sergio's work is expressive and artistic. Take an everyday kid and give them a bohemian makeover; kind of cool, don't you think?
What I'd like to see from Sergio is bit more variety, I feel I've seen these shots before, but with different faces - time to expand out a little
...Show more →
Many photogs do indeed do the 'mall look' - why? It sells. If people quit buying it then you'd not be seeing it everyplace, huh?
There are alternatives out there, but there is also the practical aspects of workflow. There are only so many hours in a day and if you want to shoot 200 seniors in 2 months something has to give. And if you can shoot 200 seniors in 2 months with trees and railroads and big foam letters and get a $950 average where is your incentive to change, innovate, creat art? It's not there.
As for serg's lack of variety - that's typical of every photog. I don't like it when I do it myself, buy you have to remember it's new and unique to the client. I have but one sofa, one window, one big tree and one white high key. Same pic for the most part with different people in there. I don't want to do that cause I get bored with it, so I push location location location and special sessions (beach, night, sunset, water). But I can't do 200 seniors in 2 months like this. My hope is the 'style and skill' will cause a line at my door and I can ratchet up my prices so they have to pay for the uniqueness. We'll see how that goes.
One's success depends on their marketing, prices and competiion as much as anything else. I have a couple of really tough competitors here, style wise and they do watch me and other studios and do change what they offer. But the old school 50's style head shot places still do a lot of business. Don't ask me why.
magyarangol wrote:
The problem with this thread is very simple and I am not taking sides here.
Prof_fate has indeed put across some good ideas, C&C, and yes, like myself, that's what many of us come here for.
However, I felt the way his "initial" post came across was somewhat condersending to the 17yr bloke who original posted the thread. I could be wrong, it could just be me, as sometimes reading e-mails post etc you don't get such a personal feeling however, this was how I read it and quite possible Sergio Mottola did too??
Gotta love the way SteadyHand posts eh
I have been pilloried before for my critiques. I will day again - I DO NOT look at the artists age or experience, gear or number of posts on the forum. It does not matter. I am C&C'ing based on the images I see - not his age, rep, experience, paycheck.
A good pose is a good pose regardless of the age of the model or photos, digital or film, flash or nat light, studio or environment. A bad pose is a bad pose for the same reasons.
For 17/18 he's doing wonderfully - i did mention that in a reply. He's got great things ahead of him I"m sure. But he's not there yet with these images. Age may not matter (i've seen bad 50 year old photogs). Experience matters and it's just a lot toughter to have the needed experience at 18 that it is at 35 or 50.
edit...
So we should be nice and pat the yungin's on the back for a job well done (regardless of what we think) ? Following this logically then someone in their 30s should maybe be given a fair C&C and someone in their 50s should be tied to the whipping post? I guess maybe we should be nicer to poor people or minorities or what?
Why can't the art stand on it's own and be critiqued for what it is, not for who made it?
prof_fate: I think you're actually the one taking this thread much too personally. No one is pillorying you for your opinion, they're just disagreeing with it. Just like you disagree with Sergio over whether these are good senior photos.
I think the fundamental difference in what you view as good senior photos and what the Pro-Sergio camp views as good senior photos is a personal preference. From your posts, you describe yourself as a by the numbers, traditional senior photographer because that sells well in your area. There's nothing wrong with that. And if you want to shoot 200 seniors in 2 months, then indeed you DO need to adapt to a more traditional style.
Sergio isn't trying to appeal to your market. He's looking for teens who want something entirely different and for him that is working - for now. I'm not going to say that I think every photo he posted is good. I don't. But it's working for him and his client base so for you to degrade that by saying "Clients don't know a good photo from a bad one" is short-sighted and antagonistic.
His clients likely wouldn't look at in studio work with big foam numbers as good photos or photos which capture their personalities. And your clients would likely look at his work with confusion and possibly outright scorn. But that doesn't mean either client base it uneducated or doesn't know what is "good". Taste in art is subjective and you can't just write off anyone who disagrees with you as uneducated and lacking in taste.
In your initial post, you said "Nice images, great for a model, etc, but not what sells to seniors."
Sergio's clients want images that are nice shots, great for a model. They don't want traditional. He's filling a void in his market. Can he improve within that style. Certainly. But should he conform to the "hug this tree, lean against this foam pillar" style of senior portraiture just because it sells and can be more classically posed/lit? I don't think so.
Not that anyone cares about my opinion, but I usually like Sergio's work and I think he oozes style. WIth that said, I'm not crazy about this current set of pictures... just don't have any shots that make me say wow like I normally do when I look at your work.
Regarding the style thing, just be careful not to make the assumption that Sergio wants to make as much money as possible regardless of the means of getting there. Some photographers are in it to make money (and occasionally make art in the process) while some are in it to make art (and make some money while doing it). Let's not assume that either is right or wrong. There's a need for both.
especially serg if you go through some of his older posts...were you the one who emailed me your work? If you were, I would like to post it here for perspective of your style and ideals in contrast to Serg's.
*edit* nope, not yours. I'd love to see some of your works though. I know you've mentioned in multiple posts how you don't put your www for fear of what would happen with all of the forum members having access to it, but I'd sure love to see some of your shots?
edit x2: Here we go - unless their are two prof_fates?:
First, my personal preference is far from this style. don't like it.
Second, what matter for the photographer is that client is satisfied NOW. from this perspective everything is great. For the client is also at least good, i can imagine over 20 years some of those who like such "different" pictures now could change their prefferences. Some could find these "ridiculous" maybe...Would still be great for them because what they like at one moment define their personality at one moment, is one stage in their becoming mature process...
Such pictures can not only express how a kid looked at some moment but they will remember "how" they were back ...now, what they liked, disliked, how "rebel" they were, etc..
so, overall, this set of pictures acieve both parts involves purposes...
My third observation is related to criticizing this set of pictures...
No matter what these pictures represent for the client and for the photographer, when posting on this forum those things get a different approach....
if not posting just for presenting work but also ask for C&C, is natural that various people to express their perspective and oppinion about the presented material...
For this reason i find prof_fate comments wellcome...some might agree, someobviously disagree, what matter is creator of this thread and those who read it can see a variety of oppinions and judge everything by themselves , according to their needs, experience, perspective, etc..
parintele wrote:
For this reason i find prof_fate comments wellcome...some might agree, someobviously disagree, what matter is creator of this thread and those who read it can see a variety of oppinions and judge everything by themselves , according to their needs, experience, perspective, etc..
Woa Jeremy I'd be careful posting another photogs work...
Ok this thread seems to be going where it shouldn't be going. Everyone seems to be stabbing at prof fate who is offering great advice.
Does the OP HAVE to listen to him? No. Not at all. Is the advice welcome? Yes. Maybe not by the OP but by others who are reading this thread.
We all post on here to get better, hear others opinions of our work, etc. If someone doesn't like it, they shouldn't post, or they should put a big disclaimer saying not to critique. I dont understand why so many on this thread are against hearing different perspectives on someones work. When I post pictures I want to hear EVERYTHING good or bad. All opinions and suggestions are important to me. I'm sure any photographer who wants to learn and grow in their field would feel the same way.
Chrono1081 wrote:
Woa Jeremy I'd be careful posting another photogs work...
Why? I gave him credit - anyone can Google and find the exact same images, at the exact same location in which I posted them - the URLs for these photographs are from HIS profile page - nothing wrong has been done.
Not being put on the pillory huh? Then why are OTHER PEOPLE posting MY work here?
Why am I being called out now? ( did not email/PM you so if someone else did then...)
If you want to see my work I've posted a number of images here https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/758625 - a thread from yesterday. I've been told it's rude to post pics in a thread someone else started for their own images.
Why no WWW here? For the very reason you just did what you did. I've been threatened by member of FM, spammed, electronically attacked - more than once. This is a great place to pat other photogs on the back, but not a good place to actually give critiques. Big egos and thin skins I guess. Perhaps ignorance is bliss and too many people want to remain happy in their own little worlds. Not to sound like i have a big ego or something, but I've turned a dream into a profitable business and some folks seem to take offense at that. If I can do it anyone can do it - and i'm willing to share what I know about doing it. But often when I do I get flamed, PMs out the wazoo, etc.
I'd love to shoot what I want when I want with only me to please. But I have bills to pay. I'm not 17 living at home and I don't have a day job to fall back on. If the client wants to pay me to take a picture of him sitting on the roof of his truck, so be it.
Most everyone would consider Michelango to be a wonderful artist, but he painted what the customer wanted (see Sistine Chapel and numerous other works). There's nothing wrong with that. Van Gogh is another artist we'd conisder very talented but he starved during his lifetime. Yeah, I have a problem with that - I like food, electricity and big screen TV. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Not every image I make is perfect. Hell, the perfect image has to be achieved. Just because I can't make such an image doesn't mean I can't see flaws in my work, or others work. It's how we learn. Perhaps not everyone wants to learn, advance, get better at what they do. I've personally found that making better pictures means making more money. YMMV.
I gave some C&C. I gave some advice on how to improve. So call me what you will. take my advice or ignore it as you see fit. Just please don't attack me for giving it.
I attend various seminars by photogs. They are out teaching others, have decades of experience, make lots of money - all things that imply success. So I go and listen to them. Will I copy them, do exactly as they do/have done? No, of course not. But I might, just might, learn something that I can use to improve my work, my income. You never know where you might learn something.
prof_fate wrote:
Not being put on the pillory huh? Then why are OTHER PEOPLE posting MY work here?
Why am I being called out now? ( did not email/PM you so if someone else did then...)
To show contrasting styles versus opinions. You ripped serg's style, so it adds context to see what your style and background is.
I'm not hosting your images, they are links from your online profile. You were given due credit.
I've been told it's rude to post pics in a thread someone else started for their own images.
I promise you the OP will be okay with this as it adds to the discussion.
Why no WWW here? For the very reason you just did what you did. I've been threatened by member of FM, spammed, electronically attacked - more than once.
That can happen anywhere you have an online profile. I'm not even linking to your personal or business website, but a public, Googleable community site.
prof_fate wrote:
I have been pilloried before for my critiques. I will day again - I DO NOT look at the artists age or experience, gear or number of posts on the forum. It does not matter. I am C&C'ing based on the images I see - not his age, rep, experience, paycheck.
A good pose is a good pose regardless of the age of the model or photos, digital or film, flash or nat light, studio or environment. A bad pose is a bad pose for the same reasons.
For 17/18 he's doing wonderfully - i did mention that in a reply. He's got great things ahead of him I"m sure. But he's not there yet with these images. Age may not matter (i've seen bad 50 year old photogs). Experience matters and it's just a lot toughter to have the needed experience at 18 that it is at 35 or 50.
edit...
So we should be nice and pat the yungin's on the back for a job well done (regardless of what we think) ? Following this logically then someone in their 30s should maybe be given a fair C&C and someone in their 50s should be tied to the whipping post? I guess maybe we should be nicer to poor people or minorities or what?
Why can't the art stand on it's own and be critiqued for what it is, not for who made it? ...Show more →
388 wrote:
And there's nothing wrong with that.