prof_fate wrote:
Is it a matter of lowest price? If so then then style/personality/service don't matter as much. And if LT is growing, then their style if growing in popularity - that means the serg/prof/jeremy style is doomed.
Do you really not see the difference between Lifetouch's exclusive contracts with thousands of school across the country and an independently owned business? They're growing because more and more schools are realizing that they can get huge kickbacks if they force the students to go to Lifetouch.
I would love to know what percentage of Lifetouch's business comes from schools where they have exclusive contracts and what percentage comes from independent clients.
Saying clients prefer Lifetouch's style because more and more students are forced to go to them if they want a photo in the yearbook is silly. I feel like I'm in bizarro world.
My question for you is, if you think client's truly desire and seek out Lifetouch style portraiture - why does Lifetouch feel the need to give kickbacks of up to 50% back to the schools for exclusive contracts? Wouldn't they be better off selling their highly desirable product directly to clients and not giving a very large percentage of sales to a third party?
SeanP wrote:
the comparisons equating the success of a photography business to publically traded congromerates are pointless and silly. photography should not be a commodity
You and I say that perhaps. Talk to lifetouch, sears, jcpenny, walmart..they think differently. They talk with a louder mouth than use (more marketing muscle).
And if you look at most of the school and T&I (youth sports) stuff around here you'd think a lot of small photogs agree. And that's the type of photography that 95% of people ever see (outside of a magazine). It's what they've been buying. Its what they're comfortable with.
CRFTony wrote:
Do you really not see the difference between Lifetouch's exclusive contracts with thousands of school across the country and an independently owned business? They're growing because more and more schools are realizing that they can get huge kickbacks if they force the students to go to Lifetouch.
Uh huh, that's why I say the independent photog is endangered. Walmart put mainstreet out of business. While mom and pop restaurants still exist they are a small market segment and shrinking. I can name 5 chains that have opened restaurants around here in the past 2 years. I cannot name a family ownded restaurant that is new, but I can name many that have closed
CRFTony wrote:
Saying clients prefer Lifetouch's style because more and more students are forced to go to them if they want a photo in the yearbook is silly. I feel like I'm in bizarro world.
Forced may not be accurate. Florida and a few other states are 'contract' or 'closed' states where the only pic in the yearbook is that of the official photog. Here in PA it's pretty wide open - BUT - the photog that has the school contract for all the headshots, football, prom, etc has exclusive access to the students for marketing, mailing, promos, etc. So a senior can go anywhere, but IME 1/2 or more go to the 'school photographer'. Price, convenience or lack of artistic preference I can't say. It's just a fact. And if LT can get the contracts based on price or kickbacks or what have you then their style of photography will slowly prevail.
CRFTony wrote:
My question for you is, if you think client's truly desire and seek out Lifetouch style portraiture - why does Lifetouch feel the need to give kickbacks of up to 50% back to the schools for exclusive contracts? Wouldn't they be better off selling their highly desirable product directly to clients and not giving a very large percentage of sales to a third party?
One guy I took classes from has many school contracts -he's a former LT regional rep or something like that. Took their formula more or less and opened up a shop.
OK, here's the math.
Say it's a school of 1000 kids grade 9-12. LT shoots the little heads (school yearbook pics) and gives the school 50% of the sales. Of those 1000 kids the seniors will buy jack shit. So youv'e got 750 buyers, and perhaps only 60% buy (buy rate drops dramatically as kids age). Might even be lower. If the average sales is $12 perhaps, they get $6 times 400 kids, $1200 for a day's work, less prints which I'm sure they do themselves, so seventy cents a unit. They break even. Fine. they don't care.
They do get say 50% of the seniors, or 125 kids at perhaps $350 a kid? Again, basic packages, no framing, no fancy products, so the cost is low. They get the prom ($15/couple and 200 couples?), they get the sports teams (a few hundred per in profit) and maybe more (other dances, banners for seniors, etc) $50,000 above the part they kick back on. And in most parts of the country 1000 kids in a HS is a small number.
So you roll into town and shoot 4 schools in a week and roll out. Leave a photog behind for some make up shots. $200,000 a week. Sure, I'll kick $4800 back to get that. Every chance I get.
alphakappa wrote:
I had to post something because I was amused by the fact that prof_fate took so much effort to critique the pictures (after all that's why sergio posted the pictures here, right? to get a critique from the community here, some of whom might actually have the experience and insight he himself might lack) and instead of actually trying to see if he has any valid points all sergio does is try to defend himself.
To Sergio: Don't bother to defend yourself - this is not a classroom and you are not being graded. Open your mind to criticism and try to see if the people taking the time and effort to critique you have any good points you can absorb. The people praising you have nothing to offer you in terms of improvement. If you keep defending yourself like this, no one will bother to provide you any constructive criticism.
If you feel that prof_fate was harsh, then welcome to the real world. That's how professionals will view your work, whether or not they tell it to your face.
Again, in the spirit of what I wrote, take this as constructive criticism, and not an attack on you. You have style and talent, but as prof_fate said, you need to make a distinction between creating pure art and fulfilling the needs of your clients. Maybe this client is satisfied with the pictures, but the experienced hands will tell you that what the client wants is not what you want to put up in a art gallery, but something that makes them look the way they want the world to see them.
i will say this, i've seen Walmart images that have more of a connection with the subject, than that of this set. Just because these image have more variety of composition, background, or PS actions...doesn't mean its a better image than that of a Walmart image.
1. the shot of the homeless person...did the parents buy that image?
2. the shot of his oof foot.....did the parents buy that image?
3. the shot of him facing sideways...was that image bought?
i'm curious out of this set....what size were the images bought?
that being said.....for an 18y/o the poster does well. its the response from the poster is what bothers me. if you think Pro Fate is harsh...go read student portfolio critiques from working pros on Sportshooters.
Tony Brown wrote:
this thread has gotten out of hand.
i will say this, i've seen Walmart images that have more of a connection with the subject, than that of this set. Just because these image have more variety of composition, background, or PS actions...doesn't mean its a better image than that of a Walmart image.
1. the shot of the homeless person...did the parents buy that image?
2. the shot of his oof foot.....did the parents buy that image?
3. the shot of him facing sideways...was that image bought?
i'm curious out of this set....what size were the images bought?
that being said.....for an 18y/o the poster does well. its the response from the poster is what bothers me. if you think Pro Fate is harsh...go read student portfolio critiques from working pros on Sportshooters. ...Show more →
This is Serg's style of shooting. The senior or whomever paid him wanted this style shot for them - he delivered. He was paid, not Wal-Mart, not prof_fate, not you. Do you think they paid Serg to shoot like Wal-Mart or other 'classic' senior styles? No. He got the gig due to his style being different. I don't understand how you can say the image isn't as good as Wal-Mart and talk sales when THEY BOOKED HIM. If he books solid for $1500 a student, what does it matter if his style or composition isn't to the tastes of purists?
By looking at the images....does it appear at all there is a connection between subject and the photographer/camera? IMO NO. would you want to be remember with the expression that the subject has on his face? (i hope not...)
By looking at the images....does it appear at all there is a connection between subject and the photographer/camera? IMO NO. would you want to be remember with the expression that the subject has on his face? (i hope not...)
'purists'...i'm far from that.......
you're just wrong. its not about you. and because of that you can't really speak an ounce of truth on the matter.
if he didnt like the photos, would he change his myspace and facebook status to say "I have to give a big thanks to Sergio for my senior pictures! sergiomottola.com"
would he have put a gallery of them on his facebook and myspace? would the student have received more than 10 requests for my contact information?
i don't think you are aware that maybe that is the way his face looks. not everyone has a symmetrical smile like you, homie. the connection was definitely there, because he is making natural expressions. i've actually had to turn down hanging out with the guy because he's been wanting to start a friendship, and i typically dont do that with clients. i captured him the way he looks. and this is from someone who spent 3 hours with him, and can compare them with other photos that he has of himself online.
Serg,
Artists who are unique always get the harshest criticisms and the strongest praise. I'd advise you to take both extremes with a grain of salt. Sort out the good and helpful critiques and don't bother getting worked up about the rest. It's just not worth arguing about. If everyone is booking clients, then why argue?
Serg,
You are a great photographer and you know it. Personally, I don't think this is your best but at the same time I really like this set. I would hire you in a second to shoot my daughters senior pictures. You are unique and that's what makes you... you. Keep them coming, I always enjoy seeing your stuff.
- Steve
I actually wasn't aware that Lifetouch did "all" of the photos in some areas. In my little corner of PA (small world, eh?), they only do the yearbook shots, not the sports, proms, etc. Even there, it varies from school to school. At the big school in my county, they shoot yearbook shots for 6-11. A local photog doesn't have an exclusive deal for seniors, but the school gives him an assembly to address juniors every year. The sports teams are broken up between a few different guys depending on the sports.
Anyway, I've enjoyed the discussion. I'm always struggling to figure out how to appeal to a wider client base. I notice the kids like the more artsy images but mom and dad still buy the more traditional images more often than not. I always figured it was because I live in a very rural area which is about 5 years behind in the times, but maybe the traditional work is still more in demand than I realized.
Let me get this straight.. A parent and grandma would order 24 wallets and 2 5x7's of their sons Senior picture that you cannot tell who he is and half his body is missing and their is a stray person in the picture also..frame it and put it in their living room and call it Brians Senior pictures. Is this what some people are saying? How does a Seniors mom send those wallets and include them in his graduation announcements to friends and family. Last time I checked the Senior is supposed to be included in the portrait. Or is that old fashion and boring portraiture. I dont think the style is effective nor the execution of the style is well done.
brucem48 wrote:
Let me get this straight.. A parent and grandma would order 24 wallets and 2 5x7's of their sons Senior picture that you cannot tell who he is and half his body is missing and their is a stray person in the picture also..frame it and put it in their living room and call it Brians Senior pictures. Is this what some people are saying? How does a Seniors mom send those wallets and include them in his graduation announcements to friends and family. Last time I checked the Senior is supposed to be included in the portrait. Or is that old fashion and boring portraiture. I dont think the style is effective nor the execution of the style is well done....Show more →
Here's a thought - 'Seniors', and teens in general, are more fashion conscious and self-aware then ever before, and are far more likely to have their parents purchase them for their own use and even distrbution versus parents sending them to relatives. Besides prints, web-sized image rights for Facebook/MySpace etc. for the Senior and not the family are valid avenues for income from shooting. Don't believe me? Call a 13 year old on their Blackberry and ask them. As people tell Serg he needs to learn to change and accept the critiques of how he "should" shoot/pose/'connect', there's a lot of people who can't fathom his style does plenty well and stocks clients, and won't acknowledge that - this failure to evolve is worse then one's failure to adapt, IMO.
brucem48 wrote:
Let me get this straight.. A parent and grandma would order 24 wallets and 2 5x7's of their sons Senior picture that you cannot tell who he is and half his body is missing and their is a stray person in the picture also..frame it and put it in their living room and call it Brians Senior pictures. Is this what some people are saying? How does a Seniors mom send those wallets and include them in his graduation announcements to friends and family. Last time I checked the Senior is supposed to be included in the portrait. Or is that old fashion and boring portraiture. I dont think the style is effective nor the execution of the style is well done....Show more →
Once again,
I am 20 years old. I had my senior pictures taken three years ago. I completely agree with this statement. Its a statement I have seen with all of my seniors that I have taken myself.
Although you get a vast majority of people who want to show their pictures online (which is something I have exploited in my own senior business) the parents are still paying for the dang session. You cannot say that any parent would want anything else besides that. My generation is changing the world, yes, but really the parents remain the same and honestly I think bruce has a point. Pictures of OOF feet and a bum in the foreground is cool for the online community because its something different but honestly I cannot see a parent ordering those. I like some of your pictures Serg no doubt but I wonder what the parents say instead of going through you. I can already think and see what the seniors would say...
O and this thread is really starting to make me think different about this forum. lol
Thanks for this debate. It was much needed. Good luck to you Sergio!
Chris
I dislike the color of the processing, it looks, bland. I'm also not a big fan of flare, but that's my personal opinion. I see the stuff you've posted before, and this is good, but not on that level.
I'm not really diggin' this set... and all the hooplah in this thread is just getting silly... so I headed on over to your website to see what else you've got...
And I've got to say, that work is smokin'!!
You've got a nice eye, Serg. And some swanky PS actions to boot.
Sergio Mottola wrote:
you're just wrong. its not about you. and because of that you can't really speak an ounce of truth on the matter.
if he didnt like the photos, would he change his myspace and facebook status to say "I have to give a big thanks to Sergio for my senior pictures! sergiomottola.com"
would he have put a gallery of them on his facebook and myspace? would the student have received more than 10 requests for my contact information?
i don't think you are aware that maybe that is the way his face looks. not everyone has a symmetrical smile like you, homie. the connection was definitely there, because he is making natural expressions. i've actually had to turn down hanging out with the guy because he's been wanting to start a friendship, and i typically dont do that with clients. i captured him the way he looks. and this is from someone who spent 3 hours with him, and can compare them with other photos that he has of himself online....Show more →
"homie"....now why would you call me that? you are very young, so i'm not going to start calling names.
"maybe that is the way his face looks"......its not, photos #8 & 9 are not his natural look, it looks like he just had some "skunk" beer..........you see that from images 1-7.
you spent 3 hours with him and this is all the best stuff from the shoot? the kids are excited about their images good or bad, have you seen the crap images they posts on their facebook or myspace with their p/s's.
If he books solid for $1500 a student, what does it matter if his style or composition isn't to the tastes of purists? 