rickberk wrote:
I don't know about you Big Bad, but I have no intention of killing anyone else's business. There's plenty of room in my market for several of us. .
I have to disagree Rick. How many team photographers are needed in a given city ? One per team, so thats only one job for one person. Theres no room for others. How many photogs are included in your figure of "several" ?
four or five ? Well Im guessing that theres got to be more than four or five other photogs that would like to have the jobs you shoot right ? So unless every person who wants to shoot gets to shoot then theres not enough room for all. Theres always going to be a newcomer wanting to be one of the "several" you talk about.
Every day you cover another event, thats someones else chance that you took. This isnt to say you dont have the right to be there of course.
I know a couple of track photogs who are in very rough times, they arent selling enough to pay their bills for their gear and may need to get a different job. If I get a chance to shoot an event I know they could cover would it be wrong of me to do the event when I know someone else who "needs" it more ?
Lets say theres a photog who's the father of 4, and theres me who's a single guy. We both have equal skills but they only need one photog, should I let that person have it because of their "need" ?
Its too bad that its how it works but its simply the way of the world. I certainly would never do anything to try to make a person lose their job, but Im not going to try to advance my career and limit my skills just so I dont show someone else up either.
NickyD - Love that quote! But it always bothers me, that you can't do anything without trying to do it first. You might do and you might fail, but if you don't try and do it, then how are you ever going to actually do it. !
Still am struggling with the thought of selling photos makes you a pro. I don't think anybody at the high school thinks of me as a pro. So if they need a pro, I would tell them to find someone else (for now), and I have told people, that I would not shoot their wedding, hire a pro.
Sure a pro will charge a lot more, but they are trained professionals (at least I hope so), and will do a better job than I could.
I have of course been "the" photographer for some relatives and friends weddings, and they loved my work. Even had referrals from them, but I turned them down. I am just not comfortable calling my self a pro, need more experience.
So until I decide I am ready to be a pro and charge pro prices, I shouldn't sell prints, unless I sell at professional prices. That is what I am struggling with. Am I really hurting myself, or the market by doing this to start with. I don't see me really hurting the market as I am only working with one school (and their visiting teams). I do think I need to start considering, how I will "raise" my market value.
Again thanks for the comments, it really has started me thinking more than I all ready have. Of course you have really confirm the thoughts that have been circling in my head. (Hence why I found this place) I have investigated prices on sites such as SHutterFly Pro, PhotoRelfect and have noticed 4x6's selling from 2.99 up to 14.99 (maybe higher). While I have already dug my hole for now, I will have to decide what to do.
A pro is simply a person that gets paid for doing photography. It doesnt mean its good photography, in an ideal world you would like to see those who do the best work make the most money but thats far from the truth.
Ive known people who are some of the finest photographers Ive ever seen and they dont sell their work or services. They are not 'pros' but are great photographers.
Ive known people that sell utter crap for $40 for an 8x10 and while they could be consiered a 'pro' they are not a good photographer
You have to remember that in photography as a business, photographic skills are sometimes only a minor part of your sucess. Your skills as a businessman are what really sets you apart
I've read a bunch of this nonsense and I have to say something. What if I have the financial means to sell less than you do? What if my motive to sell isn't the same as your's? Your business is now impacted by my presence. So--do I have to change the way I do things because you're now feeling the financial pinch because someone can and will offer the same or better product that you offer? If you can't compete too bad. Either make it worth it for the buyer or find something else to do. If I can't make do--I disappear and you're right.
I'm tired of reading how the pro's are hurt by the little guy breaking into their business--I'm not trying to because I don't need to. You guys expect the newbies to start pricing their product comparable to your's. That's rediculous! Let them price it how they want. Let them offer something--maybe better than your's?-- and see what happen. Maybe your prices are too high? I've said it and told you I've heard it that some photographers price themselves out of a sale. Well, so much for pricing as the pro do. Let the newbs figure it out for themselves. If they can't deliver you'll know and the customers will come to you.
I love when parents gripe about people "making money off their kids." What exactly are the toy companies doing? The school photographers? Why am I any different? It's just a different activity. They can choose to buy or not. Up to them...
Pat - Interesting that no matter which way you went, somebody got upset. I have approached parents saying, I will have the photos from today's game online at this webiste (hand them the flyer), enjoy the photos. If you would like a print then great, if not enjoy the photos.
What I was hoping for was get my name and work out there, so if somebody wanted to hire me they could. Of course not for a dollar a print. Saying that, maybe I should have stated that at the beginning. What I really want from these High School baseball photos is a door open.
The Big Bad wrote:
I have to disagree Rick. How many team photographers are needed in a given city ? One per team, so thats only one job for one person. Theres no room for others. How many photogs are included in your figure of "several" ?
four or five ? Well Im guessing that theres got to be more than four or five other photogs that would like to have the jobs you shoot right ? So unless every person who wants to shoot gets to shoot then theres not enough room for all. Theres always going to be a newcomer wanting to be one of the "several" you talk about.
Every day you cover another event, thats someones else chance that you took. This isnt to say you dont have the right to be there of course.
I know a couple of track photogs who are in very rough times, they arent selling enough to pay their bills for their gear and may need to get a different job. If I get a chance to shoot an event I know they could cover would it be wrong of me to do the event when I know someone else who "needs" it more ?
Lets say theres a photog who's the father of 4, and theres me who's a single guy. We both have equal skills but they only need one photog, should I let that person have it because of their "need" ?
Its too bad that its how it works but its simply the way of the world. I certainly would never do anything to try to make a person lose their job, but Im not going to try to advance my career and limit my skills just so I dont show someone else up either....Show more →
My market area cosnsists of about 5 million people, from Brooklyn to Montauk. The main soccer league out here has 1500 individual clubs, and over 100,000 kids taking part. I can't possibly handle them all.
I never said turn away business. All I said was don't send the market into a downward trend. I make it a point not to compete on price. I have a set value that my work is worth and that's where it stays. If there are other photogs losing business, they need to look at why. It's not my job to save their business. But it's my responsibility, and better for my own business, to be sure that I keep the market value of "youth sports photography" as high as I can. It only makes sense. I'm not talking $15 vs $20 an 8x10. But $2 for a 5x7 just kills things.
Let me add that in some of the cases in which the parents got mad, we had a kid on the team and I think they thought it was out obligation to provide for free.
RRives wrote:
rickberk - I agree mostly what you are saying. If there was someone around rural Mississippi trying to make a living, I would just give my prints away.
As Scott said, that hole is deep you are in. Lets just say, lawyers would be in touch with you. Seriously.
I dont see how it would be possible to sue someone for giving prints away even if its hurting your business.
Lets say I have no affiliation with a given school. I simply show up and take shots and hope to make money selling those shots to the parents.
A parent of a child who attends the school shoots the games and gives the shots away free of charge, I cant see myself having any right to sue him.
just as I am free to ask $20 or $200 for a print, someone else is free to ask $2 or give them away
I used to umpire little league a while back. I knew a guy there who ran a snack cart. He was there to make money, but the team mothers would take turn bringing snacks for the kids on the team. They were giving away items that he was there trying to sell but how could he contact a laywer to make them stop brining their own items ?
It states in my contracts that my company and myself are the only ones permited to photograph and sell/distribute photos that show either team logos, sports association logos, etc etc. It also states that parents are permitted to photograph from the stands, but all other areas are off limits. Without the right to stop someone from being in breach of my contract, what is the point of signing a contract?
If you come into my area and start shooting for proffit in an area that I have a contract, are notified that I hold the contract and continue to shoot and sell for proffit or start giving photos away then according to the contract I have with the league, I can sue if I choose too. It is basicly the same as a NBA deal. You shoot an NBA game and you try to sell the photos with out permission, they will come after you.
If you are shooting media, then you are all good.
Let me give an example. I shoot media only for high school sports. I can not shoot for parents or web sales. Period. One guy has the contract for the entire state for championship games. Each school has contracts with photographers for the boosters. I can get into any game I want, and shoot whatever I want, and I get aproached all the time for photos, and even if I get a photo that someone really wants to buy, I tell them that I am shooting for media only. They will need to talk to the school or school district contracted photographer. If I do get a photo that I deam worthy of breaking the rules, I contact the photographer of the school and talk to him about it. I usually will come up with a deal that will give me no proffit on the photo. Usually the shot would be of brothers/sisters or a parent in the backgroung while the son hits the game winning shot. Usually there is no problem, but if the contracted photographer has a similar shot, out of respect, I will push his shot, even if mine is better.
The Big Bad wrote:
I dont see how it would be possible to sue someone for giving prints away even if its hurting your business.
just as I am free to ask $20 or $200 for a print, someone else is free to ask $2 or give them away
I used to umpire little league a while back. I knew a guy there who ran a snack cart. He was there to make money, but the team mothers would take turn bringing snacks for the kids on the team. They were giving away items that he was there trying to sell but how could he contact a laywer to make them stop brining their own items ?
First off, yes he can do what he wants. If he wants to give them away he can do that. If he wants to sell them for $2, he can. I simply advised him that it would hurt the very industry he mentioned he hoped to enter, by bringing down the value of his own work. He'd have to work that much harder to make a profit. Finally, the second you put out a sign (or a website) and start charging for a product, you are acting as a professional. The team mom and her pan of brownies is not going to influence the roach the coach guy long term. Sure, he may have a bad day, but no one's going to say that his product isn't worth what he charges. But if a photographer charges $2 for a 5x7 and another one charges $10, the consumer is not readily aware of the differences between one 5x7 and another, even though they may be very different. They just know it's from a "photographer" and next week they'll think the $10 guy is overpriced because they got the $2 5x7 the week before. So now the $10 guy drops his prices and so on. Now Mr $2 decides he wants to do this full time. He knows he needs to raise his prices, but now he's already the cheap guy, and others have dropped to compete with him. He has no upward mobility on his prices because the bar is so low. It takes a good long time to get customers used to price increases, and rarely do they take it nicely. It's much easier to raise the quality of your work to become worth what you charge than to raise your prices to be worth the product you give them.
Give them your best work, show value and be creative. It takes time but does work.
I do action photography part time but my business is growing very
fast and feel in less than a year it will be full time and will need
to hire help soon. This is not a quick business to make a good living
with, it takes time, talent and dedication. But I know it can be
done, others are doing it.
It has taken me over a year and 1/2 to get to this point. This
point being working through parents instead of the school or coach.
Working with teams instead of individuals. What I have been working
on lately is senior or full team action posters for each teammate -- a parent contacts me to take photos to create posters for the seniors or the whole
team that way I know going into it I will make money and of course
if I do a good job I'll be asked year after year and they do and
will recommend you to others. Do a bad job and they will also tell others and no more work.
Already been asked back for all the winter sports I did posters for this year (basketball, wrestling, hockey, competitive cheer, gymnastics and volleyball) and this was my 1st year shooting these sports. Most of these students do other sports in spring so I have already been asked to do baseball,
softball, lacrosse, soccer and track. All you need is one parent on
the team to love your work and they will tell all the others and do
the marketing and selling for you.
Also another thing you may want to do it cover girls' sports more -- I was invited to cover my 1st competitive cheer event, the state
finals of all things this past Saturday. And was surprised at the
lack of attention it received. Division 1 schools of 10 teams each
with at least 20 girls on a team and only 5 photographers. One was a
local high school student covering it for the school paper, 2 from
larger newspapers and the official state champ photographer. For
football the "official state champ" photographers had 4 there and
that was for 2 teams.
The poster I did above for cheer was very well received the coach was so impressed by it that she is going to take a couple of them to the next conference coaches meeting with my business cards since she greatly appreciated these items being available for her girls. Said in 11 years of coaching that she never seen anything like this and wants me to stay in business so that I can offer these to her teams for years to come. I know that wouldn't have happen if just offered action shots only.
Photography is just like sports it takes practice, practice, practice! Start slow, keep learning, be creative, keep reading great forums like this one and it will come.
I personally hate contracts. I definatly dont mean to include you in this group Carl, but far too many photogs Ive known use their contracts as a tool for delivering subpar results. Ive shot for several schools that had a contract photog and that got rid of them because the work went downhill over the season.
Competition is what keeps standards high. I have agreements with the schools that I am allowed to shoot and sell images of their games. Other photogs have come and shot the same games and I accept this, I may not overly like that fact but I personally refuse to be a little crybaby and go running to the AD saying that I feel threatened by the chance of competition and that I want them to make sure Im the only one shooting.
Instead I handle the situation like a man and work that much harder and build that much better relationships with the parents. Parents buy from me because they like my work, they like me and even with a choice of photogs, which sometimes is present they still buy from me.
As long as I keep working hard, I dont need a contract. If someone else shows up and blows me away, more power to them. The parents deserve the right to purchase the best photos.
I strongly belive in the best photog having the job. Its an insult to the craft that someone can sell inferior shots simply because a legal contract wont allow people to buy the better shots.
I choose to put integrity and respect for the craft of photography above my desire to make money. This is my choice and its not to say that its the right choice for everyone. My situation and income sources are different that others. Ive turned down many orders before simply because I felt the shots werent going to be of the quality level I want to deliver while I know other photogs who have sold poster sized prints of a less than 1meg image due to the crop. They wanted the money from the sale more than they cared about the product that bears their name.
There is a level of dedication that you do not seem to mention, and I think it is very important when talking about event photography.
Yes, you can show up to a few games here and there to take photos, but what about when you don't feel like it? or what if you move? what if the big game conflicts with your work, that financially supports you?
Well, who cares. You dont NEED to be there. It's not your job, it's your hobby, and that's where the problem arises.
A real event photographer maintains a level of consistency. If it were my event, nothing short of a natural disaster would stop me from being there. Anything that did stop me from being there means that I would have to find a comparable shooter to work my event in my place, because my goal is to make sure those parents have every opportunity to buy a moment that is important in their's and their kids lives.
The parents never see this, and by the time they do, the guys who really care are out of business, because you, a phase, has decided you were having fun. And when you got bored, or moved, or went to work, the parent's would finally get it, but the event photog that was friendly and just wanted to earn a decent living, is now working in another industry, probly one that he hates, but hey.. he's financially stable.
What if someone did that to you in your line of work. What if I came to your place of work (or if you own your own business, set up shop next door), and offered the same or better service at a third of the price, because as you put it.....
"I have the financial means to sell less than you do?"
How would you feel then? I'm guessing pretty shitty.
Everything affects everything, man. To do this to an already declining industry is fairly detestable in my book.
Sad part is, I bet you're a hell of a guy. Good intentions don't always bring about good results though.
PShizzy wrote:
"I have the financial means to sell less than you do?"
Everything affects everything, man. To do this to an already declining industry is fairly detestable in my book.
Max
Max, looking for a competitive advantage has and always will be what drives business. Why go into business if you dont think you will be able to be more successful than the existing firms ?
In regards to shooting every game, I have to disagree with you here as well. Ive shot every single football game for a school last year, no matter the weather, the distance etc. I made the trip.
I know of none of the local event shooting companies around here that did that. They shoot one game, and then go to another school next week. Its actually really dumb from a business standpoint to waste valuable time shooting the same kids every week.
If I already have 5 shots of a kid to offer, taking 5 more every week really isnt going to increase my chances of selling to the parent. If they want to buy, they will buy one of the 5 most likely. If they dont buy when you offer 5 poses, they probalby wont buy even if you offer 500 poses.
At any given school, theres the parents who buy and those who dont. if I go to a different school each week and can encounter alot more buyers overall.
I choose not to though because of the relationships I have with the AD, the coaches, the parents and the players. They expect to see me there supporting the team and cheering them on. If I didnt show up for a game they would be disapointed, and while that doesnt affect my sales, it affects my personal values.
As I said before, I like money as much as the next guy, but the big picture is that its youth sports. Its about the kids, the love of the game, the craft of photography and my personal morals first and foremost.
If money where my motivation first and foremost you can bet that photography wouldnt be the way Id go about trying to make it.
I'm not trying to make money to make money. I'm trying to enjoy what I do for a living.
I have an AA, and soon a BA, in a somewhat related field, which is how I got the TV job.
Even if they paid me in spades, I knew that one day I would hang myself with my mouse cord.
I love photography, and especially sports photography. I care about the things I shoot. I'm not trying to buy a Bentley, or have an entourage man... I just wanna know that I can live off what I do.
All I want is to wake up every day, knowing that I don't have to worry about money, and that I don't have to hate my job.
But screw it. Let William, and whomever else, do what they please. It is a free country after all.
The idea isn't that eventually I couldnt win the parents over. I'm not scared of competition at all. But if William has an income to live off of, and can afford to take a loss or break even, while I have a minimum dollar amount I need to make to EAT, then how can I possibly compete?
I can't. But ya, who cares. Certainly not William.
Im in the restaurant industry Max, ive worked for owners who were well paid CEO types who thought it would be "fun" to own a restaurant and with their captial, they were able to keep the doors open for a long time dispite poor revenue.
Ive also had friends who saved and saved to get enough money to open their own places. They basically had to use all their capital just to open up and they soon went under because they didnt have a means to pay the bills until the business got better.
What made it harder for these nice folks ? Restaurants with lots of CEO money right down the street competing for the same limited business.
Maybe its not fair, but as they say, life isnt fair
I know staff shooters who get to use their work gear for freelance. Cost me $6200 for a 400 2.8 and I need to sell ALOT of shots to cover that, but they can have that lens for their use free so all the money they make selling shots is just pure income.
Cost me $15,000 in gear just to be on equal terms with someone in regards to gear. I have payments on it I need to worry about meeting, if they dont sell anything or sell cheaper, its still all just profit
basically all we can do is work hard, try our best, be true to ourselves and if its enough its enough. If its not its not. Cant blame anyone but ourselves
I guess I'm a different breed of person. I really do try to look out for my peoples, and think about it in bigger terms than me just having fun. I wouldn't persue this endeavor if I didn't think I had the talent.
I don't mind finding out I'm not as talented as I hoped, but to lose out because I couldn't compete with people with a primary income that supports their hobby...
Like I said, it's a free country. Let em do what they please.
Max, what about if based on your talent, a photog gets fired so that you can fill the position because your work is a higher quality ? How would you feel about that ?
A few of the guys in my freelancers pool, they are fathers and one of them at least is doing it to help with some extra money for his kids college. What do I do it for ? Hmm, money to buy more lenses, money to spend on myself in other ways, captain morgan etc
Do they have any right to get more assignments that I do even if my shots are better because they have more need for the money ?
I certainly think that a kids college fund is more important than capt morgan for me, but to what extent do I stop thinking about my own happiness and needs ?
! 