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Archive 2005 · youth sports business

  
 
fibo
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p.1 #1 · youth sports business


trying to get a youth sports business going. Having no real sports shooting experience, I considered my first shoot at each sport as practice, but handed out flyers and such anyway. However, I'm not but not getting much activity on the website. I'm afraid these are some of my better shots...Tell me what I could do better, considering these pix.....
advice from anyone in the business would be greatly appreciated....



Mar 14, 2005 at 09:26 PM
fibo
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p.1 #2 · youth sports business


oops...looks like I only got one image uploaded...(and way too small)


Mar 14, 2005 at 09:29 PM
fibo
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p.1 #3 · youth sports business


try again.....


Mar 14, 2005 at 09:46 PM
fibo
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p.1 #4 · youth sports business


I'll come back later when I figure out what I'm doing......


Mar 14, 2005 at 09:48 PM
P Alesse
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p.1 #5 · youth sports business


Fibo... save your images to a local folder at 72 dpi and sRGB with dimensions about three quarters the size of your screen. Then just upload it. The first one is indeed too small, but the second one is fine. I'll reserve comment until you post what you want to post.


Mar 14, 2005 at 09:53 PM
Daron Shade
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p.1 #6 · youth sports business


How about spending a few years shooting for the love of shooting, building a good portfolio -- and then after people are coming to you -- think about starting a sports photo business??

The second image is soft, and very unflattering to the kid. I wouldn't want a picture of my daughter with her eyes closed, biting her bottom lip.

Hope this helps -- but foremost, you should only consider starting a business after you have enough experience.


Edited by Daron Shade on Mar 15, 2005 at 09:56 AM GMT



Mar 14, 2005 at 09:55 PM
CTYankee
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p.1 #7 · youth sports business


Hmmm, I'd want to make sure my work was really where I want it before I hand out flyers. Think of it this way. You get a coupon for a new product. You buy it...you hate it. When you see it on sale again will you buy it? No. Why? You didn't like it.

So if people go to your site and don't like your work, then they are far less inclined to go back.

As for the shots...one very good rule of thumb. make sure the face is in focus. The soccer pic has the ball in focus. The face is a bit too soft for my liking. The baseball shot does not have any faces that are easy to recognize. Good action, but not something people are likely to buy. They want themselve/son/daughter in the photo. Good action and a clear view of the face (best if it shows some emotion) are what most people are drawn to.

What I tell people looking to shoot sports is to pick up a few copies of SI. Those pictures are great. Not just great action, but a story. And some of the best sports photos don't even show a ball/stick/goal/etc. They are great shots of people who just happen to be playing a game.



Mar 14, 2005 at 09:56 PM
michaelmcrysta
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p.1 #8 · youth sports business


Parents buy faces. I've been photographing my son's t-ball team this season. It has been a lot of fun (3 year olds with bats and coaches who move quickly...) My best advice is to get in tight and shoot tons of images. Youth sports are awesome though - great access, awesome subjects and they still love the game and play with everything they have. Makes for great stuff. Good luck.

Michael J. McCrystal
Tampa Bay, FL
www.mccrystalimage.com
http://www.mccrystalimage.com/images/2-19-2005%2011-35-06%20AM%20(2).jpg



Mar 14, 2005 at 09:58 PM
Daron Shade
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p.1 #9 · youth sports business


Oh -- and what's your website? That would help us help you...


Mar 14, 2005 at 09:58 PM
fibo
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p.1 #10 · youth sports business


Thanx for the advice/criticism...I know the pix aren't that great, I've been shooting for years with all kinds of equipment, but getting a good sharp action shot is a lot harder than I thought. Here is another..can't seem to upload a folder


Mar 14, 2005 at 10:12 PM
Scott Sewell
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p.1 #11 · youth sports business


CTYankee wrote:
Hmmm, I'd want to make sure my work was really where I want it before I hand out flyers. Think of it this way. You get a coupon for a new product. You buy it...you hate it. When you see it on sale again will you buy it? No. Why? You didn't like it.

So if people go to your site and don't like your work, then they are far less inclined to go back.


This might be some of the best advice you'll get. I would take this really slow and easy and making sure to you can deliver whatever goods you promise (sports, portraits, wedding, all of the above!). Under promise and over deliver is my approach.

To be honest, looking at your PhotoReflect site I'd say you might want to take CTYankee's advice to heart. One of your hockey folders had 320 images in it!! How 'bout posting just 15-20 of your absolute best hockey shots and get to the point of having people calling you asking you to shoot their son or daughter?

The soccer T&I stuff looked okay, but overall the PhotoReflect (i.e. sales/presentation) site needs some work. BTW, what are the "jerk" folders? Two of them. Hmm...do I wanna buy from this photog?

Good luck. I'm sure others will chime in with some bits of advice.



Mar 14, 2005 at 11:02 PM
Carl Auer
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p.1 #12 · youth sports business


If you are serious about doing this, instead of me picking everything apart, let me say, do a search here and at sportsshooter about youth sports or youth sports sales, etc, etc. There is a lot of great info in the archives here. Honestly, I do not like bringing photos to parents that I call sub standard. Sure, people say that as long as there kids face is in a photo, they will buy it. Well, if one of the parents friends see it, they do not look at it the same as the parent would, so always present your best. Never an image that you think you might delete, or one that you spent too long in photoshop fixing it. Honestly, when you shoot 200-500 shots at a event, after deleting the missed shots, then the last thing you want to do is work on them adjusting levels and color and sharpening for web....have the camera set up properly, nail the focus, and bring the parents your absolute best each time out.


Mar 14, 2005 at 11:03 PM
fibo
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p.1 #13 · youth sports business


Thanx Scott. I am thinking long run here. The reason I post all the images is because you never know what someone is going to like. I did weddings for a studio as contract photog yrs ago and some of the stuff I thought was terrible, people would love..and buy! So, I just figured I'm trying to sell to parents, not skilled photographers, so put em up there, cause ya never know what someone is going to like.
I appreciate your advice, I am going to clean up that site, and I'm not going to stop trying to get better. Just have to keep shooting till my skills improve, and I get a higher % of keepers. The D60 and lenses I have are so slow to focus, I often abandon AF for man focus. Not sure what else to do for sports, other than buy better equipment.

Oh, and the "jerk" stuff is some nonsense my former partner put up, and I can't get them off. And Photreflect wants $50 for tech support!

BTW...great forum here, really glad I found you guys.



Mar 14, 2005 at 11:33 PM
The Big Bad
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p.1 #14 · youth sports business


Okay well heres a few points, first and foremost, anyone with the attitude that consist of "well I know its bad, but as long as people buy it......" should not be in the profession.

yes people will often buy poor quality images but this really brings down the whole profession in my opinion. It supports the stereotype that pro photographers arent worth paying good money. Its an unfair generalization but one that seems to linger none the less. You pay someone good money to shoot a wedding for example, $2000 and the shots are horrible, the guest see the shots and agree they are horrible. Suddenly the opinion is that its a ripoff to pay a pro photog $2000 because the shots suck and you could have cousin Jim do it for free and get just as good of results.

What you want ideally is for everyone working in the business to deliver quality images in a professional manner. You want people to see the shots and say "wow" thats definatly worth $2000, we will definatly hire a pro for our wedding instead of using my cousin.


Second, the idea of putting shots "up there because you never know what someone will like" This is a bad idea on two counts. One, parents while not pro photographers still know good images vs bad images. As a whole consumers are getting alot wiser in terms of photography, they have point and shoots, they have home printers, they know what is to be expected. We live in a society that has us encountering thousands of images a day and as a result, we have gotten more picky.

also in regards to this, basically the sum of your work is as strong as the weakest part. If you have 20 bad images for every good image, just in case someone likes it, your overall work looks weak. If you have 30 great images from a game, it looks like your a real talent.

Third, Id afriad to say that your gear just isnt up to par for shooting sports. Your going to have a very very hard time producing good results and you wil have lots of frustartion from great moments missed because of your camera not being able to focus etc.


And last of all, and hopefully not too discouraging is this fact, pretty much every person on this forum basically seems to have a youth sports business. Every person who buys a halfway capable consumer body like a 20D gets the idea that they can sell sports, wedding, portrait or some other image.

Ive shot games before where there have been 3 or 4 different "youth sports photogs". All of them had some basic gear, business cards and a website. Know how many shots they sold ? Zero, know how many I sold ? Three and I shot for this school all the time and used a strobe system.

The market is so absurdly oversatured its not funny. By the time you finish reading this probably anohter person in your town just setup an account on printroom, shutterfly, photoreflect etc and is planning on showing up to games and expecting the money to come pouring in.

$20 for a 8x10, cost you $2, thats $18 each what a great profit right ? Yeah it is, but everyone else has realized this as well, and then theres the guy who says, we'll I'll sell for $10 and take everyones business, and then someone says I'll sell for $5 and then parents expect to pay only $5 and now your making $3 and its not worth your time.

So look, bottom line is this, go ahead and give it a try. Its a funny pursuit at any rate but if your expecting to make money on a regular basis, odds are it wont happen. Thats just the simple truth.

Its like opening a restauratn, sounds fun but its a ton of work and 90% odds are for you failing to stay in business for 3 years.

Again, Im just trying to tell you the truths about the business and things are only getting worse. I wish you the best, but before you sink any money into it, make sure you know what your getting into



Mar 15, 2005 at 01:04 AM
Mongrel
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p.1 #15 · youth sports business


Well...hmmm...errmmm...

Not that the other advice isn't *good*-it is. Carl, CTYankee, and the others all put it out there real good.

But The Big Bad? That should be a sticky at the top of this forum.

I know it knocked me back a few feet-and that's a good thing I think. Hit the proberbial "youth-sports-business" nail right on the head with that post.

I even have the "equipment"-pretty darn good equipment if I may say so. But there's even more to it than that as TBB so eloquently pointed out-lol.

Time to re-think and re-work my plans I believe.

Well, I'm not the OP-but THANKS GUYS!

time for some homework...



Mar 15, 2005 at 03:04 AM
The Big Bad
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p.1 #16 · youth sports business


I'll tell you what, maybe im not the best to listen to on business advice. what are my two sources of income ? The restaurant business and the photo business.

Both great and rewarding lines of work, but also probably the two highest failure rates for new venures as well.

About 90% of new restaurants dont stay in business for even 3 years, I dont know what the figure is for the photo business but it cant be much better.

Most restaurants are making pennies on the dollar and when you consider how much time and equipement cost the average photographer puts into the business its not a surprise alot of guys never even break even.

Ive spent probably $15,000 to 20,000 on photo gear and sure havent made $20,000 in sales. Heck thats just to break even. Where talking about sellling alot of shots to parents here guys



Mar 15, 2005 at 03:16 AM
Mongrel
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p.1 #17 · youth sports business


Hey, nothing wrong with being realistic-which was what I got from your post. Not discouraging-but thought provoking.

I admit, when I started to get positive feedback on my shots it was relatively easy to jump to "hey, I think I'll do this for money!" Without so much as making a dime I started buying-you know-"I NEED THIS" if I'm really going to be a "Pro Youth Sports Photographer". Well, the reality is I bought a 'pro' account at Smugmug, uploaded like 500 pics set prices had someone pass out some flyers to the teams I shot and...and....and...not one sale. Granted this was months after the games were played. I sent samples and flyers with a relative to the teams banquet. Lots of *nice* comments on the samples but no sales. That was my first eye-opener. (NOTE: This was not from games I've shot in my home town, but an hour away where I don't know anyone-not that it matters...much).

This thread just reminded me of a few things I need to set straight before moving forward. I'm in a fairly small town (under 5000), and no one is shooting the local games. My daughters play on several teams in town and it was the other parents who suggested I setup a web page so they can buy prints. This was back in December and I told them I would have it up in time for spring sports.

I believe it's a good opportunity and I am friendly with the youth sports association people, so I do have contacts to work through etc.

Now I need to develop (lol) an efficient workflow to get this stuff out quicker.

The main point, is that this type of photography isn't necessarily *fun*, it's a lot of hard work and no one should go near it thinking anything less.



Mar 15, 2005 at 03:38 AM
The Big Bad
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p.1 #18 · youth sports business


its actually alot of fun until you start thinking of it as a business.

Suddenly that great catch you would of been really happy to have captured pisses you off because the parents didnt buy any of it. What the heck is wrong with them, its a great image, it should sell tons you think to yourself.

Did you meet another photographer and have a nice talk with a new friend, nope, your pissed off someone else showed up who's trying to "steal" your business.

Is that your sons friends dad in the stands with a new 20D ? Uh Oh ! What if he takes some decent shots and gives them to the parents for free, he's on the booster club afterall. THis might cut into your sales.

Etc Etc Etc, when its your business its not really your hobby anymore and keeping it fun gets alot harder.



Mar 15, 2005 at 03:45 AM
P Alesse
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p.1 #19 · youth sports business


Agreeing with TBB and the others about the devaluing of the industry. I'll add a quick 2 cents. As an amateur, hobbyist, or whatever you want to call me and the others that share the same rank... We have more of a responsibility, call it duty, to protect and respect the industry more than the professional photographer. It is our DUTY to not infiltrate the online business with sub-standard photos, CF card dumps, and, WAL-Mart pricing structures, simply because we have the gear and THINK we are photographers.

I don't intend to sell pictures through a personal site until I'm good and ready. Time will tell whether I decide to go in that direction down the road, if at all.

Now, back to the fibo's post...

Pick what you feel is your best shot ever and show it here. That basketball shot is still OOF and you're cutting off the foot. Tell us what settings you are using, focus points, etc and we can take it from there.



Mar 15, 2005 at 06:27 AM
fibo
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p.1 #20 · youth sports business


Wow...this is a tough room......but I appreciate the brutal honesty. I figured the lack of sales was just cause my pictures suck, and my site is dissorganized,and that's a big part of it. But there seems to be a bigger problem...if many of you guys have been down the same road, producing much better images..... man I don't know. And I have seen some beautiful images posted here, I mean SI level stuff. If you can't sell that.........

I don't hope to make a living shooting kids sports, that's like a zillion people who want to be an artist or a singer, or.....the list goes on.
I just want to make a little xtra money with my "hobby". May not happen.

Not sure about the market being over-saturated tho....I have been shooting smaller suburbs, and there is usually no other photographer there, sometimes not even a parent with a good point-n-shoot. So, I think there is some market, if you can get good shots and market well. Just don't know exactly how to do that yet. Work in progess....one thing for sure is I'm going to be more selective about what I post on the website....the're not selling anyway, so might as well show the better shots, treat it as a portfolio, not a sales platform. Maybe parlay that into a few contract jobs with some of the established outfits locally. I have to say though, the images on even the big guys sites here in my area are only so-so at best.Nowhere near as good as I see posted here.

The OOFproblem I think must be the equipment. I usually shoot my D60 and the 75-300 IS, or the Tamron 70-210 2.8. I've had no better results with the 50mm 1.8 or the 24-85 USM, even though that's probably the fastest focusing lens I have. If I set it to "one shot", the shot is gone before it locks on...if I set it at "AI servo", it can't keep up with anything coming directly at me.
Usually have the camera set on TV at least 1/250 indoors with hi-speed synch flash or 1/1000+ outdoors where I have some light.

Anyway, time to step back and reflect...appreciate the reality check.
Everybody have a great day!



Mar 15, 2005 at 08:30 AM
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