Actually, the current leagues I am shooting for, this is their standard contract. Usually, I have to write in something about being the exclusive yadayada, and it is mainly to keep the business mine. If it gets to large for a one person deal, then I have no problem opening it up. But for the most part...
You can sue usually only if it breaches the contract. Most lawsuites never happen because the person being sued usually is just starting out and did not know better, and agree to stop. Lawsuite would really only take place if after you know you are violating a contact between the client(s) and a specific photographer and continue to do so after you are notified through propper channels. Up here it is pretty basic knowledge who is who, but I shot for a company in Seattle that was pretty big and they sued quite a few equally sized groups for "tresspassing"
I can honestly say I have never had to sue anyone, I have made the threat, but only because the person in question was making an fool of himself, and once as a reaction to being threatened myself. I have actually seen one photographer have another physically removed from an arena for breach of contract. I think it is terible, but it happens.
I also remember the day when everyone sat next to each other and we all got along. Still is like that in the media relm usually....at least for me.
But, I am now tired of this thread. It seems like these pop up every so often and everyone gets hot and bothered over it.
Basicly, it boils down to this. Check with the league. If there is a photographer on contract, talk to them. See if they need help. See if it would be ok if you shot for practice only. Heck, I have a couple parents shooting close to me, through the fence, wanting to have me critique their shots sometimes...Youth sports is a business, and while I do it to have fun, because I enjoy it, it is also part of my income, and if someone comes in to undercut me in anyway, and stop or lower my income, I will fight.
I've been in that situation. I don't take someone elses job, because I don't want mine taken away.
If that photographer has screwed up (drinking on the job, hitting on the models, breach of contract), then thats HIS fault, and I didnt take his or her job, they just happened to plug me into a newly vacated position.
I doubt I could take anyones job based on talent alone. This isnt necessarily saying that I dont feel I have the talent; I do believe so, but I don't have the experience a seasoned veteran does.
On top of that, if I were to "take" someones job, trust you me, everyone finds out about it, and the big stink can really leave you in a lurch later on. Never know when that guy you just jacked ends up being a photo editor you wanna work for, or holds some power over you later on.
Nah, I'd pass. I'd tell them why, and hope they would think of me when the time is right.
The Big Bad has nailed it in one hit, If you market yourself on any old pic might be bought, (which it might) everyone else will see what you know is crap and form probably the same opinion, which tranfers to you as a photographer. I have people see my photos at motorcycle track days, some due to pilot error are not as good as I know they should be, yet people still want to buy them. However I will not sell it to them for one reason only and it has nothing to do with money, It has to do with other people seeing the photo and saying Hmmm that's not that good. So in a nutshell post only photos you know are good, simple.
Carl - interesting. Your High Schools have contracted photographers like the NFL, NBA etc....Wow! I have checked with the coach, and the principal at the school and was given permission to do this, so I think I am in the clear.
rick - you make very valid points, and ones that I have been tossing around in my head for the last few weeks since I first posted the photos for sale. While I want to offer good value, I don't want to try an make money at $1.00 a print. I have modified my web site to show that these prices are for a limited time, sort of a Introductory offer. Like when a new gas station opens up and sells gas for a few days for $1.00 less a gallon, just to get people in. Though hard to compare gas and photography. While at first, it started out as just a way for people who purchased my DVD slide show ($20.00) to order prints from the pictures, to baseball photos in a matter of a few weeks, I really should have gave it some more thought.
I have not read all of this thread. I have read most of it and there is alot of good advice here and discussion. I will add my advice for anyone that wants to get into this business:
1) Use good equipment. It will get you much more keepers.
2) Be willing to work your tail off. Parents can tell the difference between an image that was pulled off the CF and printed and one that was: a) composed correctly, b) cropped for best effect, c) color corrected and levels adjusted, d) printed at a decent lab.
3) Don't rely on web-sales exclusively. I spend tons of time at the park and show contact sheets. This is where 90% of my business comes from. I shoot on Saturdays and display the contact sheets during the week. I have copies of everyone's schedule and show up to their night games to deliver, show, and collect new orders.
4) Build relationships with league and parents. Most parents know me. I have an exclusive contract for the baseball league that I mostly shoot. I do not enforce it because most parents do not buy from the other hacks. Mostly because they do not put in the work to get good images but also because they know me and feel a certain level of allegiance.
5) Price your products so that they have perceived value. I rarely have a parent complain about my prices (which are the highest of any photographer in the park) because they know they are worth the price. The few that do complain, I simply explain that I spend an entire day at the park taking pictures, then hours editing them and posting them on-line, incur expenses of printing contact sheets and all this without any guarrantee of selling prints.
6) Take images that isolate a single child in action. I have taken some great action shots that I love but have not sold because they do not show a clear face.
I still have fun doing this, mostly because my wife and I do it together and we share this as a family. If it stops being fun, I'll go back to spending most of my weekends in the everglades chasing birds.
Randy-
It was not my intention to slam you for what you're doing. But nothing frustrates me more than when I see people try to get started and don't realize that long term, they hurt themselves along with an entire market by keeping their prices low "to start". What happens is they get stuck there because it's so hard to raise prices later.
That said, you've gotten a lot of good advice on this board, and your initial post created some great discussion. All I'm saying is, don't sell yourself short.
One last thing- on those grade B shots that parents might want anyway- sure they might, but remember your name is on the shot. Don't sell something that you wouldn't want people to know you did. Because when those parents show their friends, you want them to be impressed. This is how word of mouth spreads, when everyone is impressed. If it's a subpar shot, the person without the emotional attachment will see it as such, and word of mouth won't be nearly as strong, and might even be negative.
Carl Auer wrote:
I also remember the day when everyone sat next to each other and we all got along. Still is like that in the media relm usually....at least for me.
But, I am now tired of this thread. It seems like these pop up every so often and everyone gets hot and bothered over it.
.
I've sadly seen alot of hostility arise even with media shooters at some events anymore. Theres always sour grapes over which publication gets better access than the other, who shot for such and such publication last year but didnt get a callback this year because someone else is doing it or they are running the AP guys images. Its hardly ever "hi, im ____, who are you shoooting for" instead its "who are you shoooting for ?" with a nasty overtone.
Maybe some guys have good reasons for the hurt feelings, such as their publication they shoot for for 15 years started to use AP as part of its new ownership/managment and they now have to shoot for some little small time outfit that pays them alot less. Maybe they are with a wire and another photog got his shots up a half hour sooner and got several of them picked up even though the photog who waited had better shots.
Photog's are a very fickle, insecure group as a whole. For every nice guy Ive met Ive been a guy who was visiblely unnerved because my lens was bigger than his or something stupid like that. Ive had people come up and brag and basically insult the gear/lens I had when I only had a 10D to apparently make themselves feel better, or if they used a different brand of camera. Its absurd but its happened.
Ive done alot of different things in my life, guitar, racing etc and never have I seen the pettiness of photography. Gibson or PRS guitar ? who cares, Honda or Mitshibishi ? who cares, Coke or Pepsi ? who cares, but Nikon or Canon, Canon or Sigma, that gets people upset sometimes and you just dont see that in other area's.
For me though, if people are getting hot and bothered, thats a good thing. It means to me that I must be doing something right in terms of my business and my photographic skills.
Ive seen the young girl from the yearbook go shoot a game and she doenst have a clue what to do. She isnt seen as a "threat" and all the photogs are nice as can be to her, help her out, even let your borrow lenses, stand next to them etc. Show up with some nice gear for another publication though and half those guys wont give you the same treatment. I've seen guys purposely stand in other peoples way, try to put their bags down to take up more space etc
Basically it comes down to they feel they cant compete with you photographically, so they are going to try to intimidate you or use legal means to do so.
I think they way other photog react to compeition is just how most of us react to our wives/girlfriends male friends.
we hear about such and such guy she knows from school, or from the office etc. They are just friends and we trust our wives/girlfriends of course, but we still naturally have to feel jealous, threatened etc.
when we finally meet the guy and see he's some short, overweight balding guy with glasses (or something to that effect) suddenly we dont feel as threatened. We like the guy ourselves probably.
however if we meet that guy and he's some great looking 6 foot 4" guy who works out daily, drives a great car etc we dont like him. He can be as cool as can be to us but we dont like him because he makes us feel insecure.
Thats the same as it is with photogrpahy. If someone is there with nice gear and great photos, we dont like them because we feel threatened.
I think there's another side to it. When I go to America West, I know damn near everyone. I know the team photogs, and most of the locals. I know the security guards who work the venue, and the caterers, on a first name basis.
Have you ever thought to make the first move? I try not to annoy anyone, but when the opportunity arises, I always try to introduce myself, and when anything that might be taken the wrong way happens, I explain myself as needed.
I don't know how often or how long you've covered pro sports, but it takes time. That's where consistency is key. You keep showing up to a venue and eventually everyone knows who you are. I trade lenses with some of the guys, and when there's an obvious newb there (friend of a friend, or first timer), I try to offer some advice, because I was there at some point.
I never wanna be the crabby photographer. The day I don't enjoy going to a game to shoot is the day I decide to hang it up. My goal is to love what I do for a living, and if I don't love it, then I might as well go into an industry I don't like that will net me more money.
Do all photogs share the same idea? nah. But I don't let that phase me, because I will be here for a while to come, so if I just take after that, then the trend will continue. I doubt I'll make a grand change, but I do notice the immediate effects. I get some more leeway at some venues. I never feel uncomfortable at events, and sometimes someone saves me a cookie before they run out at the break room =)
