p.6 #1 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!
Nushi wrote:
I have nothing against the idea of software corrections but there are some downsides.
1. You camera is limited to software that supports it. You rely on both manufacturer and software to keep it working indefinitely.
2. New OEM lenses appear better than old or third party because the former is reviewed with software corrections. Despite all lenses benefiting.
3. It has a shrinkflation like tendency. The cost savings are probably going straight to profit rather than consumers. It makes the whole value assessment difficult.
4. Your camera manufacturer is in a way in control of your lens. The purchase gets subscription like qualities.
1. Almost all modern cameras have electronics in them and you’re completely dependent upon the manufacture. They stop supporting the camera, at some point it’s going to be difficult to repair. This is one reason why I keep my pair of M3s.
4. All firmware updates have an end date, but are companies charging for the firmware updates?
p.6 #2 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!
bwcolor wrote:
1. Almost all modern cameras have electronics in them and you’re completely dependent upon the manufacture. They stop supporting the camera, at some point it’s going to be difficult to repair. This is one reason why I keep my pair of M3s.
4. All firmware updates have an end date, but are companies charging for the firmware updates?
Those comparisons aren't valid. Software is a more arbitrary block that when open theoretically never goes bad as long as *someone* is interested in keeping it working. A good comparison would be Canon raw files that can't be read without reverse engineering. Most other raw formats are implemented very quickly so cameras are supported almost right away without contract or cooperation from the manufacturer. With canon you can't be sure your camera is supported.
Software corrections are rarely done transparently and it's more work to figure them out when complex. I don't know if the Q3 stores and communicates it's corrections in the open. If they are open the corrections are a of course sanon issue.
Being locked in to say Adobe isn't great when you prefer other software.
p.6 #3 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!
1bwana1 wrote:
My guess is that neither one of you has spent time shooting the D-Lux 8. I have, and Huss is correct. The D-Lux 8 is a full fledged Leica camera now. It offers the same owner, and shooting experience that all the current Leica cameras do. Same materials, same buttons, same communication protocols, same integration with FOTOS, same workflow, same menus, same DNG files (now 12 bit) . Everything. Hold one in your hand. Shoot one. You will see that Huss is correct. The D-Lux 8 has been upgraded from the original shared Panasonic version. Yes, this includes the sensor. The images the D-Lux 8 produces are excellent for most use cases. For sure sharing digitally, and even printing to a larger size than most of us do most often. I have posted many D-Lux images here on FM. You would likely find it impossible to recognize any difference from the M11 images I have posted.
You will never get this kind of shooting experience, nor image quality using any current smart phone.
The zoom lens is very good for a zoom. I believe that Leica has done similar computational optimizations with the lens as the have with the Q. They even crop the resolution and FL bit doing this like the Q(x). The lens was designed for use on this one sensor by Leica, with all the advantages that that implies. Yes, it is manufactured by Panasonic. Did you know that Panasonic's Yamagata lens manufacturing facility is possibly the most advanced small aspherical lens manufacturing facilities in the World? They are capable of making ASPH lenses with multiple times less tolerances than other facilities. They make these type of lenses for many of the big "prestige" companies.
Although it has Panasonic roots in its lineage, Panasonic has never made a version like the current D-Lux 8. No other manufacturer has either.
Huss fully understands this, and is 100% correct in his statement. I shoot it regularly alongside my M11, and current collection of latest generation of Leica M lenses. The D-Lux 8 is much closer in experience to the Q family of cameras than it is to the M. I would buy the new Q3 43 if I didn't already own the D-Lux 8. But for my use case, and in most circumstances (there are exceptions) it is as good as a Q(x) . Form Factor is often preferable to the Q(x) or M cameras.
No I am not trolling, and not being sarcastic. Neither is Huss. Try one before judging so harshly.
You are mistaken about something you wrote about the improved quality of the D-Lux 8. The D-Lux 8 has the same sensor and lens as the D-Lux 7 and the Panasonic LX100II. And the D7 and Panasonic are essentially the same camera, except that the D7 has a Red Dot and costs twice as much.
p.6 #4 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!
Nushi wrote:
Those comparisons aren't valid. Software is a more arbitrary block that when open theoretically never goes bad as long as *someone* is interested in keeping it working. A good comparison would be Canon raw files that can't be read without reverse engineering. Most other raw formats are implemented very quickly so cameras are supported almost right away without contract or cooperation from the manufacturer. With canon you can't be sure your camera is supported.
Software corrections are rarely done transparently and it's more work to figure them out when complex. I don't know if the Q3 stores and communicates it's corrections in the open. If they are open the corrections are a of course sanon issue.
Being locked in to say Adobe isn't great when you prefer other software. ...Show more →
All the correction instructions the Q images need are written to the DNGs, which can be interpreted by software that looks for them.
p.6 #5 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!
TENOG wrote:
You are mistaken about something you wrote about the improved quality of the D-Lux 8. The D-Lux 8 has the same sensor and lens as the D-Lux 7 and the Panasonic LX100II. And the D7 and Panasonic are essentially the same camera, except that the D7 has a Red Dot and costs twice as much.
You need to read more carefully. My statement was that the D-Lux 8 has a different sensor than the original version shared with Panasonic, not the D-Lux 7. It is a completely different sensor than the original. You might want to research that.
At the same time it is also true that the D-Lux 8 has been given a higher Dynamic Range Score than the D-Lux 7, now has unlimited video recording, produces 12 bit RAW DNG files, and other things. Some of these may be the resalt of sensor optimizations so that the two sensors are not perfectly identical. It is fuzzy at this point which is why I made the claim referencing only the original sensor.
So my post is absolutely correct, it is yours that need corrcting.
p.6 #7 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!
1bwana1 wrote:
You need to read more carefully. My statement was that the D-Lux 8 has a different sensor than the original version shared with Panasonic, not the D-Lux 7. It is a completely different sensor than the original. You might want to research that.
At the same time it is also true that the D-Lux 8 has been given a higher Dynamic Range Score than the D-Lux 7, now has unlimited video recording, produces 12 bit RAW DNG files, and other things. Some of these may be the resalt of sensor optimizations so that the two sensors are not perfectly identical. It is fuzzy at this point which is why I made the claim referencing only the original sensor.
So my post is absolutely correct, it is yours that need corrcting....Show more →
I stand corrected, sir. I assumed you were referring to the LX100II, not the LX100 which came out in 2014 and is now so outdated that it is not a subject of conversation or comparison to the newer models. Nowhere is it ever mentioned in reviews today, so why would you even consider it in comparison to the newest model? Nevertheless, you did and you are right, it is vastly inferior. But also note that my comments were only about the sensor and lens in the two latest models. They are the same. You might want to research that yourself, as you said. As for the other improvements you mentioned I agree with you. But the guts are the same. Leica has been criticized everywhere for not having upgraded the sensor or making the camera weather resistant. Upgraded view finder, restyled body, DNG RAW, and upgraded viewfinder are the biggest changes, but I doubt any of them produce any better final IQ than the D7 or LX100II.
p.6 #8 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!
TENOG wrote:
You are mistaken about something you wrote about the improved quality of the D-Lux 8. The D-Lux 8 has the same sensor and lens as the D-Lux 7 and the Panasonic LX100II. And the D7 and Panasonic are essentially the same camera, except that the D7 has a Red Dot and costs twice as much.
True. The Leica version had double the warranty of the Panasonic and originally came supplied with a full Lightroom licence (when LR was perpeetual). The menu font was different but other than that.
The upgrades to the D8 appear small at first but are actually quite significant. Kind of like what Sony did between the A7R4 and A7R5. Keep the sensor, upgrade the rest.
It's still a small sensor compact but a good one. And since there are fewer and fewer these days the D8 is a good thing. I made some pretty nice 12x18" prints from the D7 but didn't like the EVF at all. So the D8 would be a rather large improvement for me.
p.6 #9 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!
rollei35_warton wrote:
Sometimes I have to doubt your motive as why you are so vehemently defending the D-Lux8.
I guess self-esteem doesn’t allow you to admit buyers remorse.
Anyway I have quit arguing with you about this camera a couple of months, and now someone else picked up the torch 🤪
Yeah D-Lux8 is the best ever camera that has existed on this planet in human beings history.
There you go, you win 😛
Not the point, I was only posting to correct someone who misstated what I had said.
I also don't think that the D-Lux 8 is the best camera ever. It makes plenty of compromises. I just think that it is often misunderstood and people don't realize how much has actually changed in the newest version to bring it in line with the rest of Leicas line. It is just an inexpensive, fun, convenience, camera after all.
Sorry you feel like you lost something, I try to discuss honestly and politely with a positive tilt. Your "best ever" pouting rant is extremely juvenile. That is a very bad look in my opinion. In actuality, neither of us has anything to win or lose in this discussion. In gthe end I will still enjoy my D-Lux 8 and you will continue to dislike it. No big deal really.
p.6 #10 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!
TENOG wrote:
I stand corrected, sir. I assumed you were referring to the LX100II, not the LX100 which came out in 2014 and is now so outdated that it is not a subject of conversation or comparison to the newer models. Nowhere is it ever mentioned in reviews today, so why would you even consider it in comparison to the newest model? Nevertheless, you did and you are right, it is vastly inferior. But also note that my comments were only about the sensor and lens in the two latest models. They are the same. You might want to research that yourself, as you said. As for the other improvements you mentioned I agree with you. But the guts are the same. Leica has been criticized everywhere for not having upgraded the sensor or making the camera weather resistant. Upgraded view finder, restyled body, DNG RAW, and upgraded viewfinder are the biggest changes, but I doubt any of them produce any better final IQ than the D7 or LX100II....Show more →
Thanks for being such a gentleman about the simple misunderstanding. I always appreciate that. Not everyone has that integrity on these forum discussions. I am thinking we agree on more things than we disagree on.
For sure I would prefer weather sealing. In fact, I don't understand not weather sealing an every day camera with a fixed lens. Makes no sense to me.
I have seen conflicting discussions regarding the latest two sensors as I have said. Leica originally listed the D-Lux 7 sensor as a MOS sensor it it own literature. Other reviewers have done the same. Still others listed it also as a CMOS sensor like the D0-Lux 8. The difference in construction of MOS to CMOS sensors result increased dynamic range, and more energy efficient/cooler running sensors. Both of these attributes have changed in the D-Lux 8 as evidenced by the DXO DR ratings, and the now unlimited video recording time. I remain unconvinced which is why I called it "fuzzy" but worth mentioning.
I also have read all the negative posts. But the fact is that the current upgrade is compelling enough that the D-Lux 8 has been backordered since release, and there are still long waiting lists in most resellers. Even the new Q3 43 is not in such short supply. Of course we can't know the supply/demand ratios of the two models to make solid conclusions from just that.
My personal experience with the camera has been good, and I own and have experience with the best Leica equipment available. I am not disappointed with image quality from the D-Lux 8. It is all personal preference.
p.6 #11 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!
1bwana1 wrote:
Not the point, I was only posting to correct someone who misstated what I had said.
I also don't think that the D-Lux 8 is the best camera ever. It makes plenty of compromises. I just think that it is often misunderstood and people don't realize how much has actually changed in the newest version to bring it in line with the rest of Leicas line. It is just an inexpensive, fun, convenience, camera after all.
Sorry you feel like you lost something.
It seems like such a small adjustment but aligning the menu layout so it mirrors other M cameras is a huge benefit for users with M, Q or SL cameras. Learning menu layout is a slog and the worst is dealing with multiple layouts. It was a smart move on Leica's part.
p.6 #12 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!
madNbad wrote:
It seems like such a small adjustment but aligning the menu layout so it mirrors other M cameras is a huge benefit for users with M, Q or SL cameras. Learning menu layout is a slog and the worst is dealing with multiple layouts. It was a smart move on Leica's part.
Don't discount the parts that new materials, size, buttons, dials, file types, and full FOTOS integration, that follow Leica esthetics and workflows play in that as well.
Many who would never buy the D-Lux 7 are really enjoying the Leica experience with the D-Lux 8. Myself included.
p.6 #13 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!
flash wrote:
It's still a small sensor compact but a good one. And since there are fewer and fewer these days the D8 is a good thing. I made some pretty nice 12x18" prints from the D7 but didn't like the EVF at all. So the D8 would be a rather large improvement for me.
Gordon
For those that are focused on the fact that Leica didn't change the lens. Leica also hasn't changed the lens on the Q (x) 28mm camera series since launch. It's other offerings are all interchangeable lens cameras so fall into an entirely different category. No one is claiming that the D-Lux 8 lens is as good as the Q3 28mm/43mm, or the SL/M line of lenses. It is not. People choosing to enjoy the D-Lux 8 are fully aware of this. Why does that bother some people so much?
As for the sensor. Leica currently really only offers three base sensors. The M/Q series cameras with all variants are really based on the one 60 mpx full frame sensor with modifications. The Sl2 is based on a 47mpx full frame sensor. The only non full frame sensor in Leicas current offerings is the D-Lux 8 M4/3 sensor. It is nice to have at least one none full frame sensor based camera. True it is the lowest IQ sensor of the three. No one is claiming otherwise. I don't know why that is upsetting some people so much.
p.6 #14 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!
1bwana1 wrote:
Don't discount the parts that new materials, size, buttons, dials, file types, and full FOTOS integration, that follow Leica esthetics and workflows play in that as well.
Many who would never buy the D-Lux 7 are really enjoying the Leica experience with the D-Lux 8. Myself included.
I recently bought an LX100II and am very much impressed with it. Aside from the quality of images I am getting I find that it is fun to use, something I didn't experience with the Q2, which I sold even though it has better IQ. After doing my research I concluded that it wasn't worth it to pay twice as much for the D-Lux 8 for what I considered minor upgrades. My research indicates that the lens and sensor are the same and that was what was important to me. I also see that the menu system on the D8 has been changed to match the other Leicas, but I also see that a lot of the really sophisticated features of the D7 and LX100II have been abandoned for the sake of simplicity. I do find the menu system of the D8 to be more simple and logical but it excludes a lot of things that the previous models can do and it loses a lot of Function buttons that really speed up usage. And once you wade through the menus and set the Panasonic up the way you want it, it can be as simple as you want it to be -- even simpler than the D8 if you desire. In fact, in Ai mode it becomes a totally automatic point and shoot camera, though I prefer to control it using the exposure triangle. So in conclusion I would say that the D8 improved a lot of peripheral operations and styling but failed to improve the lens, sensor, and WR. For some, the minor upgrades justify the increased price. And because it's a Leica you have to pay it.
p.6 #15 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!
TENOG wrote:
I recently bought an LX100II and am very much impressed with it. Aside from the quality of images I am getting I find that it is fun to use, something I didn't experience with the Q2, which I sold even though it has better IQ. After doing my research I concluded that it wasn't worth it to pay twice as much for the D-Lux 8 for what I considered minor upgrades. My research indicates that the lens and sensor are the same and that was what was important to me. I also see that the menu system on the D8 has been changed to match the other Leicas, but I also see that a lot of the really sophisticated features of the D7 and LX100II have been abandoned for the sake of simplicity. I do find the menu system of the D8 to be more simple and logical but it excludes a lot of things that the previous models can do and it loses a lot of Function buttons that really speed up usage. And once you wade through the menus and set the Panasonic up the way you want it, it can be as simple as you want it to be -- even simpler than the D8 if you desire. In fact, in Ai mode it becomes a totally automatic point and shoot camera, though I prefer to control it using the exposure triangle. So in conclusion I would say that the D8 improved a lot of peripheral operations and styling but failed to improve the lens, sensor, and WR. For some, the minor upgrades justify the increased price. And because it's a Leica you have to pay it....Show more →
The great thing is that we both get to shoot the camera we prefer. I look forward to seeing some images from you here on FM.
Your post did interest me enough to research what functions are missing from the D-Lux 8 that I may have liked to have. The only one I could find is possibly the step zoom function. I do wish Leica had left that one in. Can you point out another?
I generaly prefer not to push buttons while shooting my Leicas. I am used to the workflow of an M camera. Therefore I usually only use the aperture ring, shutter speed dial, and exposure compensation dial to control ISO. With the D-Lux 8 I just zoom for composition, and use half press for focus and recompose. Simple, direct analog style controls that get me the images I want using a Leica like workflow.
When I want the digital computer like experience I shoot my Sony A1. I have it custom configured extensively to give me the flexible workflow I like for that type of shooting. Amazing for a few types of subjects. But I generally prefer a more analog Leica experience for most photography.
I watched the video linked below to learn about the LX100II. Interestingly it also says the the sensor is a MOS not CMOS like the new D-Lux 8 absolutely has. Again does this mean the sensor has been improved and is not identical? Panasonic has a long history of using MOS sensors so this makes sense. Still fuzzy in my opinion.
p.6 #16 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!
I'm with you... A 50 lux would be far more compelling, providing more differentiation from the standard Q, while attracting many photogs that love 50mm... I would be willing to bet it would be an easier sell than a 43.
mboy wrote:
It's basically a Q3 with a 43 lens slapped on....took the same que from Ricoh grx... Not innovative at all imo. At least for the premium id expect to get similar features like the m11d is content credentials etc...
Also for standard portrait lens you'd expect a Lux would lend itself more for portraiture right What was Leica thinking 🤔
p.6 #17 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!
Desmolicious wrote:
Heck… half the so-called photographers on Youtube making all these Q3 reviews couldn’t create a decent image to save their lives.
I love love love the content that High Brownstone (3 blind men and an elephant) puts on YouTube. I love his takes on equipment and for the most part agree with 99% of what he says. Bonus point for the way he talks and sounds kinda like Jeff Goldblum...
But I hate his photos. I haven't seen a single one on his channel that interested me in the least. Completely uninspired, could've been shot with a rebel G, FE2, Canon SL1, you name it.
I promise I'm getting to my point lol.
If I had the financial means to buy a Q3 and not put myself in a bind, I would have done it some time ago. I would probably love it so much... I love the Leica experience and I love a fast 28. But monetarily, it just doesn't work for me at this time.
Jealous, yes. I'm happy for those of you who have no problem justifying it. I will continue to take half-measures and compromises lol.
p.6 #18 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!
I’ve been impressed with the D-Lux 8. Handling is great—just like a Q only smaller—and image quality is pretty good. I do find the wide end of the zoom isn’t good quality but haven’t done any controlled tests to validate. By 43mm it’s as good as you can expect from a M4/3 camera.
I am looking forward to comparing the Q3 43 with the D-Lux 8. Other than the obvious differences in resolution, dynamic range and noise I’m curious about how color rendition, contrast, bokeh, and monochrome conversion will compare.
p.6 #19 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!
ISO1600 wrote:
I'm with you... A 50 lux would be far more compelling, providing more differentiation from the standard Q, while attracting many photogs that love 50mm... I would be willing to bet it would be an easier sell than a 43.
I am not convinced. Leica says that the number one used focal length on M cameras is 35mm. 50mm is second. Building the new camera with either of those classic focal lengths would tend to lose the other. 43mm splits the baby and can be seen as a small compromise by either. I think Leica made a good business decision with the 43mm.
p.6 #20 · Official Announcement: Leica Q3 43 Digital Camera Released!
ISO1600 wrote:
I love love love the content that High Brownstone (3 blind men and an elephant) puts on YouTube. I love his takes on equipment and for the most part agree with 99% of what he says. Bonus point for the way he talks and sounds kinda like Jeff Goldblum...
But I hate his photos. I haven't seen a single one on his channel that interested me in the least. Completely uninspired, could've been shot with a rebel G, FE2, Canon SL1, you name it.
I promise I'm getting to my point lol.
If I had the financial means to buy a Q3 and not put myself in a bind, I would have done it some time ago. I would probably love it so much... I love the Leica experience and I love a fast 28. But monetarily, it just doesn't work for me at this time.
Jealous, yes. I'm happy for those of you who have no problem justifying it. I will continue to take half-measures and compromises lol. ...Show more →
Hugh Brownstone is a legitimate and authentic person. This esthetic comes across strongly in his YouTube channel. He is worth watching for sure. I had the pleasure of shooting with Hugh and his Wife Claudia. His images refect his disciplined perspective on the World. On the other hand Claudia's images are very non technical and emotional in nature. They are wonderful in this respect. She knows little about the technical aspects of the cameras she uses. I wish Hugh's channel had more of her images included.
What was Leica thinking 🤔