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Archive 2024 · Canon departure thoughts

Hairy Heron
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p.11 #1 · Canon departure thoughts

arbitrage wrote:
Why are people so underwhelmed by the R5II? What else did people expect it to have?

You see this all the time with all sorts of popular devices. It�s Phase One with two types of participants: 1) I-Want-It-Alls-(For-Cheaps) and the 2) Not-In-My-Budgets. Once the products start shipping and users start talking about them we move to Phase Two which consolidates these two demographics into one: the It�s-Backordered-Until-Armageddon-I�m-P.O.s In this latter stage comments turn from �X sucks, horrible upgrade,� to �why are these so hard to get? They had to know there was huge demand.�

Seriously though, I could not care less what camera system people prefer. They all have pros and cons, all excellent in their own way, and everyone has there own priorities. Personally the R52 looks like amazing upgrade and can�t wait to get my paws on it.

Jul 21, 2024 at 07:49 AM

arbitrage
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p.11 #2 · Canon departure thoughts

molson wrote:
Considering those EF lenses were so far ahead of the competition back when they were released, that's not necessarily a bad thing, especially considering the RF versions focus faster, much more accurately, and have much better image stabilization.

Let's be honest here - the skill and determination of the photographer will make significantly more difference in the final image than any minute differences in lens quality between the Canon/Nikon/Sony 400mm and 600mm primes.

How were those two ahead of Sony? Yes, they were ahead of Nikon because Nikon's E FL version were on par with the Canon MkII weights and not these new lighter weight MkIII (eventually RF) versions.

But Sony had their 400 and 600 out at the same time. Sony had better, dual-linear motors and Sony's lenses balanced much better in the hand....between the III and the Sonys the handholding balance wasn't too far off if you were mounting to a DSLR. But if you mounted to MILC or once Canon had to hack-job an EF/RF converter on the end to give us the "RF" version, the handholding balance took another step back compared to handholding the Sony version.

I don't see anything about those RF lenses that were ahead of Sony. Especially the RF versions.

Jul 21, 2024 at 07:56 AM

arbitrage
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p.11 #3 · Canon departure thoughts

armd wrote:
Unfortunately, one cannot use a Nikon lens on a Sony (or Canon) as it would be really cool to pair some of them on a Sony body.

This would be the DREAM...wouldn't it....a Sony body with the Nikon lenses would be drool worth....even the Canon bodies with the Nikon lenses would be a big improvement over Nikon with Nikon....IMHO, YMMV

Jul 21, 2024 at 08:02 AM

bernardl
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p.11 #4 · Canon departure thoughts

arbitrage wrote:
This would be the DREAM...wouldn't it....a Sony body with the Nikon lenses would be drool worth....even the Canon bodies with the Nikon lenses would be a big improvement over Nikon with Nikon....IMHO, YMMV

Yet. Steve Perry thinks that as of fm5.0 the Z9 is the best focusing camera for birding.

Cheers,
Bernard

Jul 21, 2024 at 08:20 AM

icantbebigwill
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p.11 #5 · Canon departure thoughts

I recently test drove a Z8 with the 180-600 vs the R5 with the 200-800 and IMO the Z8 was better in some ways and the R5 was in others.

If the Z8 could find the subject it was faster and stayed locked on better. However I felt like the R5 could find the subject in more situations, and when it didn�t I felt the AF system and button layout was better for quickly activating a secondary AF mode to help find the target.

This lead to me reaching for the Canon combo more often than not. I wanted to like the Z8 more because the Z 50mm 1.8s is my fav lens of all time and I was hoping to love the Z8 enough to switch, but it just didn�t click for me.

This experience did lead to me finding the Tokina Opera 50mm 1.4 which might finally give me an affordable 50 in the same league as the Z lens.

bernardl wrote:
Yet. Steve Perry thinks that as of fm5.0 the Z9 is the best focusing camera for birding.

Cheers,
Bernard

Jul 21, 2024 at 08:58 AM

Dragonfire
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p.11 #6 · Canon departure thoughts

I was in the field with a man shooting the Z9 and 800PF when an Osprey came flying toward us in a clear blue sky and he could not find the bird.

My 1D IV and Sigma 60-600 locked on instantly and I knew the Z9 was not for me.

The R1 and 100-300 IS + 1.4x and 2x is where I will start because I can use my grandchildren as an excuse.

Jul 21, 2024 at 09:06 AM

Cliff L.
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p.11 #7 · Canon departure thoughts

justinzizian wrote:
These threads always seem to devolve into salesmanship, unfortunately. People are going to rush to try to convince you to stay with Canon; others are going to tell you the grass is greener where they're at. It's a personal decision for each of us�what we shoot, where we shoot, how we shoot, budget, expectations. These are things only you can assess at the end of the conversation.

I often wonder why people make these grand "I'm Switching Systems" posts in the first place. If you want to switch brands, go ahead and do it... no need to publicly try to justify your reasons, especially if no one asked. There's no need to try and convince other people to follow you unless you're being sponsored by the new brand (or just really insecure about your decision and are really trying to convince yourself you're making the right choice).

I've changed brands enough that I'm not going to criticize anyone else for doing it... but I usually feel compelled to speak up when I think people post misleading (or patently false) information in an attempt to influence others.

Jul 21, 2024 at 09:53 AM

RoamingScott
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p.11 #8 · Canon departure thoughts

Acting like it�s not a skill issue

Dragonfire wrote:
I was in the field with a man shooting the Z9 and 800PF when an Osprey came flying toward us in a clear blue sky and he could not find the bird.

My 1D IV and Sigma 60-600 locked on instantly and I knew the Z9 was not for me.

The R1 and 100-300 IS + 1.4x and 2x is where I will start because I can use my grandchildren as an excuse.

Jul 21, 2024 at 09:54 AM

Dragonfire
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p.11 #9 · Canon departure thoughts

RoamingScott wrote:
Acting like it�s not a skill issue

The Osprey was at least 600' away and flying straight and level.

Ray Charles could have gotten the shot with my Canon.

Jul 21, 2024 at 10:13 AM

Cliff L.
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p.11 #10 · Canon departure thoughts

armd wrote:
While it was tempting not to reply to your soliloquy, I simply couldn't resist. You're premises are largely correct and for whatever reasons, Canon has not viewed the WL shooter as a core segment of its market. They are committed to video, sports, fashion, etc. and have produced products which perform very well for those genres. The R3 appears to be a heck of a camera for the professional sports shooter, and the R5II will likely yield excellent results for other photographers too. About a year and a half ago, I left Canon not because of the bodies - both...Show more →

I find it interesting that many people here think Canon has ignored or abandoned wildlife shooters.

I know it's an extremely small sample size, but my wife and I took several whale and wildlife watching boat trips earlier this year, and out of the 8-10 participants on each trip, almost every one was using Canon gear. On the first two trips, only me and the pro photographer host were using Nikon, and by the last trip, he was the only Nikon user on the boat. He teased me about the "slow" Canon lenses, until I started sharing some photos with the new gear. He messaged me a few days ago to tell me he had sold off his 800mm PF lens and his Tamrikon 180-600 as well; now literally everyone I personally know who owned those two lenses has sold them.

Jul 21, 2024 at 10:15 AM

gdanmitchell
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p.11 #11 · Canon departure thoughts

johnvanr wrote:
This leapfrogging is mostly based on a few parameters, though. MFT, for example, always loses out while on other parameters Olympus has been and is miles ahead of the FF competition. They had pre-capture years ago, the best IBIS and today still have capture modes the other brands don�t have.

Over time, virtually all aspects continue to get updated and no system generally stays ahead or behind for long � each new iteration generally tends to catch up to the prior entries from the other competitors and (temporarily perhaps) exceed their capabilities in other areas.

That has long been one of my main arguments against too-frequent brand-switching in a desire to have �the very best.�

My point is about the current situation with Canon and the others where this pattern has arguably been broken and, in some ways regarded as important by many photographers, Canon is not really moving the ball forward in that way with the latest introductions.

Again, I�m not saying that everyone should give up their Canon gear and move to another platform � it still works well and for those deeply invested in things like Canon RF lenses, the costs of switching right now are likely too high to justify the gains.

But for those of us � and I�m not the only one in this thread� who are at one of those inflection points where we�d be investing in more than just another body if we stick with Canon, it makes a lot of sense to look around at how the competition has been performing. When I do this this, I see some very appealing alternative options.

johnvanr wrote:
I see your points based on specs, but I wonder how much difference there is in practice between for example Canon 600/4 and Sony 600/4, which basically came out in their last iteration at the same time. Nobody has a modern 500/4 and I think nobody will ever build one again. Quite honestly, I can understand your frustration with Canon versus Nikon in lens line up, but not versus Sony.

To some photographers it would not be irrelevant that you can put those 600mm f/4 lenses on a �flagship� 50MP camera on one platform and on a 24MP camera on the other.

That won�t matter to everyone, at least not to the extent that it warrants a brand change. But for those who are looking at whole systems it can be significant.

Methodical wrote I know you are familiar with Toyota vehicles. Toyota keeps things simple and don't try to incorporate all the fancy electronic gimmicks in their vehicles because of all the potential problems. They use what works and works well for many years. Their vehicles may not be seen as industry leading but they are one of the highest quality vehicles on the road that hold their value better many of the industry leading vehicles. They are effective, trouble free simple vehicles that last probably 10x longer than those fancy industry leading vehicles. That's Canon when it comes to lenses. They...Show more →

I�m not sure that your analogy works quite as perfectly as you think though. For example, Toyota was the lead innovator when it came to hybrid vehicles and later plug-in hybrids. They were also so far ahead of the pack on hydrogen vehicles that they nvested a bunch of money in them before they (seem to have) faded.

johnvanr wrote:
Nikon obviously had to make desperate attempts to not go under and they have performed wonderfully under that pressure..

Ain�t that the truth! Lots of people (including me) thuught that Nikon was about to go out of business, radically change their business, or get bought out. I�m surprised and pleased to see them doing well.

Edited on Jul 21, 2024 at 10:55 AM · View previous versions

Jul 21, 2024 at 10:36 AM

AmbientMike
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p.11 #12 · Canon departure thoughts

Another thing that cuts into any 200 600 and 600pf excitement is that the 150-600 Sigma C is 6.3 at 600mm,and has more zoom range than the 200-600. And has been around since who knows when

Jul 21, 2024 at 10:37 AM

AmbientMike
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p.11 #13 · Canon departure thoughts

gdanmitchell wrote:
Over time, virtually all aspects continue to get updated and no system generally stays ahead or behind for long � each new iteration generally tends to catch up to the prior entries from the other competitors and (temporarily perhaps) exceed their capabilities in other areas.

That has long been one of my main arguments against too-frequent brand-switching in a desire to have �the very best.�

My point is about the current situation with Canon and the others where this pattern has arguably been broken and, in some ways regarded as important by many photographers, Canon is not really moving the ball forward...Show more →

You mean Sony's flagship (did they ever get build on any of theirs up to true flagship levels?) only has as many pixels vs your 2015 5DsR?

Jul 21, 2024 at 10:45 AM

shadow9d9
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p.11 #14 · Canon departure thoughts

Yep, supremely self absorbed people who abuse return policy don't care if they hurt everyone else. They are solely focused on themselves.

johnvanr wrote:
Sorry, but that�s a practice I don�t agree with. If you want to try something, rent or buy used, but don�t abuse generous return policies. That behavior is going to hurt all of us in the end.

Jul 21, 2024 at 02:38 PM

dorian
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p.11 #15 · Canon departure thoughts

Dragonfire wrote:
The Osprey was at least 600' away and flying straight and level.

Ray Charles could have gotten the shot with my Canon.

I would not judge any camera on its ability to focus on a bird at 600' as shots taken at that distance have a very, very low ceiling. Between air distortion and low resolution after cropping, shots from that distance generally aren't worth taking. Sure, if you're trying to document the first US record of Eurasian Griffon you'll be able to do it, but you aren't gonna get a single feather detail at that distance with any lens.

Jul 21, 2024 at 02:43 PM

shadow9d9
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p.11 #16 · Canon departure thoughts

ramage wrote:
In my opinion, this thread is replete with dogmatic statements, making it difficult to take seriously. I find the practice of presenting personal opinions as irrefutable facts particularly irksome. With a modest exertion of effort, these opinions masquerading as facts could be transformed into thought-provoking conversation starters.

I've observed an increasing trend toward dichotomous viewpoints in discussions. The prevailing sentiment often categorizes (insert brand #1) as subpar while positioning (insert brand #2) as superior. The expression of dissenting views is frequently met with derision, thus diminishing engagement.

For nearly two decades, I have chosen Canon as my preferred brand. I acknowledge...Show more →

There have been many assessments of how the tech has advanced. The problem is that most people have a limited imagination, and if they don't have access to it, they dismiss it. Ignorance is bliss and what they haven't experienced is the equivalent of not existing in most people's minds. The A9's stacked sensor, for example. Silent shooting, vibration free, and no blackout. Until one experiences it themselves, they dismiss it as being unimportant. It was a game changer.

Most people need to experience new tech in order to truly comprehend how much of a leap forward it is.

Jul 21, 2024 at 02:53 PM

RoamingScott
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p.11 #17 · Canon departure thoughts

These threads serve 1 good purpose and that�s as a test of who to pay attention to in the future. I�d love to see that pic at 600�.

dorian wrote:
I would not judge any camera on its ability to focus on a bird at 600' as shots taken at that distance have a very, very low ceiling. Between air distortion and low resolution after cropping, shots from that distance generally aren't worth taking. Sure, if you're trying to document the first US record of Eurasian Griffon you'll be able to do it, but you aren't gonna get a single feather detail at that distance with any lens.

Jul 21, 2024 at 02:58 PM

Dragonfire
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p.11 #18 · Canon departure thoughts

dorian wrote:
I would not judge any camera on its ability to focus on a bird at 600' as shots taken at that distance have a very, very low ceiling. Between air distortion and low resolution after cropping, shots from that distance generally aren't worth taking. Sure, if you're trying to document the first US record of Eurasian Griffon you'll be able to do it, but you aren't gonna get a single feather detail at that distance with any lens.

Get real Jack, he could not track the Osprey as it flew overhead at 30'.

Jul 21, 2024 at 03:18 PM

bernardl
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p.11 #19 · Canon departure thoughts

Dragonfire wrote:
Get real Jack, he could not track the Osprey as it flew overhead at 30'.

If your decision to consider a camera results from the experience of an unknown shooter of unknown skills using unknown settings to capture a single instance of a bird then you weren�t very interested to start with, sorry.

You realize that some of the best bird photographers in the world keep reporting wonderful results with that very combo. How could you conclude that the one case you report about can be representative of its abilities?

Odds are that he could not even frame the bird�

And, in case you are really interested in mirrorless for birds, the behavior of all cameras differs from DSLRs since the sensor is used for focusing. If the lens is focused either significantly closer or farther that the subject initially then the camera typically struggles to recognize the presence of a subject. This is not a Z9 issue. They all suffer from it.

Cheers,
Bernard

Jul 21, 2024 at 03:40 PM

Dragonfire
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p.11 #20 · Canon departure thoughts

He shoots a Z9/800PF and his wife shoots a Z8/600 and he usually leaves with 3k to 4k shots.

His success ratio is far, far below my 1D IV with a single focus point and 10fps.

Odds are your "best" bird photographers success ratio is equally low.

Jul 21, 2024 at 03:52 PM

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