We tried shooting everything in sight and put them online. They didn't come. Then we got smart and started shooting by invitation only, and put them online. We were promised great things. But we had them online and people quickly figured why buy when they can look for free. Now we are only shooting by invitation with advance agreements for TnI and Posters, and the pix don't stay online very long.
We are still not getting rich but making more than we were and working at it alot less.
For new referrals, we charge a fee per game to shoot and they can use the money towards their orders, only after we prove ourselves do we work out the more indepth agreements. When shooting a new venue, we tell them that some places are impossible to shoot and if we determine that be the case, we'll just leave and they owe nothing.
Another thing, there is more than one other fotog in town that offers the pre-canned posters as you see above, so we end up designing our own just to be different.
CMorrison - I see that you use the Sigma 120-300 2.8, how well does it wok on your 20D? I am looking to either add this lens or either the 70-200 2.8 (Sigma or Canon)?
By the way I have just join here, and this thread is the reason. Last October when I first got my 300D, I wanted to try it out. So it happen to be homecoming at the High School. Well I went and shot some photos of the game from over the fence, none really great. Put them on a DVD, with some theme music and my wife loved it. She took it to school with her (see teaches at the middle school) and one of her co-workers and best friends son is the quaterback and a senior. She just had a fit. Wanted me to come to the last two games and shot some more, arranged for me to shot from the sidelines and I put together a DVD, which featured the Seniors of the Football team, Cheerleaders and Band. While sales where not great, I did sale a few. Now I am shooting the baseball games. I have sold several prints.
Now I know the true professionals are going to spit on me when I say I sell a 4x6 for just $1.00 and 5x7 for just $2.00 bucks, but I am not really trying to make money. Sure I hand out flyers and my wife sits at a table and shows the photos from previous games, but I want to share my photos and maybe re-coup a little of my expense. Most important is I want the students to be able to purchase prints, (and I have sold prints to students).
What I want is to offer my photos to people that might want it, while I develop my skills.
Here is one of my favorites. It is a cropped version. While I have many of what I call parent shots, I think I have a few "good" ones also. While I don't show all my photos that I take I do show over half to 3 quarters of what I shoot. I do worry about showing sub-quality work, but when parents send me request to go the JV game to shoot their kid, and I have people come up to me and say "keep up the good work" I think I am making in-roads to what I hope may become at least a part-time photography business.
We design all our own stuff too. Also, we never ever shoot anything uninvited, and if its a parent that invites us, we then get clearance from the league board before we show up. Everything tends to go much smoother when people know who we are and why we're there.
I second what Pat says... I have tried the mass shooting approach and found that its alot of time with no guarantee purchases. I am aiming at the higher end client and producing work worthy of charging $200 on some Items. You must develop a repore with the league so that you will be allowed to do mailings, promos etc. prior to the season.
I also agree with Rick about 8 x10 getting old after a while. You need to have repeat customers and new products to enitce them to buy annually. Here is a sample of a $200 dollar product.. Good Luck
Now I know the true professionals are going to spit on me when I say I sell a 4x6 for just $1.00 and 5x7 for just $2.00 bucks, but I am not really trying to make money. Sure I hand out flyers and my wife sits at a table and shows the photos from previous games, but I want to share my photos and maybe re-coup a little of my expense. Most important is I want the students to be able to purchase prints, (and I have sold prints to students).
What I want is to offer my photos to people that might want it, while I develop my skills.
You're darn right I am. Look, either you're a professional, or an amateur. if you're going to sell the stuff, sell it at market rate and let the parents decide if it's worth it. You wanna share your photos? Fine. Give them away. But to sell them, even if at dirt cheap prices, puts you down as a pro in most consumers' minds. Then when they show up at my tournament and I don't offer 4x6's (too unprofessional looking and not enough profit in them), and a 5x7 is $10, they call me overpriced.
Wanna develop your skills? Fine, go right ahead. If someone wants to buy a print, charge what it's worth. But to offer prints for next to nothing kills business for everyone. Thank God you're nowhere near me, but i pity the pro in the next town trying to feed his family while you're "not really trying to make money."
By the way, I'll guarantee, after materials, time, shipping, and customer service, that 4x6 you charged a buck for is costing you about $3. So much for recouping your expenses.
Edited by rickberk on Mar 15, 2005 at 10:36 PM GMT
rwhsurf - I really like what you have done here, and I agree that this type of work is what it will take to stay in business. Most parents once that have one or two 8x10's of little Johnny batting, or making a catch you are through with that family.
Of course right now I am not so much a professional photographer as someone that is doing the shooting for parents, the school year book, and just charging just a little bit of money, to help pay for better gear. Some parents want to watch the game and not be bother with taking pictures. While they would most likely not pay 9.00 + dollars for a 4x6 print they might order 10+ prints at a dollar each. Not really a recipe for making money, but it helps while I learn.
rickberk - I agree mostly what you are saying. If there was someone around rural Mississippi trying to make a living, I would just give my prints away. Of course I am only shooting at the local county school with a Senior class of maybe 90 students. No, tournaments, no other photographers, heck even the local paper doesn't come out and shoot the games. So who am I hurting? But I am helping parents, students and so forth. I state on my web site that if I was doing this for a living, there is no way I could survive at these prices.
Who is going to see my Web site? Maybe a few of you will visit, give pointers or tell me to jump in a lake I don't know.
Of course I may be hurting myself, as it will be hard to raise prices, but most of the people I deal with are local and understand what I am doing I don't think it will be a major problem.
I do charge shipping for each order, so I have that cost+some covered.
Randy my brother.... I am a god loving man... so I wish nothing bad onto anyone, but this would make some Pros furious to put it mildly that try to make a living at this. Rick has more than a slight point here... You need to Value your services if not for yourself, for the others that do this as a profession. Photography is a skill and you should be compensated for your talents. After all these kids probabally drop $10 to 15 bucks on lunch everyday. A photo like yours at that price is a bargain...
PS. If you want a 1 series camera and a 400 2.8 "you aint going to get it selling your prints for a buck." peace, Rog
Randy, don't want to seem like I'm piling on, but I've gotta agree with Rick. I'm not sure why you even both selling them for a dollar?
I guess one can go with a Wal-Mart mentality and sell cheap prints, or go with a little more upscale mentality and sell nice photos for what they might be worth.
Thanks for the comments folks. So you think that I should give the photos away, while I learn. Offer them for just on-line view and don't try to sell them for anything? I am honestly a total newb at this, just a person who loves sports and photography as stated on my web site: Here is the "Why I do this" from by web site
I love photography!! I love sports!! So this is a prefect combination for me. I also am working on starting a part-time photography business. So what does this mean for you. Well since I am still learning, and not relying on photography for my income, you get to enjoy (or at least I hope you enjoy) the pictures I take here on my Web site. Are all the pictures something I would normally sell, if I were running a full-time photography business? Well NO! But, if I were running a photography business I couldn't afford to sell the prints for a $1.00 either. So while some pictures are professional quality many are not. It is my goal to share the pictures I take, whether they would sell or not. If you would like prints, then great!, please by all means order some prints. This is also a great chance to get pictures of your children, grand-children, niece, nephew, the kid next door without the hassle of lugging your camera around, getting the film developed and hoping you get a couple of good pictures. I mean for as little as $1.00 per print, you can't buy and develop your own pictures for much less.
If you think this is a bad ideal, or if I am hurting the business, then I will have re-think my philosophy. How does one value their work? While a 4x6 may cost me $0.20 cents to get printed, what would be a reasonable price (remember I am in Rural Mississippi)?
ps - I do have sports shooting experience, as I worked as the sports editor/photographer for the college yearbook while in school.
Randy, with all due respect, the hole is getting deeper!
What concerns me most is: "I'm also am working on starting a part-time photography business." As one who's worked with hundreds and hundreds of small businesses for most of the past 15 years, I have to say that selling prints at $1 each is not part of most photo business models for long-term success.
This isn't the place to get into the details of even the most basic business plan. But what I would suggest in this forum is that you take a few steps back and really think about what you're doing and how you're doing it.
How 'bout just fine-tuning those photography skills? Don't sell or give away anything until you get to the point that people see that your images are so good that they'll glady pay $6, $7 or maybe even $9 for a 4x6. Even in rural Mississippi. A good photo is a good photo...doesn't matter where you're at. Do ya think Cadillacs sell any cheaper in rural Mississippi than they do in Chicago? Probably not much difference.
If you've got kids of your own, shoot everything of them you can and make nice prints and posters for them. Use their activities and photos of them to make yourself better and build a portfolio that you can really use to "sell". If you don't have kids of your own to shoot, find a niece or nephew or a neighbor kid(s) and shoot a few of their activities when you're ready to start selling.
I'm guessing you get my point. I don't want to sound discouraging or--like I said earlier--I don't want to seem like I'm piling on. I just think you might be best served if you take a few steps back and think this through a little more.
On the other hand, if you decide you don't want to do this even as a part-time business, forget everything I just said and just give those 4x6 prints away!
Randy-
The bottom line is if it has value to the people who want the pics, they should be willing to pay for them, and pay a reasonable price. What is reasonable? One that they can and will pay for such an item, and one that you make a profit on.
A few points:
1. You aren't selling a 20 cent piece of paper. You're selling a memory. You're selling an image that presumably no one else has. So stop worrying about the fact that a 4x6 costs 20 cents for you. How much is the mailer the print goes in? How much time does it take for you to inspect and make sure the print meets your standards? To put the print in the mailer? It adds up.
2.Think about your equipment costs. What happens if you take a foul ball off your lens? Are you insured? If so, what's that cost you per day? Factor that in. If not, what's a new camera and lens going to cost you if it breaks?
3. Think about your time. How long do you spend shooting? Editing? Printing? Running to and from the lab, or the post office? Or uploading files?
4. How much is your web space costing you? How much did you pay to register the name?
5. How much time and money did you invest in learning to become a photographer? Doctors get paid big bucks because of all the time in med school.
6. What are the going rates in your area? If there's no one doing anything similar, do a web search and find people in the same state. I found a couple of guys from Mississippi doing similar events. One is charging $49 an 8x10! I doubt if he's selling many at that price, but he only needs to sell two to make the same money that would take you 100 4x6's for. I found another guy doing two 4x6's for $8. Still cheap, IMO, but it's a different market than where I am so it may be ok. Another guy gets $10 a 5x7, and $20 for an 8x10. $30 for 11x14. This is called market research, and if you're starting up a business, this is what you need to do.
7. EDIT YOUR PHOTOS! Why show people shots that you yourself admit might be substandard? That's the great thing about being a photographer and editing your stuff- no one knows that you screwed up! If you show people only the Grade A stuff, they will think you are a Grade A shooter, and pay you that way.
Well, I hope this helps. I'm all for starting a business, but for God's sake, don't kill the market your entering before you even get started. Hone your craft, do your research, get organized, and get started.
I say sell for whatever you want to sell for because thats free enterprise and thats the whole reason any of us are able to sell youth sports shots in the first place.
Its just hypocritical otherwise to talk about hurting someones livelyhood because I think thats most of our goals.
I'll be perfectly blunt and say that if I could take a pro's job for a large publication I most definatly would do it. My getting the job means that whoever had it either was fired, retired, quit etc but I cant worry about that.
What do you do when you go to a job interview and see a few other people waiting to be interviewed as well, tell the person doing the hiring that your declining because you dont want to hurt someone elses chances for a career ?
I mean nobody any personal ill-will but if I can force other people out of business, take all their freelance jobs etc that means I'm doing well. For each job I get, someone doesnt get it. I get a large percentage of the jobs being offered in town, someone else maybe has to switch careers.
Would anyone turn down a job just so someone else could work for a change ? I wouldnt, my working and taking that job lets me provide for my family.
So while yes, I dont really like people selling crap, selling prints for a $1 etc but I've got to respect their rights to do so.
Last thing I want is unionized photography. It may mean that prices are set and standards are high, but it means that no one else will be able to get a chance to shoot because those existing members will make sure they are the ones getting the jobs. If your not a union memeber you cant shoot, and if you cant shoot, you cant out perform someone else. Anyone who's doing well for themselves right now obviously is going to want to keep things the way they are and who can blame them. These people dont want competition, who would.
So despite so of the drawbacks, our free enterprise system where we can shoot what we want, charge as much as we want etc really is something we should stop and be thankful for.
how successful I am ultimately comes down to just ME and I wouldnt want it any other way.
Hey if I was worrying about piling on, I would not have gotten on the playing field. lol. I am a rookie that may be setting (most likely setting a bad) precedence for myself. So lets say that re-think this, and try and recover from a rookie mistake.
Really, I am glad I found this resource, as you can tell, I need to learn the business of photography as well.
Got to do some thinking and see how I can get out of this gracefully. I really appreciate the info and thoughts expressed.
Good point about the Cadillacs, but they do sell Big Macs cheaper, have you priced a Big Mac in a big city. They are higher.
Like Yoda says, "Do or Do Not, but there is no Try."
Be a professional. Learn the craft. Learn the business. If you love photography, and hope to some day make a living at it, do yourself a favor, and don't bring down market rates. Understand why photographers charge what they do, and why it is worth it to pay a professional.
All of you who buy cameras, and take pictures and sell them... Well, you might become skilled picture takers, but will you ever really feel like a photographer? Amateurs believe that if they make a good exposure, and capture an okay moment, that they've taken a good picture. Professionals know that by understanding the light and shadows, controlling the exposure, and capturing critical details make great photographs.
If you truly have a respect for photography, you might want to delve a little deeper than trying to sell Little Johnny's Mom a $1 print. Or, you can remain an amateur, low-ball everyone... You might even make a living at it. But, at some point your earning potential will top out. You will become known as a hack. And worst of all, you will be forever known as the "cheap guy", and you will never be able to raise your rates.
Don't be discouraged by these words. Be encouraged in knowing that there are professionals out there that are willing to steer you in the right direction. Be excited in discovering a whole new world of photography, and learning new skills and techniques that you haven't even imagined yet. Develop yourself into a craftsman as a professional photographer.
rickberk - I guess I really put the cart in front of the horse. I really started this as a favor for my wife's friend, and thought, hey if I can get a dollar or two why not. Then maybe it will work into a part-time business. You know try and get my name out there. Your point about showing only your best work, is another thing that I have been fighting myself about. One hand, show only grade A work, but since right now I am more about sharing than business, I think what about that Mom that would like that Grade B photo and be just proud to own it. I guess I have to decide, am I business or not. No half-way.
Big-Bad - Thanks for your comments, and while I am having 2nd thoughts at selling prints (or at least selling so cheap), I to share your feelings, that free enterprise is what makes this country great. What I have to reconcile is weather I want to be the "friend" that offers prints at give-a-prices, or charge more and be taken more seriously, or just not try and sale at all.
This is great stuff, and is giving me plently to ponder.
The Big Bad wrote:
I say sell for whatever you want to sell for because thats free enterprise and thats the whole reason any of us are able to sell youth sports shots in the first place.
Its just hypocritical otherwise to talk about hurting someones livelyhood because I think thats most of our goals.
I don't know about you Big Bad, but I have no intention of killing anyone else's business. There's plenty of room in my market for several of us. My goal is to do the best job I can. If someone else can't hold on to their customers, then that's their problem. To be honest, I don't worry too much about my competition. My long term success depends on me and my partner providing good service and product.
The point we were all making was that at $1 per 4x6, he'll bring market prices down, and ultimately hurt his own aspirations to start a business, which he himself says he wants to do.
lots of people like to complain about free enterprise, about how evil WalMart is etc but Im willing to bet none of those people have lived where there are only state controlled retail outlets with outrageous prices and shortages.
the free enterprise system is what makes it possible for all of use to have the ability to buy these expensive camera's we all love, to have a choice in where to buy, a wide selection of brands etc.
maybe it does hurt me as a photographer that anyone can decide to be my competitior but then again, I at some point decided to become someone elses competitior and the fact I'm able to make that choice for myself is pretty nice in itself. I could only imagine living where I am told what my career is going to be and not have any say in the matter.
sorry if this has gotten a little away from photography but its simply a reminder to us all how luckily we really are to be able to have a youth sports business as a potential income source
We shoot high school sports for fun and last year we were offering prints for sale. Some of the parents were mad thinking we were trying to make money off their kids. So we quit selling any of the high school sports stuff, we just put them online in a 'flash' presentation so they would be harder to hijack.
All of the parents and kids could look for free, of course that made some of them mad that they could no longer buy them.
But some of our biggest customers are those same parents whose kids play sports outside of school.
By the way we started selling too cheap, and found that the same people that would pay $3 for a 4 x 6 will pay $5.
