This topic is in the 2023 archive. You can read it and like its posts here. It is read only.
Archive 2023Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
p.7 #1Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
jwpstl wrote:
they simply made a different style of camera for a certain segment of the market.
To me, with this last releases of A7cII/R, at least, they are doing exactly the opposite: mixing everything up, erasing the edges between "hybrid" and stills-oriented cameras. It is more difficult these days to make an informed decision of what camera to buy just because there are only tiny differences between them.
The R line was always a stills-oriented line of cameras. Why are they pushing it towards "hybrid" style then? Why have they decided to go for a "selfie" type of screen in a stills oriented A7cR camera? Ok, if they decided to go cheap and not employ the 4D articulated screen of A7R5 onto its small brother, then they should have gone the "tilt-type" route, as they did with the entire "R" line of cameras. I care nothing about video, still I have to pay for all the video options they decided to employ into a stills oriented camera.
So NO, they are not differentiating their cameras for market segments, at least not in my opinion. Everything will end-up, sooner than latter, as "hybrid". Just because this is the simplest way for Sony, I guess.
they simply made a different style of camera for a certain segment of the market.
To me, with this last releases of A7cII/R, at least, they are doing exactly the opposite: mixing everything up, erasing the edges between "hybrid" and stills-oriented cameras. It is more difficult these days to make an informed decision of what camera to buy just because there are only tiny differences between them.
The R line was always a stills-oriented line of cameras. Why are they pushing it towards "hybrid" style then? Why have they decided to go for a "selfie" type of screen in a stills oriented A7cR camera? Ok, if they decided to go cheap and not employ the 4D articulated screen of A7R5 onto its small brother, then they should have gone the "tilt-type" route, as they did with the entire "R" line of cameras. I care nothing about video, still I have to pay for all the video options they decided to employ into a stills oriented camera.
So NO, they are not differentiating their cameras for market segments, at least not in my opinion. Everything will end-up, sooner than latter, as "hybrid". Just because this is the simplest way for Sony, I guess.
Sep 04, 2023 at 03:21 PM
p.7 #2Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
chiron wrote:
I haven't heard anyone propose the A7Cxx series for professional use, so this conversation about card slots seems very misplaced.
But while we are on the subject of card slots, I believe that Lecias, through the M10-R, have had only one card slot and no one seems to think that is a reason not to buy them or to value them as useful and fine cameras. I don't remember it even being discussed.
I guess
Maybe I just underestimate the number of photographers doing technical HSS shooting with strobes and super fast glass on an entry level body. The R isn't entry level and at that price point Sony probably could have afforded to put the more expensive shutter in (although the R is a full $900 cheaper than the 5!!!) but the ii will be Sony's cheapest FF camera that isn't at least 5 years old. I think people who are frustrated about the cheaper shutter mechanism might be missing the target audience for this camera. That being said, I reserve the right to be wrong 
I haven't heard anyone propose the A7Cxx series for professional use, so this conversation about card slots seems very misplaced.
But while we are on the subject of card slots, I believe that Lecias, through the M10-R, have had only one card slot and no one seems to think that is a reason not to buy them or to value them as useful and fine cameras. I don't remember it even being discussed.
I guess
Maybe I just underestimate the number of photographers doing technical HSS shooting with strobes and super fast glass on an entry level body. The R isn't entry level and at that price point Sony probably could have afforded to put the more expensive shutter in (although the R is a full $900 cheaper than the 5!!!) but the ii will be Sony's cheapest FF camera that isn't at least 5 years old. I think people who are frustrated about the cheaper shutter mechanism might be missing the target audience for this camera. That being said, I reserve the right to be wrong Sep 04, 2023 at 04:20 PM
p.7 #3Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
chiron wrote:
But I had enough of this.I'm glad to hear that nothing you said was intended as an insult. I am happy to have misunderstood.
Not insulting anyone here and rarely do but I’m going to say my peace.
GMPhotography wrote
What insults you’re all sitting here saying it’s okay Sony you made a stupid mistake . I’m not here for that baby ass stuff. I have my opinion and it’s based on 50 years of shooting. My biggest issue is the shutter and not even talking about the bokeh stuff and secondly the EVF. Im not going to sit here and glorify Sonys missteps . Im a huge fan of them but I have been that ambassador for camera makers and I’d be all over their ass on this.But I had enough of this.
Not insulting anyone here and rarely do but I’m going to say my peace.
Sep 04, 2023 at 04:36 PM
p.7 #4Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
chez wrote:
If they want to sell more cameras, they should.
The smartest strategy a company can pursue is to meet the needs of their customers.Really? You think the solution to maximizing profits is build the one camera that has the kitchen sink? You have a lot to learn about product development and marketing.
Yes, absolutely. There is no point in not releasing as good of a product as you can, especially when you don't completely dominate the market. Sony would lose nothing by making the camera appeal to more photographers. They could only win.
jaygould wrote
jwpstl wrote
What's strange is that some people seem to think Sony should make every body fit their needs.The smartest strategy a company can pursue is to meet the needs of their customers.
Yes, absolutely. There is no point in not releasing as good of a product as you can, especially when you don't completely dominate the market. Sony would lose nothing by making the camera appeal to more photographers. They could only win.
Sep 04, 2023 at 06:53 PM
p.7 #5Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
jaygould wrote:
If they want to sell more cameras, they should.
The smartest strategy a company can pursue is to meet the needs of their customers.Really? You think the solution to maximizing profits is build the one camera that has the kitchen sink? You have a lot to learn about product development and marketing.Yes, absolutely. There is no point in not releasing as good of a product as you can, especially when you don't completely dominate the market. Sony would lose nothing by making the camera appeal to more photographers. They could only win.
You think it’s smart product management to release a cheaper product that has basically the same functionality as just released more expensive product. You think that plan would optimize Sony’s revenue?
chez wrote
jaygould wrote
jwpstl wrote
What's strange is that some people seem to think Sony should make every body fit their needs.The smartest strategy a company can pursue is to meet the needs of their customers.
You think it’s smart product management to release a cheaper product that has basically the same functionality as just released more expensive product. You think that plan would optimize Sony’s revenue?
Sep 04, 2023 at 06:59 PM
p.7 #6Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
gunmetal wrote:
But while we are on the subject of card slots, I believe that Lecias, through the M10-R, have had only one card slot and no one seems to think that is a reason not to buy them or to value them as useful and fine cameras. I don't remember it even being discussed.I guess Maybe I just underestimate the number of photographers doing technical HSS shooting with strobes and super fast glass on an entry level body. The R isn't entry level and at that price point Sony probably could have afforded to put the more expensive shutter in (although the R is a full $900 cheaper than the 5!!!) but the ii will be Sony's cheapest FF camera that isn't at least 5 years old. I think people who are frustrated about the cheaper shutter mechanism might be missing the target audience for this camera. That being said, I reserve the...Show more →
Not everything is about the money. Some people just want a small camera that can do it all. Would save me from owning multiple camera bodies. Unfortunately this camera isn't it because it doesn't have a mechanical shutter.
chiron wrote
I haven't heard anyone propose the A7Cxx series for professional use, so this conversation about card slots seems very misplaced.But while we are on the subject of card slots, I believe that Lecias, through the M10-R, have had only one card slot and no one seems to think that is a reason not to buy them or to value them as useful and fine cameras. I don't remember it even being discussed.
Maybe I just underestimate the number of photographers doing technical HSS shooting with strobes and super fast glass on an entry level body. The R isn't entry level and at that price point Sony probably could have afforded to put the more expensive shutter in (although the R is a full $900 cheaper than the 5!!!) but the ii will be Sony's cheapest FF camera that isn't at least 5 years old. I think people who are frustrated about the cheaper shutter mechanism might be missing the target audience for this camera. That being said, I reserve the...Show more →Not everything is about the money. Some people just want a small camera that can do it all. Would save me from owning multiple camera bodies. Unfortunately this camera isn't it because it doesn't have a mechanical shutter.
Sep 04, 2023 at 07:27 PM
p.7 #7Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
jaygould wrote:
But while we are on the subject of card slots, I believe that Lecias, through the M10-R, have had only one card slot and no one seems to think that is a reason not to buy them or to value them as useful and fine cameras. I don't remember it even being discussed.I guess Maybe I just underestimate the number of photographers doing technical HSS shooting with strobes and super fast glass on an entry level body. The R isn't entry level and at that price point Sony probably could have afforded to put the more expensive shutter in (although the R is a full $900 cheaper than the 5!!!) but the ii will be Sony's cheapest FF camera that isn't at least 5 years old. I think people who are frustrated about the cheaper shutter mechanism might be missing the target audience for this camera. That being said, I reserve the right to be wrong Not everything is about the money. Some people just want a small camera that can do it all. Would save me from owning multiple camera bodies. Unfortunately this camera isn't it because it doesn't have a mechanical shutter.
The corporate investors and management might think differently than you. At the end Sony’s responsibility is to its investors and not its customers or the market or the photography community. Sony has done what they think is the best tradeoff to meet their responsibilities. No camera is perfect. They made tradeoffs to price the A7CR $1000 USD below the A7RV. If I want all the features, like I do, I bought the A7RV. I can now buy it for much less and the only thing I have to compromise is size and weight. We all have to decide what is important to us.
gunmetal wrote
chiron wrote
I haven't heard anyone propose the A7Cxx series for professional use, so this conversation about card slots seems very misplaced.But while we are on the subject of card slots, I believe that Lecias, through the M10-R, have had only one card slot and no one seems to think that is a reason not to buy them or to value them as useful and fine cameras. I don't remember it even being discussed.
Maybe I just underestimate the number of photographers doing technical HSS shooting with strobes and super fast glass on an entry level body. The R isn't entry level and at that price point Sony probably could have afforded to put the more expensive shutter in (although the R is a full $900 cheaper than the 5!!!) but the ii will be Sony's cheapest FF camera that isn't at least 5 years old. I think people who are frustrated about the cheaper shutter mechanism might be missing the target audience for this camera. That being said, I reserve the right to be wrong The corporate investors and management might think differently than you. At the end Sony’s responsibility is to its investors and not its customers or the market or the photography community. Sony has done what they think is the best tradeoff to meet their responsibilities. No camera is perfect. They made tradeoffs to price the A7CR $1000 USD below the A7RV. If I want all the features, like I do, I bought the A7RV. I can now buy it for much less and the only thing I have to compromise is size and weight. We all have to decide what is important to us.
Sep 04, 2023 at 07:46 PM
p.7 #8Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
Knut. wrote:
Could you show some more pictures or comparisons?
If you haven't seen it yet, https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1822915/1#16330456%22]this post[/url] (https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1822915/1#16330456) earlier in this thread links to probably the best realistic comparisons " target="_blank" rel="nofollow">from this youtube video. The others are more synthetic that specifically highlight the issue.
Edited on Sep 20, 2023 at 06:58 AM · View previous versions
Fboss wrote
EFCS is a problem for me at high (> 1/2000 sec) shutter speeds, it clearly degrades the bokeh. I always switch to full mechanical or electronic shutter when using a fast lens on the A7RV. I have ruined pictures in the past when I didn't know the impact of the EFCS on the bokeh.If you haven't seen it yet, https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1822915/1#16330456%22]this post[/url] (https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1822915/1#16330456) earlier in this thread links to probably the best realistic comparisons " target="_blank" rel="nofollow">from this youtube video. The others are more synthetic that specifically highlight the issue.
Edited on Sep 20, 2023 at 06:58 AM · View previous versions
Sep 04, 2023 at 07:48 PM
p.7 #9Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
swldstn wrote:
But while we are on the subject of card slots, I believe that Lecias, through the M10-R, have had only one card slot and no one seems to think that is a reason not to buy them or to value them as useful and fine cameras. I don't remember it even being discussed.I guess Maybe I just underestimate the number of photographers doing technical HSS shooting with strobes and super fast glass on an entry level body. The R isn't entry level and at that price point Sony probably could have afforded to put the more expensive shutter in (although the R is a full $900 cheaper than the 5!!!) but the ii will be Sony's cheapest FF camera that isn't at least 5 years old. I think people who are frustrated about the cheaper shutter mechanism might be missing the target audience for this camera. That being said, I reserve the right to be wrong Not everything is about the money. Some people just want a small camera that can do it all. Would save me from owning multiple camera bodies. Unfortunately this camera isn't it because it doesn't have a mechanical shutter.The corporate investors and management might think differently than you. At the end Sony’s responsibility is to its investors and not its customers or the market or the photography community. Sony has done what they think is the best tradeoff to meet their responsibilities. No camera is perfect. They made tradeoffs to price the A7CR $1000 USD below the A7RV. If I want all the features, like I do, I bought the A7RV. I can now buy it for much less and the only thing I have to compromise is size and weight. We all have to decide what is...Show more →
I mean not everything is about the money for the customer. Many are happy to pay more for more features.
I bought the A7RV. I can now buy it for much less and the only thing I have to compromise is size and weight. We all have to decide what is important to us.
I am not interested in a large camera. I don't care about what features it has. I am also not interested in a small camera, if it lacks the basic features that has been in digital cameras for decades (like a mechanical shutter). So Sony's strategy didn't work on me. Now they got zero sales instead of one.
jaygould wrote
gunmetal wrote
chiron wrote
I haven't heard anyone propose the A7Cxx series for professional use, so this conversation about card slots seems very misplaced.But while we are on the subject of card slots, I believe that Lecias, through the M10-R, have had only one card slot and no one seems to think that is a reason not to buy them or to value them as useful and fine cameras. I don't remember it even being discussed.
Maybe I just underestimate the number of photographers doing technical HSS shooting with strobes and super fast glass on an entry level body. The R isn't entry level and at that price point Sony probably could have afforded to put the more expensive shutter in (although the R is a full $900 cheaper than the 5!!!) but the ii will be Sony's cheapest FF camera that isn't at least 5 years old. I think people who are frustrated about the cheaper shutter mechanism might be missing the target audience for this camera. That being said, I reserve the right to be wrong I mean not everything is about the money for the customer. Many are happy to pay more for more features.
I bought the A7RV. I can now buy it for much less and the only thing I have to compromise is size and weight. We all have to decide what is important to us.
I am not interested in a large camera. I don't care about what features it has. I am also not interested in a small camera, if it lacks the basic features that has been in digital cameras for decades (like a mechanical shutter). So Sony's strategy didn't work on me. Now they got zero sales instead of one.
Sep 04, 2023 at 07:57 PM
p.7 #10Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
So you're not interested in any full frame cameras at the moment?
The a7R V is sort of "in between" the size of your 6D and R10.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#889,898,380,ha,f
jaygould wrote:
But while we are on the subject of card slots, I believe that Lecias, through the M10-R, have had only one card slot and no one seems to think that is a reason not to buy them or to value them as useful and fine cameras. I don't remember it even being discussed.I guess Maybe I just underestimate the number of photographers doing technical HSS shooting with strobes and super fast glass on an entry level body. The R isn't entry level and at that price point Sony probably could have afforded to put the more expensive shutter in (although the R is a full $900 cheaper than the 5!!!) but the ii will be Sony's cheapest FF camera that isn't at least 5 years old. I think people who are frustrated about the cheaper shutter mechanism might be missing the target audience for this camera. That being said, I reserve the right to be wrong Not everything is about the money. Some people just want a small camera that can do it all. Would save me from owning multiple camera bodies. Unfortunately this camera isn't it because it doesn't have a mechanical shutter.The corporate investors and management might think differently than you. At the end Sony’s responsibility is to its investors and not its customers or the market or the photography community. Sony has done what they think is the best tradeoff to meet their responsibilities. No camera is perfect. They made tradeoffs to price the A7CR $1000 USD below the A7RV. If I want all the features, like I do, I bought the A7RV. I can now buy it for much less and the only thing I have to compromise is size and weight. We all have to decide what is important to us.I mean not everything is about the money for the customer. Many are happy to pay more for more features.
I am not interested in a large camera. I don't care about what features it has. I am also not interested in a small camera, if it lacks the basic features that has been in digital cameras for decades (like a mechanical shutter). So Sony's strategy didn't work on me. Now they got zero sales instead of one.
Edited on Sep 04, 2023 at 08:30 PM · View previous versions
The a7R V is sort of "in between" the size of your 6D and R10.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#889,898,380,ha,f
jaygould wrote:
swldstn wrote
jaygould wrote
gunmetal wrote
chiron wrote
I haven't heard anyone propose the A7Cxx series for professional use, so this conversation about card slots seems very misplaced.But while we are on the subject of card slots, I believe that Lecias, through the M10-R, have had only one card slot and no one seems to think that is a reason not to buy them or to value them as useful and fine cameras. I don't remember it even being discussed.
Maybe I just underestimate the number of photographers doing technical HSS shooting with strobes and super fast glass on an entry level body. The R isn't entry level and at that price point Sony probably could have afforded to put the more expensive shutter in (although the R is a full $900 cheaper than the 5!!!) but the ii will be Sony's cheapest FF camera that isn't at least 5 years old. I think people who are frustrated about the cheaper shutter mechanism might be missing the target audience for this camera. That being said, I reserve the right to be wrong Earlier quote
I bought the A7RV. I can now buy it for much less and the only thing I have to compromise is size and weight. We all have to decide what is important to us.Edited on Sep 04, 2023 at 08:30 PM · View previous versions
Sep 04, 2023 at 08:03 PM
p.7 #11Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
jaygould wrote:
But while we are on the subject of card slots, I believe that Lecias, through the M10-R, have had only one card slot and no one seems to think that is a reason not to buy them or to value them as useful and fine cameras. I don't remember it even being discussed.I guess Maybe I just underestimate the number of photographers doing technical HSS shooting with strobes and super fast glass on an entry level body. The R isn't entry level and at that price point Sony probably could have afforded to put the more expensive shutter in (although the R is a full $900 cheaper than the 5!!!) but the ii will be Sony's cheapest FF camera that isn't at least 5 years old. I think people who are frustrated about the cheaper shutter mechanism might be missing the target audience for this camera. That being said, I reserve the right to be wrong Not everything is about the money. Some people just want a small camera that can do it all. Would save me from owning multiple camera bodies. Unfortunately this camera isn't it because it doesn't have a mechanical shutter.The corporate investors and management might think differently than you. At the end Sony’s responsibility is to its investors and not its customers or the market or the photography community. Sony has done what they think is the best tradeoff to meet their responsibilities. No camera is perfect. They made tradeoffs to price the A7CR $1000 USD below the A7RV. If I want all the features, like I do, I bought the A7RV. I can now buy it for much less and the only thing I have to compromise is size and weight. We all have to decide what is important to us.I mean not everything is about the money for the customer. Many are happy to pay more for more features.
I am not interested in a large camera. I don't care about what features it has. I am also not interested in a small camera, if it lacks the basic features that has been in digital cameras for decades (like a mechanical shutter). So Sony's strategy didn't work on me. Now they got zero sales instead of one.
Given the poll in another thread shows 35% of the members that voted will be purchasing either the A7c or A7cr…I’m not sure Sony will miss your potential sale. 😊
swldstn wrote
jaygould wrote
gunmetal wrote
chiron wrote
I haven't heard anyone propose the A7Cxx series for professional use, so this conversation about card slots seems very misplaced.But while we are on the subject of card slots, I believe that Lecias, through the M10-R, have had only one card slot and no one seems to think that is a reason not to buy them or to value them as useful and fine cameras. I don't remember it even being discussed.
Maybe I just underestimate the number of photographers doing technical HSS shooting with strobes and super fast glass on an entry level body. The R isn't entry level and at that price point Sony probably could have afforded to put the more expensive shutter in (although the R is a full $900 cheaper than the 5!!!) but the ii will be Sony's cheapest FF camera that isn't at least 5 years old. I think people who are frustrated about the cheaper shutter mechanism might be missing the target audience for this camera. That being said, I reserve the right to be wrong Earlier quote
I bought the A7RV. I can now buy it for much less and the only thing I have to compromise is size and weight. We all have to decide what is important to us.Given the poll in another thread shows 35% of the members that voted will be purchasing either the A7c or A7cr…I’m not sure Sony will miss your potential sale. 😊
Sep 04, 2023 at 08:09 PM
p.7 #12Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
catacore wrote:
So NO, they are not differentiating their cameras for market segments, at least not in my opinion. Everything will end-up, sooner than latter, as "hybrid". Just because this is the simplest way for Sony, I guess.
I think the market reality is that in todays market a stills only camera would be considered dead on arrival and would sell poorly. The stills only market I think is much smaller with reduced volumes that may not justify the development investment.
I’m a still only shooter but I still evaluate the hybrid potential of a new camera to help protect its resale value. That is what has me struggling between the A7C II and the A7CR. The C II I think is a better hybrid but the CR is aimed at still shooters that may have deeper pockets. We will see.
jwpstl wrote
they simply made a different style of camera for a certain segment of the market.I think the market reality is that in todays market a stills only camera would be considered dead on arrival and would sell poorly. The stills only market I think is much smaller with reduced volumes that may not justify the development investment.
I’m a still only shooter but I still evaluate the hybrid potential of a new camera to help protect its resale value. That is what has me struggling between the A7C II and the A7CR. The C II I think is a better hybrid but the CR is aimed at still shooters that may have deeper pockets. We will see.
Sep 04, 2023 at 08:18 PM
p.7 #13Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
tsdevine wrote:
So you're not interested in any full frame cameras at the moment?
The a7R V is sort of "in between" the size of your 6D and R10.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#889,898,380,ha,f
Well I also have an R6 (Canon) and Z5 (Nikon) today as well.
No, since these cameras are good enough (especially the Canon), I don't see a reason to switch systems for an A7RV. If I could save a lot of size and weight however, that would be a different thing. Unfortunately the A7Cr couldn't replace my R6 since it can't shoot with flash and the bokeh won't look as good. If it did have a mechanical shutter, I would sell all of my Canon and Nikon gear and be happy with the A7Cr for many years to come.
So you're not interested in any full frame cameras at the moment?
The a7R V is sort of "in between" the size of your 6D and R10.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#889,898,380,ha,f
Well I also have an R6 (Canon) and Z5 (Nikon) today as well.
No, since these cameras are good enough (especially the Canon), I don't see a reason to switch systems for an A7RV. If I could save a lot of size and weight however, that would be a different thing. Unfortunately the A7Cr couldn't replace my R6 since it can't shoot with flash and the bokeh won't look as good. If it did have a mechanical shutter, I would sell all of my Canon and Nikon gear and be happy with the A7Cr for many years to come.
Sep 04, 2023 at 08:42 PM
p.7 #14Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
Well, maybe the next iteration, if there is one. I still think it's pretty amazing what Sony could cram into a camera the size of the a7CR. They may not have gotten your sale, but the more $$ a camera is, the smaller the market is....at least that would be the conventional wisdom. So if they added everything and the kitchen sink, and could somehow put that in a package the size of the a7CR, it may have been significantly more $$. You may have been willing to pay that extra $$, but for every one of you, there might have been 2 people that shied away due to how expensive it became.
No product can make 100% of the masses happy. I guess we'll see over time if Canon and Nikon want to compete in this space.
jaygould wrote:
tsdevine wrote
So you're not interested in any full frame cameras at the moment?The a7R V is sort of "in between" the size of your 6D and R10.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#889,898,380,ha,f
No, since these cameras are good enough (especially the Canon), I don't see a reason to switch systems for an A7RV. If I could save a lot of size and weight however, that would be a different thing. Unfortunately the A7Cr couldn't replace my R6 since it can't shoot with flash and the bokeh won't look as good. If it did have a mechanical shutter, I would sell all of my Canon and Nikon gear and be happy with the A7Cr for many years to come.
Sep 04, 2023 at 08:49 PM
p.7 #15Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
chez wrote:
But while we are on the subject of card slots, I believe that Lecias, through the M10-R, have had only one card slot and no one seems to think that is a reason not to buy them or to value them as useful and fine cameras. I don't remember it even being discussed.I guess Maybe I just underestimate the number of photographers doing technical HSS shooting with strobes and super fast glass on an entry level body. The R isn't entry level and at that price point Sony probably could have afforded to put the more expensive shutter in (although the R is a full $900 cheaper than the 5!!!) but the ii will be Sony's cheapest FF camera that isn't at least 5 years old. I think people who are frustrated about the cheaper shutter mechanism might be missing the target audience for this camera. That being said, I reserve the right to be wrong Not everything is about the money. Some people just want a small camera that can do it all. Would save me from owning multiple camera bodies. Unfortunately this camera isn't it because it doesn't have a mechanical shutter.The corporate investors and management might think differently than you. At the end Sony’s responsibility is to its investors and not its customers or the market or the photography community. Sony has done what they think is the best tradeoff to meet their responsibilities. No camera is perfect. They made tradeoffs to price the A7CR $1000 USD below the A7RV. If I want all the features, like I do, I bought the A7RV. I can now buy it for much less and the only thing I have to compromise is size and weight. We all have to decide what is important to us.I mean not everything is about the money for the customer. Many are happy to pay more for more features.
I am not interested in a large camera. I don't care about what features it has. I am also not interested in a small camera, if it lacks the basic features that has been in digital cameras for decades (like a mechanical shutter). So Sony's strategy didn't work on me. Now they got zero sales instead of one.Given the poll in another thread shows 35% of the members that voted will be purchasing either the A7c or A7cr…I’m not sure Sony will miss your potential sale. 😊
And 65% of the people who voted in that thread decided NOT to buy the camera. Many who commented said it was because of missing features that they felt SHOULD have been in the cameras at the prices being charged. In my case I voted no because of the lack of the mechanical shutter.
I want my 2nd smaller body to have a mechanical shutter. I shoot portraits with fast primes wide open in sunny conditions (I live in the desert) and long ago found out the EFCS in my A7RIV degraded the look. I have shot only with the mechanical shutter since when doing portraits, as it works best for me. Also at times I use high power OCF and I need the fastest flash sync shutter speed I can get. The A6700 is 1/200 vs 1/160 for the A7C new bodies.
Doesn’t mean that for 95% of others the lack of a mechanical shutter will be an issue, but for me it is, and people here need to quit dismissing it as a real issue just because it doesn't affect them.
So I decided to buy an A6700 instead. How is it that a brand new 2023 $1,400 body can have a full mechanical shutter but a $3,000 high res 2023 camera cannot? Doesn't make business sense to me and Sony got $1,600 from me less because of this business decision.
jaygould wrote
swldstn wrote
jaygould wrote
gunmetal wrote
chiron wrote
I haven't heard anyone propose the A7Cxx series for professional use, so this conversation about card slots seems very misplaced.But while we are on the subject of card slots, I believe that Lecias, through the M10-R, have had only one card slot and no one seems to think that is a reason not to buy them or to value them as useful and fine cameras. I don't remember it even being discussed.
Maybe I just underestimate the number of photographers doing technical HSS shooting with strobes and super fast glass on an entry level body. The R isn't entry level and at that price point Sony probably could have afforded to put the more expensive shutter in (although the R is a full $900 cheaper than the 5!!!) but the ii will be Sony's cheapest FF camera that isn't at least 5 years old. I think people who are frustrated about the cheaper shutter mechanism might be missing the target audience for this camera. That being said, I reserve the right to be wrong Earlier quote
I bought the A7RV. I can now buy it for much less and the only thing I have to compromise is size and weight. We all have to decide what is important to us.And 65% of the people who voted in that thread decided NOT to buy the camera. Many who commented said it was because of missing features that they felt SHOULD have been in the cameras at the prices being charged. In my case I voted no because of the lack of the mechanical shutter.
I want my 2nd smaller body to have a mechanical shutter. I shoot portraits with fast primes wide open in sunny conditions (I live in the desert) and long ago found out the EFCS in my A7RIV degraded the look. I have shot only with the mechanical shutter since when doing portraits, as it works best for me. Also at times I use high power OCF and I need the fastest flash sync shutter speed I can get. The A6700 is 1/200 vs 1/160 for the A7C new bodies.
Doesn’t mean that for 95% of others the lack of a mechanical shutter will be an issue, but for me it is, and people here need to quit dismissing it as a real issue just because it doesn't affect them.
So I decided to buy an A6700 instead. How is it that a brand new 2023 $1,400 body can have a full mechanical shutter but a $3,000 high res 2023 camera cannot? Doesn't make business sense to me and Sony got $1,600 from me less because of this business decision.
Sep 04, 2023 at 09:35 PM
p.7 #16Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
SpecFoto wrote:
Maybe I just underestimate the number of photographers doing technical HSS shooting with strobes and super fast glass on an entry level body. The R isn't entry level and at that price point Sony probably could have afforded to put the more expensive shutter in (although the R is a full $900 cheaper than the 5!!!) but the ii will be Sony's cheapest FF camera that isn't at least 5 years old. I think people who are frustrated about the cheaper shutter mechanism might be missing the target audience for this camera. That being said, I reserve the right to be wrong Not everything is about the money. Some people just want a small camera that can do it all. Would save me from owning multiple camera bodies. Unfortunately this camera isn't it because it doesn't have a mechanical shutter.The corporate investors and management might think differently than you. At the end Sony’s responsibility is to its investors and not its customers or the market or the photography community. Sony has done what they think is the best tradeoff to meet their responsibilities. No camera is perfect. They made tradeoffs to price the A7CR $1000 USD below the A7RV. If I want all the features, like I do, I bought the A7RV. I can now buy it for much less and the only thing I have to compromise is size and weight. We all have to decide what is important to us.I mean not everything is about the money for the customer. Many are happy to pay more for more features.
I am not interested in a large camera. I don't care about what features it has. I am also not interested in a small camera, if it lacks the basic features that has been in digital cameras for decades (like a mechanical shutter). So Sony's strategy didn't work on me. Now they got zero sales instead of one.Given the poll in another thread shows 35% of the members that voted will be purchasing either the A7c or A7cr…I’m not sure Sony will miss your potential sale. 😊And 65% of the people who voted in that thread decided NOT to buy the camera. Many who commented said it was because of missing features that they felt SHOULD have been in the cameras at the prices being charged. In my case I voted no because of the lack of the mechanical shutter.
In my case I want my 2nd smaller body to have a mechanical shutter. I shoot portraits with fast primes wide open in sunny conditions (I live in the desert) and long ago found out the EFCS in my A7RIV degraded the look. I have shot only...Show more →
Fair. But now you're going to shoot fast primes on APSC? Seems like you could shoot equivalent full frame (f2, f2.8) and never have an issue with unsightly bokeh with the efcs. No?
chez wrote
jaygould wrote
swldstn wrote
jaygould wrote
gunmetal wrote
I guess Maybe I just underestimate the number of photographers doing technical HSS shooting with strobes and super fast glass on an entry level body. The R isn't entry level and at that price point Sony probably could have afforded to put the more expensive shutter in (although the R is a full $900 cheaper than the 5!!!) but the ii will be Sony's cheapest FF camera that isn't at least 5 years old. I think people who are frustrated about the cheaper shutter mechanism might be missing the target audience for this camera. That being said, I reserve the right to be wrong Earlier quote
I bought the A7RV. I can now buy it for much less and the only thing I have to compromise is size and weight. We all have to decide what is important to us.In my case I want my 2nd smaller body to have a mechanical shutter. I shoot portraits with fast primes wide open in sunny conditions (I live in the desert) and long ago found out the EFCS in my A7RIV degraded the look. I have shot only...Show more →
Fair. But now you're going to shoot fast primes on APSC? Seems like you could shoot equivalent full frame (f2, f2.8) and never have an issue with unsightly bokeh with the efcs. No?
Sep 04, 2023 at 09:57 PM
p.7 #17Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
I think a big part of this discussion (naysayers vs happy ones) is the price the CR is offered at, and here we have big difference depending of which side of the big pond we are referring to. EUR 3600 is about USD 3800, I guess.
Anyone from the US is still interested in buying the A7CR at 3.8K?
Anyone from the US is still interested in buying the A7CR at 3.8K?
Sep 04, 2023 at 10:07 PM
p.7 #18Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
gunmetal wrote:
The corporate investors and management might think differently than you. At the end Sony’s responsibility is to its investors and not its customers or the market or the photography community. Sony has done what they think is the best tradeoff to meet their responsibilities. No camera is perfect. They made tradeoffs to price the A7CR $1000 USD below the A7RV. If I want all the features, like I do, I bought the A7RV. I can now buy it for much less and the only thing I have to compromise is size and weight. We all have to decide what is important to us.I mean not everything is about the money for the customer. Many are happy to pay more for more features.
I am not interested in a large camera. I don't care about what features it has. I am also not interested in a small camera, if it lacks the basic features that has been in digital cameras for decades (like a mechanical shutter). So Sony's strategy didn't work on me. Now they got zero sales instead of one.Given the poll in another thread shows 35% of the members that voted will be purchasing either the A7c or A7cr…I’m not sure Sony will miss your potential sale. 😊And 65% of the people who voted in that thread decided NOT to buy the camera. Many who commented said it was because of missing features that they felt SHOULD have been in the cameras at the prices being charged. In my case I voted no because of the lack of the mechanical shutter.
In my case I want my 2nd smaller body to have a mechanical shutter. I shoot portraits with fast primes wide open in sunny conditions (I live in the desert) and long ago found out the EFCS in my A7RIV degraded the look. I have shot only with the mechanical shutter since when doing portraits, as it works best for me. Also at times I use high power OCF and I need the fastest flash sync shutter speed I can get. The A6700 is 1/200 vs 1/160 for the A7C new bodies.
Doesn’t mean that for 95% of others the lack of a mechanical shutter will be an issue, but for me it is, and people here need to quit dismissing it as a real issue just because it doesn't affect them.
So I decided to buy an A6700 instead. How is it that a brand new 2023 $1,400 body can have a full mechanical shutter but a $3,000 high res 2023 camera cannot? Doesn't make business sense to me and Sony got $1,600 less because of this business decision.Fair. But now you're going to shoot fast primes on APSC? Seems like you could shoot equivalent full frame (f2, f2.8) and never have an issue with unsightly bokeh with the efcs. No?
Been shooting my A7RIV in APS-C mode for a long time for portraits, love using my Batis 135mm at 202mm.
At ISO 100 an f 2 lens wide open will need 1/4,000ss on a “sunny 16” day, FF or APS-C it doesn’t matter. f2.8 needs 1/2,000 and a f1.4 lens, like my 35 & 50 GM, needs 1/8,000. The issue starts to appear at 1/1,000ss, so it remains- The slightly added DOF is not going to change the distant (bad) bokeh I feel
SpecFoto wrote
chez wrote
jaygould wrote
swldstn wrote
jaygould wrote
Not everything is about the money. Some people just want a small camera that can do it all. Would save me from owning multiple camera bodies. Unfortunately this camera isn't it because it doesn't have a mechanical shutter.Earlier quote
I bought the A7RV. I can now buy it for much less and the only thing I have to compromise is size and weight. We all have to decide what is important to us.In my case I want my 2nd smaller body to have a mechanical shutter. I shoot portraits with fast primes wide open in sunny conditions (I live in the desert) and long ago found out the EFCS in my A7RIV degraded the look. I have shot only with the mechanical shutter since when doing portraits, as it works best for me. Also at times I use high power OCF and I need the fastest flash sync shutter speed I can get. The A6700 is 1/200 vs 1/160 for the A7C new bodies.
Doesn’t mean that for 95% of others the lack of a mechanical shutter will be an issue, but for me it is, and people here need to quit dismissing it as a real issue just because it doesn't affect them.
So I decided to buy an A6700 instead. How is it that a brand new 2023 $1,400 body can have a full mechanical shutter but a $3,000 high res 2023 camera cannot? Doesn't make business sense to me and Sony got $1,600 less because of this business decision.
Been shooting my A7RIV in APS-C mode for a long time for portraits, love using my Batis 135mm at 202mm.
At ISO 100 an f 2 lens wide open will need 1/4,000ss on a “sunny 16” day, FF or APS-C it doesn’t matter. f2.8 needs 1/2,000 and a f1.4 lens, like my 35 & 50 GM, needs 1/8,000. The issue starts to appear at 1/1,000ss, so it remains- The slightly added DOF is not going to change the distant (bad) bokeh I feel
Sep 05, 2023 at 01:32 AM
p.7 #19Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
catacore wrote:
I think a big part of this discussion (naysayers vs happy ones) is the price the CR is offered at, and here we have big difference depending of which side of the big pond we are referring to. EUR 3600 is about USD 3800, I guess.
Anyone from the US is still interested in buying the A7CR at 3.8K?
How much is the A7RV in EUR? Since I spent the money on that when it first came out? It has all the features I wanted included the best EVF, full flexible rear LCD, two card slots both with CFexpess support, and 8 stop IBIS.
Secondary question for everyone on single card support. For Canon, which I also own and other vendors with mixed card slots of CFexpress and SD can you ever justify its slower support if shooting with redundancy since you don’t get the faster write speeds? I never could. Tried the Z9 and the dual CFexpress Type B cards were great but they had other issues that were difficult for me to deal with, weight.
I think a big part of this discussion (naysayers vs happy ones) is the price the CR is offered at, and here we have big difference depending of which side of the big pond we are referring to. EUR 3600 is about USD 3800, I guess.
Anyone from the US is still interested in buying the A7CR at 3.8K?
How much is the A7RV in EUR? Since I spent the money on that when it first came out? It has all the features I wanted included the best EVF, full flexible rear LCD, two card slots both with CFexpess support, and 8 stop IBIS.
Secondary question for everyone on single card support. For Canon, which I also own and other vendors with mixed card slots of CFexpress and SD can you ever justify its slower support if shooting with redundancy since you don’t get the faster write speeds? I never could. Tried the Z9 and the dual CFexpress Type B cards were great but they had other issues that were difficult for me to deal with, weight.
Sep 05, 2023 at 05:26 AM
p.7 #20Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
jaygould wrote:
The a7R V is sort of "in between" the size of your 6D and R10.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#889,898,380,ha,fWell I also have an R6 (Canon) and Z5 (Nikon) today as well.
No, since these cameras are good enough (especially the Canon), I don't see a reason to switch systems for an A7RV. If I could save a lot of size and weight however, that would be a different thing. Unfortunately the A7Cr couldn't replace my R6 since it can't shoot with flash and the bokeh won't look as good. If it did have a mechanical shutter, I would sell all of my Canon and Nikon gear and be happy with the A7Cr for many years to come.
The A7RV has a full mechanical shutter. Also, it appears you happy shooting with 24 Mpixels of the EOS R6, which is a fine camera.
tsdevine wrote
So you're not interested in any full frame cameras at the moment?The a7R V is sort of "in between" the size of your 6D and R10.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#889,898,380,ha,f
No, since these cameras are good enough (especially the Canon), I don't see a reason to switch systems for an A7RV. If I could save a lot of size and weight however, that would be a different thing. Unfortunately the A7Cr couldn't replace my R6 since it can't shoot with flash and the bokeh won't look as good. If it did have a mechanical shutter, I would sell all of my Canon and Nikon gear and be happy with the A7Cr for many years to come.
The A7RV has a full mechanical shutter. Also, it appears you happy shooting with 24 Mpixels of the EOS R6, which is a fine camera.
Sep 05, 2023 at 05:35 AM