p.7 #1 · Canon video thread for hybrid shooters...
Well if I was ever going to take a RAW video, capturing the sky of the LA Fires was going to be it. Here's something for you all to ponder regarding file size. I captured a 30 second video of the sky (red sun behind smoke clouds) at 8K RAW...11.75GB. So that would be roughly 23GB per minute of footage (or about 43 minutes of footage for a 1TB drive).
I made a 12 second clip of it (the camera shifted focus and so the last 18 seconds had out of focus trees in the foreground) and did an experiment. I transcoded the 12 second 8K RAW footage using Premiere Pro default settings to both 4K HEVC and 4K AVC. The encoding time for both was within a second (2m40s for AVC, 2m41s for HEVC). So at least for my M4 Max Macbook Pro it didn't take significantly longer for it to apply the more complex compression algorithm of HEVC to the RAW footage, so there is no time saved for me to transcode RAW to AVC vs. HEVC. Also this serves as an object lesson that transcoding to either file format takes a lot longer when your input file is a huge RAW file vs. working on a native AVC or HEVC recording from our cameras.
The resulting file sizes?
4K HEVC: 58.4MB
4K AVC: 387.7MP
8K RAW: 4.7GB (since I trimmed it down to 12s from the original 30s clip, I calculated 11.75GB x 0.4)
On my 4K monitor I queued up both HEVC and AVC using Quicktime and overlayed one on top of the other and went frame by frame (using right arrow key) and went back and forth. I did this for dozens of frames sync'd up to each other and to my eye I could not discern a difference. While a lot of the scene is static, which would benefit HEVC's compression scheme, there are lots of tiny details of leaves moving due to the high winds.
In case you're curious, here are the two videos:
You likely won't be able to discern a difference either because of the YouTube compression, but looking at the master output files on a 4K monitor, going frame by frame, I could not detect one iota of difference, which is impressive considering the HEVC file is 6.6X smaller than the AVC file.
Shot it in RAW with white balance set to Cloudy (which matched in the EVF and rear display what my eye saw in the sky), and then applied default Canon LUT to it which again matched what I saw in the sky.
p.7 #2 · Canon video thread for hybrid shooters...
Gochugogi wrote:
Thanks Rudy. That was too easy and obvious...
I'm mainly a landscape shooter but shoot music related videos for my YouTube channel. Here's a recent one about melody (for my music lit courses). I used R6 MK II, R7 and R cameras for the talking head, music performance clips and background stills (found a use for my landscape images). A few softboxes were involved. Talking head and voiceovers were recorded with a Rode PodMic and Rode Streamer X interface. Guitar and ukulele were recorded with a Neumann KM 184 pair, Tascam 208i interface and Logic Pro. Music graphics were produced in Finale. Everything was assembled and edited in Final Cut Pro. ...Show more →
Hi Gochugogi,
Very nice production with excellent lighting and audio recording. It's nice to see different genres of videos starting to be posted here. As a life-long musician of sorts and a teacher I appreciate your approach and hard work. Thanks for posting.
p.7 #3 · Canon video thread for hybrid shooters...
Carlo_M wrote:
Well if I was ever going to take a RAW video, capturing the sky of the LA Fires was going to be it. Here's something for you all to ponder regarding file size. I captured a 30 second video of the sky (red sun behind smoke clouds) at 8K RAW...11.75GB. So that would be roughly 23GB per minute of footage (or about 43 minutes of footage for a 1TB drive).
...
You likely won't be able to discern a difference either because of the YouTube compression, but looking at the master output files on a 4K monitor, going frame by frame, I could not detect one iota of difference, which is impressive considering the HEVC file is 6.6X smaller than the AVC file.
Shot it in RAW with white balance set to Cloudy (which matched in the EVF and rear display what my eye saw in the sky), and then applied default Canon LUT to it which again matched what I saw in the sky....Show more →
Thanks for doing this Carlo and posting the results. Your'e right, I couldn't see any appreciable difference.
So what is the take away here? Is it that we shouldn't bother mucking about with RAW shooting, but just go straight to HEVC or AVC recording?
p.7 #4 · Canon video thread for hybrid shooters...
Hi Rudy,
I'll just share my internal decision tree, keeping in mind that these are just my values based on what I've discovered on my own anecdotal testing, and leave it to others to decide whether to follow it, or create their own based on their personal realities (e.g. someone with a ton of disposable income may just choose to always film in 8K RAW because they can afford to have hundreds of terabytes of storage).
When would I shoot in RAW? Important once in a lifetime, life-changing event, etc. Baby's first steps. Marriage proposal. Surprising a family member returning from long active duty overseas with a welcome home party. Loved one coming back home after an extended stay in the hospital. First trip to see an amazing landmark/artwork/culturally significant event.
How would I decide between shooting 4K vs. 8K RAW? Combination of factors, including the length of the thing I'm filming (the longer it goes, I'll probably do 4K) and the degree of personal importance to me.
For all other things, I'm basically shooting HEVC, editing/assembling in HEVC, final output in HEVC. Currently my schema of choice is HEVC 4K-U Fine (U because it matches current 4K TV resolution of 3840x2160, Fine because it's oversampled vs. subsampled from the 8K image). But also its to keep file sizes very reasonable, and because I think between 4K and 8K we start hitting diminishing returns. Personally I think the biggest jump was when we went from DVD (480p) to HD (1080p). The jump from HD to 4K was significant too, but not as noticeable as 480 to 1080. 4K vs 8K in anything smaller than a huge (e.g. 110" or larger) screen at close viewing distances will likely be lost on the average viewer. But maybe in a few years I'll regret not filming more in 8K...
p.7 #5 · Canon video thread for hybrid shooters...
Carlo_M wrote:
Hi Rudy,
I'll just share my internal decision tree, keeping in mind that these are just my values based on what I've discovered on my own anecdotal testing, and leave it to others to decide whether to follow it, or create their own based on their personal realities (e.g. someone with a ton of disposable income may just choose to always film in 8K RAW because they can afford to have hundreds of terabytes of storage).
When would I shoot in RAW? Important once in a lifetime, life-changing event, etc. Baby's first steps. Marriage proposal. Surprising a family member returning from long active duty overseas with a welcome home party. Loved one coming back home after an extended stay in the hospital. First trip to see an amazing landmark/artwork/culturally significant event.
How would I decide between shooting 4K vs. 8K RAW? Combination of factors, including the length of the thing I'm filming (the longer it goes, I'll probably do 4K) and the degree of personal importance to me.
For all other things, I'm basically shooting HEVC, editing/assembling in HEVC, final output in HEVC. Currently my schema of choice is HEVC 4K-U Fine (U because it matches current 4K TV resolution of 3840x2160, Fine because it's oversampled vs. subsampled from the 8K image). But also its to keep file sizes very reasonable, and because I think between 4K and 8K we start hitting diminishing returns. Personally I think the biggest jump was when we went from DVD (480p) to HD (1080p). The jump from HD to 4K was significant too, but not as noticeable as 480 to 1080. 4K vs 8K in anything smaller than a huge (e.g. 110" or larger) screen at close viewing distances will likely be lost on the average viewer. But maybe in a few years I'll regret not filming more in 8K......Show more →
Although I have zero experience with RAW video files to me what you're saying makes perfect sense.
Rudy
p.7 #6 · Canon video thread for hybrid shooters...
I will say there's possibly a "middle ground" which, if I have time, I may explore in the future. Others who have time and interest are also welcome to try and post results.
For things that are "important enough to warrant trying to get as good as possible resolution but not enough to warrant keeping huge RAW video files"...
I think (emphasize on think) that there may be a sharpness advantage in shooting RAW and then using quality software like Premiere Pro (and I assume Davinci Resolve and Final Cut Pro, but I haven't used either) to convert to HEVC versus shooting HEVC straight from the camera.
To figure this out we'd need a controlled subject like a test chart for sharpness in controlled lighting, and then shoot a clip in RAW (both 8K and 4K) and transcode to HEVC, and then shoot a clip in HEVC and then compare the final HEVCs to see if the ones transcoded from RAW is slightly sharper than the native "shot using HEVC" clip. From what I recall seeing on some YouTubers' reviews, that should be the case, but I've not tested it out.
So that way you get the combo of "sharper footage than something shot in HEVC" but with the benefits of the smaller HEVC file size.
The opportunity cost is your time to do the transcoding from RAW to HEVC.
p.7 #7 · Canon video thread for hybrid shooters...
Rudy Pohl wrote:
Hi Gochugogi,
Very nice production with excellent lighting and audio recording. It's nice to see different genres of videos starting to be posted here. As a life-long musician of sorts and a teacher I appreciate your approach and hard work. Thanks for posting.
Cheers,
Rudy
I watched a couple of your videos and enjoyed them a lot. Well done! My videos aren't as artistically motivated but I enjoyed learning to create them and use new tools and toys. I found dealing with audio the most challenging aspect of the process.
p.7 #10 · Canon video thread for hybrid shooters...
Gordon Liang just released his video focused review on the R5ii (and compared it with a Sony model). Worth watching. His findings largely agree with what we've been discussing, but it's good to see confirmation and test chart shots to back it all up.
Updated the rig with the Shinobi II monitor. I really like this thing. Has a couple of small setup quirks I need to figure out but overall, great. Really love that I can control the R5II and even tap to focus through the monitor.
Feels a lot more accurate than the Viltrox monitor I was using before. Not to mention, a lot less bulky. This rig is heavy enough as it is.
Updated the rig with the Shinobi II monitor. I really like this thing. Has a couple of small setup quirks I need to figure out but overall, great. Really love that I can control the R5II and even tap to focus through the monitor.
Feels a lot more accurate than the Viltrox monitor I was using before. Not to mention, a lot less bulky. This rig is heavy enough as it is.
Hi n8rv,
That's one great looking rig. Just how much does it weigh if you don't mind me asking.
p.7 #13 · Canon video thread for hybrid shooters...
Thanks Rudy. Haven’t weighed it myself, but based on the listed weight of all individual parts, with this 24-70 F2.8 L lens, it’s roughly 11lb. With the 70-200 F2.8 L it’s about 1lb heavier
In the grand scheme of things it’s not too bad. Plus the additional handles make it much easier to hold and carry. Doesn’t hurt to shave off some weight wherever possible.
I am considering getting some of the newer VCM RF lenses. Not just for the weight but also for some of their optical improvements and also practical benefits when shooting video.
p.7 #14 · Canon video thread for hybrid shooters...
n8rv wrote:
Thanks Rudy. Haven’t weighed it myself, but based on the listed weight of all individual parts, with this 24-70 F2.8 L lens, it’s roughly 11lb. With the 70-200 F2.8 L it’s about 1lb heavier
In the grand scheme of things it’s not too bad. Plus the additional handles make it much easier to hold and carry. Doesn’t hurt to shave off some weight wherever possible.
I am considering getting some of the newer VCM RF lenses. Not just for the weight but also for some of their optical improvements and also practical benefits when shooting video.
Eleven pounds if you're using two hands is not too bad. Yes, those VCM lenses sound great. I sometimes do rack focusing in my videos and boy is the focus breathing apparent.
p.7 #15 · Canon video thread for hybrid shooters...
action99 wrote:
I shoot mostly in RAW, edit in Resolve and try to have good camera movements, I rarely use a tripod
R5C, 70-200 2.8, 8K RAW 25 and 50 fps on a RS3Pro gimbal
What a great group of videos! Do you do this as a full-time job, semi-pro or a very advanced amateur? Very professional looking and thanks for sharing with us. Fantastic variety!
Dave
p.7 #16 · Canon video thread for hybrid shooters...
For those curious about how the 35 1.4 VCM performs re: focus breathing, I put up a quick video (yeah I'm not ashamed of my other hobbies lol). I think it's logical to expect the 24 and 50 VCMs to perform similarly.
Shot with R5ii + 35 1.4 VCM + Nisi 1-5 stop VND @ 4K-U Fine 30fps wide open at f/1.4 ISO 800
p.7 #17 · Canon video thread for hybrid shooters...
Carlo_M wrote:
For those curious about how the 35 1.4 VCM performs re: focus breathing, I put up a quick video (yeah I'm not ashamed of my other hobbies lol). I think it's logical to expect the 24 and 50 VCMs to perform similarly.
Shot with R5ii + 35 1.4 VCM + Nisi 1-5 stop VND @ 4K-U Fine 30fps wide open at f/1.4 ISO 800
Looks great Carlo!
Did you use touch screen to change focus during video?
Nice toys!!
Dave
p.7 #18 · Canon video thread for hybrid shooters...
Yes I just had the camera on a smallrig tripod using just what's native on the body and lens (I didn't put it in the cage with handles and the Atomos Shinobi II which I would do if I were shooting an event). So just tapped with my finger on the LCD on the back at the three different focus points I wanted to cycle between.
Additional info for settings I may have changed from camera default:
Movie Servo AF Enabled
AF Area was set to Exoand AF area (the square in the middle with smaller squares above, below and to the right and left)
Subject to detect: Auto
Movie Servo AF speed: -1
p.7 #19 · Canon video thread for hybrid shooters...
Carlo_M wrote:
Yes I just had the camera on a smallrig tripod using just what's native on the body and lens (I didn't put it in the cage with handles and the Atomos Shinobi II which I would do if I were shooting an event). So just tapped with my finger on the LCD on the back at the three different focus points I wanted to cycle between.
Additional info for settings I may have changed from camera default:
Movie Servo AF Enabled
AF Area was set to Exoand AF area (the square in the middle with smaller squares above, below and to the right and left)
Subject to detect: Auto
Movie Servo AF speed: -1 ...Show more →
Without me accessing my camera right now, how many more slower speed settings are there in the Movie Servo AF Speed menu? Based on the look of it, I think I would prefer something slower, maybe a - 3 or so. But I don't have my camera in front of me to look right now.
p.7 #20 · Canon video thread for hybrid shooters...
I don't know the total number (I'm getting food and on mobile) but there are a *lot* more settings in the negative than positive (I think the fastest is +2 but there may be -7 or -8 or more).
I remember testing out the slowest setting once and it took forever to shift focus lol. Marty Scorsese would have loved it.
