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Archive 2005 · youth sports business

  
 
Arn_
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p.2 #1 · youth sports business


its actually alot of fun until you start thinking of it as a business

well said . . .



Mar 15, 2005 at 11:04 AM
jc1d
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p.2 #2 · youth sports business


The Big Bad wrote:
its actually alot of fun until you start thinking of it as a business.

Suddenly that great catch you would of been really happy to have captured pisses you off because the parents didnt buy any of it. What the heck is wrong with them, its a great image, it should sell tons you think to yourself.

Did you meet another photographer and have a nice talk with a new friend, nope, your pissed off someone else showed up who's trying to "steal" your business.

Is that your sons friends dad in the stands with a new 20D ? Uh Oh
...Show more

Exactly!



Mar 15, 2005 at 12:10 PM
jc1d
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p.2 #3 · youth sports business


CPL_Photos wrote:
I'll add a quick 2 cents. As an amateur, hobbyist, or whatever you want to call me and the others that share the same rank... We have more of a responsibility, call it duty, to protect and respect the industry more than the professional photographer. It is our DUTY to not infiltrate the online business with sub-standard photos, CF card dumps, and, WAL-Mart pricing structures, simply because we have the gear and THINK we are photographers.

.



Rediculous




Mar 15, 2005 at 12:13 PM
tipit008
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p.2 #4 · youth sports business


Well, I understand your enthousiasm. I recently went to shoot a ski race for fun with my 20D, had many parents ask me for shots, went to another race and ended up in selling about $1000 worth or prints.

I was lucky since there are many other photographers that do this but their work is very mediocre and the parents saw my work as very different than what they were used to. I doubt I'll sell this much on every race, but I do have fun doing it... and, yes, selling the photos too.

You basically have to be good at what you do and also market yourself well. Lack in one of the two, and you won't last long. You have to offer something the basic parent with a PS or even a current digital SLR can't do.

Marc P.

Edited by tipit008 on Mar 16, 2005 at 02:05 AM GMT



Mar 15, 2005 at 12:44 PM
The Big Bad
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p.2 #5 · youth sports business


wow, I guess ski racing is where its at. Id be lucky to make $1000 off an entire season of basketball etc for a given team


Mar 15, 2005 at 12:56 PM
Arn_
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p.2 #6 · youth sports business


tipit008 wrote:
Well, I understand your enthousiasm. I recently went to shoot a ski race for fun with my 20D, had many parents ask me for shots, went to another race and ended up in selling about $1000 worth or prints.

I was lucky since there are many other photographers that do this but their work is very mediocre and the parents saw my work as very different than what they were used to. I doubt I'll sell this much on every race, but I do have fun doing it... and, yes, selling the photos too.

You basically have to be good at what
...Show more


If you'd like to share . . .

What size prints were you selling and for how much



Mar 15, 2005 at 01:12 PM
slapshot-66
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p.2 #7 · youth sports business


Well, I guess I will chime in as a semi-newbie in the world of sports photography.

I think it is VERY good to hear that the so called pros in your area are "so-so" at best. That is a wonderful opportunity to jump in and take some of the market, but don't go in as another "so-so" photographer. Spend some time getting to know the ropes and invest in some quality gear and it sounds like you have a great chance to be very successful. Just remember that you only have one chance to make a first impression.

I was in a similar situation with sports T&I photography and I started my business with the goal that we were going to provide the best service, the best products, at fair market prices. Having been a graphic designer for years, I decided to separate myself from the others by creating custom digital products for the organizations. For example our digital memory mates have their logo, colors, and are sports specific. The organizations (and more importantly the parents) love our work. We did about $25K in business in the first year (which isn't bad for part time) and so far EVERY organization we have worked for has hired us back for next year. But keep in mind it is a lot of work and very little "behind the camera" time. I spend 70% of my time post processing, marketing, ordering, and delivering prints.

I know I might catch a little flack for this, but we use digital Rebels for our business. They perform very well in a T&I setting, they are cheap and because we don't print larger than 8X10, the image quality is perfect. In short...they do the job..Most of the time we even use the 50mm 1.8 lenses...so it isn't exactly how much you spend on gear, it a matter of getting gear that fits your needs. I "volunteer" to shoot action work with a Rebel and 200L 2.8 prime on occasion, but the Rebel is really lacking in that area.

Just my 2 cents I suppose....



Mar 15, 2005 at 02:39 PM
tipit008
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p.2 #8 · youth sports business


Well, it seems that parents of skiers have lots of $$$. I'm surprised at how many high priced SUVs and BMWs I see at these races. On top of that, the photographers that have been doing this for the past year have 10Ds, Nikon D100s and 70-200 lenses. While not a pro per say, I do have an upper hand with my 20D and my sigma 120-300f/2.8. I agree that your product has to be good. I may have sold about $1000 in prints (CANADIAN funds, don't forget), but the base of clients is rather limited and, as another photographer pointed out to me, parents aren't going to buy a photo at every race.

As for prices (canadian $), I sell 5X7s $15, 8X10s $20 and 13X19s $40. Shipping to clients is free if they order more than one photo. My web site is very, very basic as I just don't have time to invest in it. I do work on the quality of photos though.

I also have a dilemma right now. I shot three races this weekend, one of them using my Sigma 120-300 along with a 1.4X converter. This race was with really young racers wearing very even and dark colored plain winter coats (as opposed to the usual contrasty racing gear the older kids wear). AF was not that good and most of the photos didn't turn out well (slightly out of focus, a lot of CA, etc.). I don't know if I should put them up anyway, at least some of the more acceptable photos (good for a 5X7) or just forget this race all together.

Marc P.



Mar 15, 2005 at 03:16 PM
rickberk
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p.2 #9 · youth sports business


Fibo-
First off, you're getting a lot of good advice in this forum. Second, I would agree with the others, of the three shots you showed here, not one would have made it as an example of my work. I will admit there are probbaly more than a few available like that on my website, but when you shoot 20,000 images in a weekend, a few baddies are bound to get past the editing process. The goal is to minimize that.
Now, I am a youth sports photo business. My partner and I are entering our third full year together, and this is my fourth year overall in the biz. It's a long haul from startup to profitability, and we're still not there yet. That said, we can see the light at the end of the tunnel, and that's a good thing. I come from 7 years of shooting pro sports, so this was a natural for me. That hasn't made it any easier. The Big Bad makes some great points. Nothing frustrates me more than when I have a killer shot of the diving catch, than when it just goes sitting. That said, I've sold more than not.
There's more to this biz than just shooting. You have to find the right price point. You have to market. Handing out cards and flyers will catch you a few sales, but for long term success you need to do more than that. You have to organize your workflow. You have to create a product line, because I'll tell you right now, you won't make a living on 8x10's unless you're selling memory mates. 8x10's etc get old real fast. I have a ton of return customers because we do offer a bunch of different things.
Our second year sales were up 68% over our first year. First quarter sales this year are up 300% (this is typically a dead time for us, so the growth is welcome). You can make money and be successful. It takes time. That said, like others have said, learn your craft first, then look at the industry again and see if it makes sense for you. the worst thing you can do for yourself is start too soon, and create abad reputation for yourself. Good luck!



Mar 15, 2005 at 03:40 PM
wjlapier
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p.2 #10 · youth sports business


Fibo,
Don't get discouraged. Maybe think of investing in some nicer equipment. The other stuff you shoot can only benefit.

My experience is an odd one. First I'll say that I'm not a professional like the rest of these folks. I shot a football game this last fall. I shot the game because I wanted to experiment with sports photography--mostly as a fan of sports and a love for photography. I showed my pics to a friend--she told someone and the word travelled fast that there were some great pics ( not my words! ) of their kids. I then shot most of the home varsity BB games and a few away ones. The parents kept buying the pics. I even talked to one of the photographers for the local paper and he thought it was great that they had someone shooting all their games. We actually shot together a couple of times, once at district and once at state. I'm the only one shooting for this school, well beside the local paper occasionally. There is a SportsShooter.com member in my town. Last I heard he was shooting for parents at the other HS in our town.

So, how did I get all those sales? I carried around a three-ring binder with 8x10s of shots I thought were good ( i must say that I read alot of what is considered good and I have to constantly revise that as I learn more about what is considered good ). I think that the people seeing the pics in their hands helps with the sales ( I have these two mothers who want to buy any pic their kid is in! ). They pay and walk away with pics. Well, this has gone in a direction I didn't plan. Senior portraits, family portraits, and weddings--which I turned down. So, in a little over half a year I've gone from shooting a football game for fun to being asked to shoot everyone's son and daughter, their families and their weddings. Pretty overwhelming to me considering I still think I have a LOT to learn.

So, basically, invest in better equipment if you want to shoot sports. Make it easier for the parents to buy your pics--not necessarily the way I do but easier. And only provide your best--it's your reputation your selling.

Bill



Mar 15, 2005 at 04:54 PM
rburbank
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p.2 #11 · youth sports business


my 2 cents worth....

i've sold lots of photos...but never a sports shot....I have however given away quite a few small sample prints of my sports shots...always with a business card.....

this year i am following a local high school girls softball team and shooting as many of their games as i can.....i have put up an online gallery and given the website address and password to a number of parents and players....i've made the offer to parents or players....1 free 8 by 10 print of their choice...no strings attached except that my logo is going to be printed in one corner of the photo....If I print one for every player on the varsity and junior varsity teams - that will be about 35 8" x 10" prints total.....I think its going to pay back in the long run....

also, if parents don't buy at the games....my own experience is that they never will.....



Mar 15, 2005 at 05:03 PM
Carl Auer
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p.2 #12 · youth sports business


Youth Sports is a VERY hard business to break into. Honestly, many things can kill it for you. Here are some thoughts, ideas, and general observations geared really to all of you who are interested in doing this...not just the original poster or those few who have asked some questions...and I do apologize for the size of this, but I tride to cover EVERYTHING I could think of.........

Practice. Most of the best photographers did not just pick up a camera and start making awesome images. Take a photo class. Know your gear and the limitations of your camera. Read books. Get out to the local gym or ball field and parctice shooting. Study others work, from SportsShooter to Fred Miranda. SI, to the Sporting News. Look at the photos and gain an understanding of what makes them good and why they work. Do not copy them, but incorperate their style into your personal take on photo. The more you shoot, the better you get. Do not just start shooting and try to sell. That is the wrong way to go about anything like this. Work on your weaknesses. If you take great T&I shots, focus on that. If you want to expand into action, do not just add it. Practice. Make sure you are bringing a good product to the market.

Quality. Many event photographers, and some are here so I apologize if I step on how you do business, go for quantity over quality, and I feel this is a poor technique. I met a photographer who will not adjust levels, WB, color, sharpen, or anything on his photos when they are ordered or when he posts them. He does no field editing (too busy talking to the girls 1/2 his age) and will not delete any shot he has (out of focus ref butt's flood his photo website) because, quote "I shoot 500-1000 photos a day, I do not have time to go through them." He got real pissed when I said that I go for quality over quantity. And he turned around and rattled off a series of frames with a 24-70 lens....of a time out....he did not even pay attention to see if there was action within his lens reach, just shot. AND POSTED THEM!!! Take your time. Sure you can shoot off a burst, but why post 5 shots of a kid taking a jumper when only one of them might be bought. Choose the best of the series, and get rid of the rest. Take dead times between games, timeouts, halftime to field edit. Even on the LCD OOF, poorly framed, obvious miss shots can be deleted, making the time you spend sitting at the computer much shorter. When it comes down to people sitting at your website and each shot they say. wow, nice, cool....instead of, wow, look at that, another ref's butt.....sales will go up.

Know the sport and the rules for both players, and photographers. If you shoot hoops, sitting down on the baseline might seem like a given, but there are guys that will stand, and walk out on the court even. I have seen one guy (yes, the same guy) almost get clobered by a mono pod from a newspaper photog for not just walking out on the court, but standing in front of him while the action was right there. Stay out of play. Protect yourself, your gear, but most importantly, the players. If you put them in harms way, you will not last long. Knowing the sport will also help you know where to position yourself, and what shots just work.

Have approval to be there. Even if you are just shooting to learn, and not going to do anything sales wise yet, talk to the league. Let them know that you are trying to break into the business, or trying to add this sport to your business. Offer them a couple shots that you might get for promotional use, and maybe that will be an in for you. Also, it is better to have permission, because it will usually grant you access that you would not otherwise have. And if you do not have the permission, and you try setting up on the field, then, you may end up with a short career.

Act professional. People will want to talk to you. Do not let them distract you or irritate you. Yes they may make you miss a shot, but they are also potential clients, so do not hack them off. It is the old, you tick one customer off, they tell their friends, yaddayadda.... And respect the other photographers at the event. While you may be shooting for the league, there is bound to be other photographers show up. Small towns may gave a newspaper photog there. Do not run over and say; "You can not be here!! I am going to have you thrown out." Talk to them. Say; "Excuse me, are you media? Oh, who are you shooting for? Well, I hate to do this, but I am contracted by this league to shoot the action photos for the season. I can not stop you from shooting from the stands, but you will have to leave the field" If you act professional and not start throwing your weight around, you will earn respect from parents, coaches, the league and your fellow photographers.

Deliver quality product. I recently got a non-sports related gig because the photographer used the previous year has yet to provide customers with any photos. Been almost 6 months! Get your photos to the website and ready to view by the customers as soon as you can. Choose a service that works for you. If they have their own upload software, learn about it, understand it. If you make the prints yourself, use high quality paper and inks. Choose a lab that is good, fast, and reliable. I like to have single games up within 24 hours, day long events, within 48 hours. Turn around from print order to customer receiving it is 5 working days.

Now that I have said alllllll of this, I will give you the real key to making money in the youth sports business.

On site sales. You get a second person to edit and print photos, and have proof sheets, or computers with the proofs on them, available as the parents leave, or go for a soda, your sales will go up. You can actually start by taking the best shots from the previous week/game, and printing them and setting up a table with someone manning it for you, and letting people buy and place orders that way. But most people who do onsite and web based sales usually will all agree that onsite sales blow away web sales.

Ok...I am done.



Mar 15, 2005 at 05:55 PM
fibo
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p.2 #13 · youth sports business


well thanx again.....it is very easy to get discouraged in any business venture. The key is to identify problems and affect a solution. I think you guys have given me considerable insight into that . One thing I see for sports shooting, is the equipment has to improve in order for the pictures to improve...one of my main problems is OOF images of moving objects....scanning the posts above, I see mostly 20D, 1D's and a lot of L glass.
. I am still training my eye to be able to anticipate good action shots as well, and that will just take time.
I really am serious about the quality of online sports shooters here...just do a google for Youth Sports Dallas/Fort worth, and you'll see what I mean. An outfit called Memories here is one of the top dogs, and the stuff they throw out there is not much better than what I have shown here.

So, I've read everything from (paraphrasing here) "you don't have a prayer kid", to "it can be done, and I'm doing it". The final grade would seem to be up to me.....
I'll post another couple images later...just cause I am a glutton for punishment!
Appreciate all the advice, feel like I've been to school on this subject.
And taken out back behind the school by some of you......but all honest opinions and I appreciate that.



Mar 15, 2005 at 06:04 PM
Arn_
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p.2 #14 · youth sports business


Thanks Carl!



Mar 15, 2005 at 06:09 PM
P Alesse
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p.2 #15 · youth sports business


Fibo... one of the other posters on the forum Listantica is also relatively new. She has come long strides in a short period of time simply by posting, receiving comments, and then going back out and working on those things. Her work gets progressively better. You have to develop somewhat of a thick skin here. From what I read, dpreview is a lot harsher. What one person says is totally an opinion and not rule. Some opinions will simply hold more water than others due to their experience.

So, don't go anywhere. Just keep practicing and posting.



Mar 15, 2005 at 06:43 PM
rickberk
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p.2 #16 · youth sports business


Fibo-
One last thing I will add to Carl's excellent advice, and disagree with him on. Online sales can be successful. Now, I have no idea what we do differently from anyone else here, but online sales made up almost half of all sales last year for us (it was in the 6 figure range). Our sales can be broken down to three areas- T&I, Onsite Action, and Online Sales. T&I and online sales were probably each around 40% of total gross sales, while onsite action was around 20%. I expect that to change this year somewhat, with onsite taking a greater role. That's not because we feel online sales are a losing proposition, but more because for a particular venue that we are contracted with, onsite works extremely well, and we'll be doing more there this year. In all honesty, you'll have to try things out and see what works for you.



Mar 15, 2005 at 06:56 PM
Carl Auer
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p.2 #17 · youth sports business


rick...let me add something...all I do is online sales....on site would not currently work for me...but those who I have talked to that do onsite sales say, for the most part, it was the best choice they made...


Mar 15, 2005 at 07:07 PM
P Alesse
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p.2 #18 · youth sports business


Adding on to what Rick has said from someone in his area. LISPN carries a great reputation and a good advertising campaign in a growing market here on Long Island. Word of mouth on the work being done is talked up quite a bit from members of the community around here. As a school teacher and coach in the area, many parents that I talk to know of the services and quality that LISPN has offered... this is one of the reasons why I'm vying for a spot on the LISPN team.

So, it really comes down to advice of what Carl and the others have said... put out a good product and build a base. Word will spread fast.



Mar 15, 2005 at 07:21 PM
rickberk
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p.2 #19 · youth sports business


Carl-
Onsite would not work in many situations we find ourselves in. The one situation we do have that we do it, it does work well. But we did a tournament two years ago, and sold onsite. Numbers were good, but no better than our online numbers. Last year, we did the same tournament only online. The numbers were about even. Now maybe we screwed up the onsite part, but either way was profitable. Logistically, it's just easier to do them online however.
Paul-
Thanks for the compliments. It amazes me when people hear our name and comment on the work when they meet me for the first time. I guess we're doing something right! A for your spot on the team, we'll see you on the 2nd and go from there!



Mar 15, 2005 at 08:14 PM
CMORRISON
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p.2 #20 · youth sports business


I have went full time into youth sports. Besides the action photos we do a great deal of business in poster prints. I fell if you offer something that everyone else does not offer you have a better chance at success.
1. http://www.tntphotos.com/misc/sb11.jpg



Mar 15, 2005 at 09:25 PM
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