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Archive 2024 · Canon departure thoughts

  
 
swldstn
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p.10 #1 · Canon departure thoughts


molson wrote:
What so many people fail to comprehend is that Canon is a company that is in business to return a profit for their shareholders. Catering to a handful of bored rich people on some internet forum is hardly a sound business practice.


If you think Nikon, Sony and others are in this business for any other reason than to return a profit you should really sit down and come up with another reason that makes sense and present it to us. Canon’s third party RF mount AF restrictions indicate that their sole interest is profitability at the expense of everything else..



Jul 20, 2024 at 08:55 PM
melcat
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p.10 #2 · Canon departure thoughts


bernardl wrote:
...the much smaller Nikon was able to release in less than 2 years a full line up of super télés fine tuned for birders?


It was obvious from the start of the Nikon Z system, with the slower but high quality initial lenses, that they were going for outdoors/hiker/adventure travel types in a way that Canon weren’t. Birding and wildlife was a natural extension to that. It makes sense, because the kind of people who can afford these kinds of activities often also have the money for camera gear, and the iPhone isn’t coming for that market any time soon, if ever.

My impression is that the gear many birders aspire to is the OM Systems OM-1 and either the 150–400mm f/4.5 (with inbuilt 1.25×) or the 300mm f/4. With that and Nikon very popular in the market, it doesn’t leave much for Canon. Really just people like me who do a bit of birding on the side and have Canon gear already.

If we look at Canon’s attempts at birding stuff, it seems largely to have been developed without much actual knowledge of birding. The 600mm and 800mm f/11 don’t have weather sealing or hoods and only AF in the middle. The R7 came with a weird new interface (don’t they know birding is heavily skewed to the elderly?) and didn’t work properly with the most popular third-party EF mount lens for birding. The 200–800 was a bit better, but in their eagerness to one-up Sony’s 200–600 they omitted the crucial internal zoom feature of the Sony, and the lack of a manual focussing ring is a problem given the cameras’ tendency to jump onto the background in many typical birding situations. It seems that marketing identifies a segment and price, and engineering is then told to go and tick some boxes. If there were continuous feedback during product design, we shouldn’t be seeing these deficiencies.

Contrast this with sports, where they’ve obviously worked closely with basketball photographers to train the R1 to recognise specific moves in that specific sport.



Jul 20, 2024 at 09:18 PM
robert_in_ca
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p.10 #3 · Canon departure thoughts


drobertfranz wrote:
I don't agree that the RF600mm handles any different than the Sony 600mm. Used them side by side by side, seemed identical to me. Not sure about the Nikon 600mm F4 with TC. Never had a chance to use one. Think the RF600 is the lightest of the 3 however...


I don't own the Sony 600 (only used it briefly) but I do own the Z 600TC. The RF 600 is around half a pound lighter than the Z 600 (not sure about the Sony), but the Nikon is around 1.5" shorter. Also the weight of the Z 600 is back of center towards the body whereas the RF 600 is not. I also found that to be the case with the RF 400mm 2.8 that I sold when I picked up the Z 400mm 2.8TC.

Again they're all great lenses and one is not (in my opinion) dramatically better than the other. Although I like the Canon button placement, customization and overall ergos of their bodies more than Nikon, for me I love having the built in TC more.



Jul 20, 2024 at 09:30 PM
robert_in_ca
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p.10 #4 · Canon departure thoughts


armd wrote:
While it was tempting not to reply to your soliloquy, I simply couldn't resist. You're premises are largely correct and for whatever reasons, Canon has not viewed the WL shooter as a core segment of its market. They are committed to video, sports, fashion, etc. and have produced products which perform very well for those genres. The R3 appears to be a heck of a camera for the professional sports shooter, and the R5II will likely yield excellent results for other photographers too. About a year and a half ago, I left Canon not because of the bodies - both
...Show more

Totally agree. I jumped ship when got the 400TC and now 600TC. With each firmware the Z9/ Z8 is getting better and better but Canon's AF is still a step ahead.

I've been looking over a trove of photos that I took with both my R5 and R3 vs my Z9 and Z8, and I've notice that nearly all my Canon images are pin sharp whereas that is not always the case with either Z body. So I am thinking about selling my Z8, 70-200 and grabbing the R3 + 100-300mm for low light shooting to have along with my Z9 + 600mm.

On thing though - the R5 is a great camera for wildlife shooting and even using it with the RF 100-500 delivers some pretty damn good images (see below).




  Canon EOS R5    RF100-500mm F4.5-7.1 L IS USM lens    363mm    f/5.6    1/2500s    500 ISO    0.0 EV  






  Canon EOS R5    RF100-500mm F4.5-7.1 L IS USM lens    472mm    f/7.1    1/200s    160 ISO    0.0 EV  






  Canon EOS R5    RF100-500mm F4.5-7.1 L IS USM lens    500mm    f/7.1    1/2500s    3200 ISO    0.0 EV  



Edited on Jul 20, 2024 at 11:36 PM · View previous versions



Jul 20, 2024 at 09:44 PM
dorian
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p.10 #5 · Canon departure thoughts


robert_in_ca wrote:
It’s a great lens but it was not designed or engineered for the RF mount. The additional length is essential the welded on adapter, and the lens is a bit front heavy compared to the Nikon Z or Sony versions. Again not that it’s bad, but it’s not a lens that was developed from the ground up like the 28-70mm f/2.0 or 100-300mm f/2.8 was.


THIS. Exactly. Nowhere have I said the RF600 isn’t a great lens, but there’s no denying that it feels like an EF-RF hybrid or ‘place holder’ while Canon develops an updated version that is engineered and built specifically for the RF system. And right now, there doesn’t seem to be a plan to take that next step as they’ve done with the 100-300, for example. Am I being greedy? You’re goddamn right I am because it’s my $10-13K! When I bought my EF 600 II, I knew it was the best tool on the planet for the sort of shooting that I do. I cannot say the same about the RF600. And, again, the R5II will be a sweet camera. I’m just not sure it is the best tool on the planet as was my 1DX2 when I purchased that body. My current R5 is great but was purchased as a bridge to what I hoped/thought would be an eventual high-MP flagship. Now that Canon isn’t going to deliver that (or the updated lenses I want), I’m looking elsewhere. I fully understand I'm making huge and esoteric demands, but again, it's my money. I compromise on everything else -- food, clothes, housing, car, etc -- to have the money to spend on the one thing on which I will not compromise: camera gear. And right now, Canon is making me feel like I'm compromising. That might be sound silly or stupid or even spoiled to some, but it is what it is.



Jul 20, 2024 at 11:24 PM
robert_in_ca
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p.10 #6 · Canon departure thoughts


dorian wrote:
THIS. Exactly. Nowhere have I said the RF600 isn’t a great lens, but there’s no denying that it feels like an EF-RF hybrid or ‘place holder’ while Canon develops an updated version that is engineered and built specifically for the RF system. And right now, there doesn’t seem to be a plan to take that next step as they’ve done with the 100-300, for example. Am I being greedy? You’re goddamn right I am because it’s my $10-13K! When I bought my EF 600 II, I knew it was the best tool on the planet for the sort of shooting
...Show more

Sorry I didn't say nor imply that you said the RF 600 isn't a great lens. To the rest of your comment I hear you and totally get where you're coming from.



Jul 20, 2024 at 11:35 PM
Cliff L.
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p.10 #7 · Canon departure thoughts


swldstn wrote:
If you think Nikon, Sony and others are in this business for any other reason than to return a profit you should really sit down and come up with another reason that makes sense and present it to us.


That statement makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Of course Nikon and Sony are in it to make a profit, or they would have gone out of business a long time ago.


Canon’s third party RF mount AF restrictions indicate that their sole interest is profitability at the expense of everything else..

Maybe it's just because Canon makes their own lenses, and doesn't have to rely on third-party manufacturers for produce lenses for them like Nikon does, or own controlling interest in a third-party lens manufacturer like Sony does.



Jul 21, 2024 at 12:07 AM
johnvanr
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p.10 #8 · Canon departure thoughts


dorian wrote:
Well put, thanks. And here’s the rub (which seems forgotten by some); bird photography demands a lot from the gear. Acquiring and tracking a small, erratic subject in flight, for example, might be the hardest technological ask we make of consumer cameras. Having incredible AF and high density sensors will maximize the number of images we can create against otherwise daunting circumstances. And long, light (and hopefully fast) lenses to aid the tracking of speedy birds? Yep, bring those on, too. Hell, I spend a lot of my of time flat on my stomach, army crawling through mud and water,
...Show more

With your background, I’d ask the big brands for loaners so you can test them. I’d go for Nikon based on lenses, but I see people complaining about AF compared to Canon and Sony, so you’d have to try it first.

Personally, I’m happy with MFT, since it’s lighter and often the number of pixels per bird are the same as with FF. Your background separation would be harder, but Peter Bambousek can do it.

I don’t know anything about you, other than that you make great images and are highly regarded in your field. Seems to me there are ways you can capitalize on that and make some serious dough.



Jul 21, 2024 at 01:15 AM
johnvanr
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p.10 #9 · Canon departure thoughts


gdanmitchell wrote:
Totally true.

I remember the first time I tried bird photography. I was a very experienced photographer, but had not worked with that subject before. half the time I couldn’t even get the darn bird (flying cranes and geese mostly) in the frame, and when I did I was almost completely unable to keep them in the AF zone.

Eventually, with lots of bird photography under my belt, I got to the point where I can (usually) track the critters in flight, think about where I want them in the frame, pay attention to the relative placement of multiple birds and
...Show more

This leapfrogging is mostly based on a few parameters, though. MFT, for example, always loses out while on other parameters Olympus has been and is miles ahead of the FF competition. They had pre-capture years ago, the best IBIS and today still have capture modes the other brands don’t have.



Jul 21, 2024 at 01:21 AM
johnvanr
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p.10 #10 · Canon departure thoughts


ChrisMak wrote:
This thread shows a lot of bias, either pro canon or against canon.
But I think it would be hard to argue that the OP does not have a valid point to make.
Canon has been exceptionally conservative or perhaps just disinterested in these past years when it comes to bodies and lenses for wildlife photography.
I mean, how long has it been since a RF500mm f4/f4.5DO was allegedly tested in the field with various other long lenses, only to never hear from any of these cutting edge high end lenses again.
And why did it have to take until 2024 to bring a
...Show more

As I said before, it’s not that Canon isn’t thinking ahead but that they have defined their priorities differently and not in line with what people here want and expect. The focus in general has shifted to the pro markets, to video and to content creators. This is mostly a community of still photographers, with many practicing wildlife photography.

We’re already taking in stride or complain without effect about video, flippy screens etc.

It’s not just Canon. Zeiss seems to have abandoned the stills market to focus on cinema only.



Jul 21, 2024 at 01:27 AM
AmbientMike
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p.10 #11 · Canon departure thoughts


This thread is mostly about the same stuff that didn't make a lot of sense before, the last time we heard it.

The 100-500 isn't that expensive by FM standards since it's roughly the cost of a new 70-200/2.8. I have no real idea why people get so excited over the 200-600, it's almost the same exact weight as the alt 300/2.8 that gave me a sore elbow, the 100-500 is much lighter and Canon innovated on the 200-800, basically 1.4 built in to 200 600

Then people come along trying to say Canon has no superteles and no innovation. They have all kinds of superteles they innovated on.



Jul 21, 2024 at 01:33 AM
dorian
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p.10 #12 · Canon departure thoughts


robert_in_ca wrote:
Sorry I didn't say nor imply that you said the RF 600 isn't a great lens. To the rest of your comment I hear you and totally get where you're coming from.


Sorry, that was meant for others! It just seemed that was directed at you since I used your post/thoughts as my springboard.




Jul 21, 2024 at 01:41 AM
johnvanr
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p.10 #13 · Canon departure thoughts


dorian wrote:
200-800 too slow
100-500 too slow, too short
100-400 too short
800/11 too slow
600/11 too slow

RF 400 - still and EF lens at its core
RF 600 - same as above

200/2 too short
300/2.8 too short

What I want -- and what Nikon or Sony has NOW - is a redesigned (i.e. complete overhaul, new motor) 500/4, 600/4, 600/5.6, 600/6.3, or 800/6.3. And if Canon would put a TC in any of those, that would be even better. Canon does has some sweet mid-price long lenses or long zooms, but I want a top-of-the-market prime to match what Nikon and Son have (again) NOW. At present,
...Show more

I see your points based on specs, but I wonder how much difference there is in practice between for example Canon 600/4 and Sony 600/4, which basically came out in their last iteration at the same time. Nobody has a modern 500/4 and I think nobody will ever build one again. Quite honestly, I can understand your frustration with Canon versus Nikon in lens line up, but not versus Sony.



Jul 21, 2024 at 01:42 AM
Methodical
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p.10 #14 · Canon departure thoughts


crisdesign wrote:
Apart from the high price, there’s nothing industry leading about canon superteles.




I know you are familiar with Toyota vehicles. Toyota keeps things simple and don't try to incorporate all the fancy electronic gimmicks in their vehicles because of all the potential problems. They use what works and works well for many years. Their vehicles may not be seen as industry leading but they are one of the highest quality vehicles on the road that hold their value better many of the industry leading vehicles. They are effective, trouble free simple vehicles that last probably 10x longer than those fancy industry leading vehicles. That's Canon when it comes to lenses. They may not be industry leading but they are excellent quality lenses that work, sharp, last long and maintains value. KISS...




Jul 21, 2024 at 02:14 AM
Methodical
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p.10 #15 · Canon departure thoughts


bernardl wrote:
Perhaps his point isn’t about a specific lens but more broadly about his perceived lack of focus of Canon on birding?

If I am not mistaken his disappointment with the RF 600mm f4 is first and foremost the lack of built-in TC, isn’t it?

Could it be that, as a pro, he has to get the shot in a limited amount of time and thinks that a built-in TC helps in that regard? That would certainly echo my own experience.

Canon shooters I know seem very happy about the built-in TC in their 200-400mm f4.

Cheers,
Bernard


I just keep a TC on the lens. That's my flip switch...hahaha




Jul 21, 2024 at 02:48 AM
Methodical
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p.10 #16 · Canon departure thoughts


Dragonfire wrote:
I can't switch!!! My wife knows I shoot Canon and a Nikon or Sony could raise questions I am not prepared to answer.

I pre-order at 6:10am on the 17th from B&H.

Don't tell my wife


When did (time wise) pre-order open up?

Hey, the way I see it, if these folks aren't happy with Canon and move to another player there will be less competition for me to get the R5II in a reasonable time.




Jul 21, 2024 at 02:51 AM
ChrisMak
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p.10 #17 · Canon departure thoughts


johnvanr wrote:
As I said before, it’s not that Canon isn’t thinking ahead but that they have defined their priorities differently and not in line with what people here want and expect. The focus in general has shifted to the pro markets, to video and to content creators. This is mostly a community of still photographers, with many practicing wildlife photography.

We’re already taking in stride or complain without effect about video, flippy screens etc.

It’s not just Canon. Zeiss seems to have abandoned the stills market to focus on cinema only.


I am aware the camera market has been changing fast in the past years, and that also applies to the end user that they are targeting. I don't see however why Canon, being as big as it has been traditionally in the camera industry, stills as well as video, has to put a big brake on their long lens development, and in doing so scare away the wildlife/birding crowd (small as it may be) that favored Canon in the past.

As I mentioned, there were multiple rumors about exiting long DO RF lenses being tested in the wild as far back as the first Canon EOS R times, but most of that petered out. With Nikon picking up speed in the last two years with a complete new and innovative Z long lens line up, the contrast with Canon on this front has become so stark, that I can fully understand questions arising as to why Canon apparently unacceptably slowed the pace on especially the RF long lens segment and stills camera segment.

Perhaps the Canon managers take a similar view on wildlife/birding photographers as was voiced in the other quote of my post: a spoiled and bored bunch with too much cash that want new toys to brag about . While the true photographers community that should be served are the hard working content creators that use the equipment to make a living, and in doing so Canon satisfies the shareholders at the same time. You never know, it might just be the case.
A pity if so, I was really keen on the rumored RF500mm f4.5 DO, the DO technology in their EF400DOII was top notch.



Jul 21, 2024 at 03:43 AM
Dragonfire
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p.10 #18 · Canon departure thoughts


Methodical wrote:
When did (time wise) pre-order open up?


July 17th at 6am eastern. I ordered from B&H and they anticipate an "Est. Ship Date: Tue Nov 26"




Jul 21, 2024 at 04:41 AM
johnvanr
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p.10 #19 · Canon departure thoughts


ChrisMak wrote:
I am aware the camera market has been changing fast in the past years, and that also applies to the end user that they are targeting. I don't see however why Canon, being as big as it has been traditionally in the camera industry, stills as well as video, has to put a big brake on their long lens development, and in doing so scare away the wildlife/birding crowd (small as it may be) that favored Canon in the past.

As I mentioned, there were multiple rumors about exiting long DO RF lenses being tested in the wild as far back
...Show more

Nikon obviously had to make desperate attempts to not go under and they have performed wonderfully under that pressure.

I think Canon decided that they already covered the upper end with their 600 and 400. They took on the Sony 200-600 with the 100-500. And they gave the lower end of the market the unique 600 and 800 f/11s. The latter ones may not be our cup of tea, but you see plenty of them at birding locations.

And whether we like it or not (I don’t), but their lens development is obviously focused on hybrid lenses that appeal to a much broader swath of people. Same will probably apply to Nikon soon, now that they’ve bought Red.

I keep going back to MFT, where like with Nikon, you see a focus on the bird and wildlife market, but to the detriment in MFT’s case of the ‘usual’ market, where the lenses are getting long in the tooth.



Jul 21, 2024 at 05:20 AM
swldstn
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p.10 #20 · Canon departure thoughts


molson wrote:
That statement makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Of course Nikon and Sony are in it to make a profit, or they would have gone out of business a long time ago.


Maybe it's just because Canon makes their own lenses, and doesn't have to rely on third-party manufacturers for produce lenses for them like Nikon does, or own controlling interest in a third-party lens manufacturer like Sony does.


Canon has been super slow is putting wider angle RF L quality lenses @ 14mm, 20/21mm, 24mm, 35mm, and 40mm into their ecosystem.They appear to have no interest in photo but only video with their 35mm VCM. Used to take my 5DIV to travel when not using my 1DX for sports but have not been able to do that with the R5 I own. That’s left up to my Sonys for a long time now.

The profitability statement I made was based on the fact that you justified Canon’s behavior based on the need to make a profit. Other manufacturers have shown that there are other ways to achieve this since their goals are the same that obviously appeal to their customers more based on the feedback throughout this thread. More than one way be successful. If not I would not be using multiple systems like a lot of people here.

Note: I will probably add an R5 II to my RF system so I can get a stacked sensor body for wildlife and maybe BIF but both Sony and Nikon have products that will continue to keep my interest. I’m not selling my RF L lens family anytime soon.




Jul 21, 2024 at 07:31 AM
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