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Archive 2023Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
p.2 #1Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
What an odd position to take
If the led lights in a venue are flickering at some random frequency such that electronic shutter is not an option, and all you have is EFCS on a slow sensor then you are kinda fucked 😂 clients generally don’t want banding in their images and don’t care what the bokeh looks like
Assuming the lighting is fine (no banding) but the subject is moving really quickly and you don’t have a sensor with fast readout (stacked sensor in the Sony world) or mechanical shutter you WILL get rolling shutter and the severity would depend on the sensor readout speed and how fast the subject is moving.
If the lighting is fine (no banding) and the subject is not moving quickly then sure the A7C can toggle between EFCS and electronic shutters to get whatever look the photographer wants.
The shutter is what Sony decided to use to differentiate the A7C series against the A7 series, because it’s a pretty big deal. I doubt the BOM for a shutter is very high, even those old $20 disposable kodaks had shutters 😂
Imo Sony should have installed a cheap but full mechanical shutter on the A7C, and limited it to 1 fps or something. LED lights these days can flicker at any random frequency, it’s not reasonable (to me) for a $2000 camera to have unfixable banding issues
I suppose one day we will see a Global Shutter A9C, that’s the true solution imo. Sony can delete the shutter entirely and make the camera even smaller
Edited on Aug 31, 2023 at 01:24 PM · View previous versions
If the led lights in a venue are flickering at some random frequency such that electronic shutter is not an option, and all you have is EFCS on a slow sensor then you are kinda fucked 😂 clients generally don’t want banding in their images and don’t care what the bokeh looks like
Assuming the lighting is fine (no banding) but the subject is moving really quickly and you don’t have a sensor with fast readout (stacked sensor in the Sony world) or mechanical shutter you WILL get rolling shutter and the severity would depend on the sensor readout speed and how fast the subject is moving.
If the lighting is fine (no banding) and the subject is not moving quickly then sure the A7C can toggle between EFCS and electronic shutters to get whatever look the photographer wants.
The shutter is what Sony decided to use to differentiate the A7C series against the A7 series, because it’s a pretty big deal. I doubt the BOM for a shutter is very high, even those old $20 disposable kodaks had shutters 😂
Imo Sony should have installed a cheap but full mechanical shutter on the A7C, and limited it to 1 fps or something. LED lights these days can flicker at any random frequency, it’s not reasonable (to me) for a $2000 camera to have unfixable banding issues
I suppose one day we will see a Global Shutter A9C, that’s the true solution imo. Sony can delete the shutter entirely and make the camera even smaller
Edited on Aug 31, 2023 at 01:24 PM · View previous versions
Aug 31, 2023 at 01:08 PM
p.2 #2Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
jeffbuzz wrote:
Is it a problem? You decide.
Seems like below 1/1000 will be impossible to tell (in real photos), and even 1/2000 would be very tough to tell. Any higher than that might stand out. Apart from sports (and neither of these variants are targeting sports), what applications would involve fast apertures and high shutter speeds? Do wedding photographers find themselves shooting over 1/2000? Then again if you're a wedding photographer you probably wouldn't be shooting with just one card slot.
Both cameras still seem like fantastic travel and landscape cameras to me. But I'm open to the fact that I could be missing something.
Is it a problem? You decide.
Seems like below 1/1000 will be impossible to tell (in real photos), and even 1/2000 would be very tough to tell. Any higher than that might stand out. Apart from sports (and neither of these variants are targeting sports), what applications would involve fast apertures and high shutter speeds? Do wedding photographers find themselves shooting over 1/2000? Then again if you're a wedding photographer you probably wouldn't be shooting with just one card slot.
Both cameras still seem like fantastic travel and landscape cameras to me. But I'm open to the fact that I could be missing something.
Aug 31, 2023 at 01:14 PM
p.2 #3Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
jeffbuzz wrote:
Is it a problem? You decide.
You need to describe the shooting setup and identify the type of light source and its operating frequency for these examples to be meaningful.
Is it a problem? You decide.
You need to describe the shooting setup and identify the type of light source and its operating frequency for these examples to be meaningful.
Aug 31, 2023 at 01:14 PM
p.2 #4Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
molson wrote:
jeffbuzz wrote
Is it a problem? You decide.This is precisely the problem, the photographer usually has no control over a venue’s lighting setup.
Aug 31, 2023 at 01:19 PM
p.2 #5Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
FYI, I have an explanation how it happens that EFCS cuts off bokeh.
It is not caused by cheap or small shutter. It happens because electronic (1st curtain) and mechanical shutter (2nd curtain) are not at the same distance from lens (for full mechanic and full electronic the distance between curtains from the lens is the same so there is no issue).
https://jtra.cz/stuff/essays/bokeh/index.html#efcs
It is not caused by cheap or small shutter. It happens because electronic (1st curtain) and mechanical shutter (2nd curtain) are not at the same distance from lens (for full mechanic and full electronic the distance between curtains from the lens is the same so there is no issue).
https://jtra.cz/stuff/essays/bokeh/index.html#efcs
Aug 31, 2023 at 01:42 PM
p.2 #6Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
I think this video does a better job showcasing of what it can cause in certain situations:
It's enough of a problem that if I only had 1 camera I wouldn't get an A7c series since I shoot enough sports/pets/portraits. Even then the 1/160 flash sync, lack of joy stick, and single card also rule these cameras out, it's not just the EFCS only issue.
However the A7c series are secondary cameras that I'd be using my sigma 2.8 primes or small F4 zooms on(I ordered the A7Cr so I can get that excellent 70-350). They are not cameras I would bring with me on a shoot when using my GM primes or shooting sports. Any issues will be small or rare enough that I'm more than happy to live with the compromise.
That said, I haven't heard anyone address the purely electronic shutter and when distortion actually shows up. I get that swinging a golf club, hummingbird wings, or other fast moving objects will distort - but is this noticeable in every day snapshots of friends/people/street/portraits? The only situation I noticed exceeding 1/1000 with my 45mm 2.8 lens is extremely sunny days - but again when I'm using that lens nothing is moving very quickly so ES should alleviate any bokeh issues with that use case. I know ES can cause banding with LEDs but the only use case would be using it outdoors, indoor light wouldn't reach problematic shutter speeds and EFCS would be used without issue.
It's enough of a problem that if I only had 1 camera I wouldn't get an A7c series since I shoot enough sports/pets/portraits. Even then the 1/160 flash sync, lack of joy stick, and single card also rule these cameras out, it's not just the EFCS only issue.
However the A7c series are secondary cameras that I'd be using my sigma 2.8 primes or small F4 zooms on(I ordered the A7Cr so I can get that excellent 70-350). They are not cameras I would bring with me on a shoot when using my GM primes or shooting sports. Any issues will be small or rare enough that I'm more than happy to live with the compromise.
That said, I haven't heard anyone address the purely electronic shutter and when distortion actually shows up. I get that swinging a golf club, hummingbird wings, or other fast moving objects will distort - but is this noticeable in every day snapshots of friends/people/street/portraits? The only situation I noticed exceeding 1/1000 with my 45mm 2.8 lens is extremely sunny days - but again when I'm using that lens nothing is moving very quickly so ES should alleviate any bokeh issues with that use case. I know ES can cause banding with LEDs but the only use case would be using it outdoors, indoor light wouldn't reach problematic shutter speeds and EFCS would be used without issue.
Aug 31, 2023 at 01:51 PM
p.2 #7Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
chiron wrote:
Mark has probably the most informative videos on Sony gear, but he's also, and there's no other way to put it, a Sony shill. He never says anything negative about Sony, so it's easy to miss the downsides when you hear him talk in detail about the good stuff
.This video has zero to do with Sony. It is only about the advantages of EFCS and the lack of disadvantages. Nothing to do with Sony gear. You must not have watched the video.
I think it is discourteous and literally inaccurate to call him a shill. It is a misuse of the word. He is an outstanding photographer whose work is often used to illustrate optical quality, as for Ben-Q products, a great educator, and modest in person. When he reviews Sony products, he often offers qualifications and alternative products. I think he is talented, skilled, fair, and informative.One of the definitions of shill is:
and that's exactly the impression I get every time I watch his videos. I used that word because no other sony ambassador makes me feel this way... I didn't really bring up anything else about him in my comment (background, skill, achievements, ... things you mention). I actually watched the video a long time ago, but him saying that he prefers EFCS bokeh kinda eclipsed anything else I might have remembered.
Regarding EFCS bokeh, if you prefer busy bokeh, then EFCS is actually an improvement for you . Just please keep in mind not everybody does. One of the reasons I moved from APS-C to FF is that I wanted "better" (quantity and quality) bokeh, so degrading it via EFCS is detrminental to that goal...
Yes, you're right - it doesn't affect every photo. The problem for me was that when it hits, it can really ruin an otherwise "bokehlicious" scene... I also used mostly electronic shutter on my previous A7III. With A1 I don't have that problem anymore 
.Actually, the only time I remember him mentioning something about a Sony feature in this video, it was to criticize that feature. He said the Sony menus made it difficult to quickly and easily turn EFCS on and off, which he considered a problem.
We can continue discussing Mark, but I'm not sure how this adds to the discussion about EFCS bokeh .
j4nu wrote
chiron wrote
j4nu wrote
Thanks, but I've seen the effect on my own photos and it made SY 35/1.4 look closer to CV 35/1.4 Classic...Mark has probably the most informative videos on Sony gear, but he's also, and there's no other way to put it, a Sony shill. He never says anything negative about Sony, so it's easy to miss the downsides when you hear him talk in detail about the good stuff
.I think it is discourteous and literally inaccurate to call him a shill. It is a misuse of the word. He is an outstanding photographer whose work is often used to illustrate optical quality, as for Ben-Q products, a great educator, and modest in person. When he reviews Sony products, he often offers qualifications and alternative products. I think he is talented, skilled, fair, and informative.
Earlier quote
a person who pretends to give an impartial endorsement of something in which they themselves have an interestRegarding EFCS bokeh, if you prefer busy bokeh, then EFCS is actually an improvement for you
. Just please keep in mind not everybody does. One of the reasons I moved from APS-C to FF is that I wanted "better" (quantity and quality) bokeh, so degrading it via EFCS is detrminental to that goal...AGeoJO wrote
I have noticed the effect, too but significantly more noticeable and I like less using the Sigma 105mm f/1.4 under contrasty background conditions. Otherwise, the effect is barely noticeable and for sure not “uglier” vs with the EFCS off. This applies mostly for my portrait usage using slight WA, like a 35mm, standard and short tele lenses, up to 135mm. Personally, I wouldn’t turn the EFCS to off on cameras that have that. BTW, I am using the electronic shutter almost exclusively on both Sony A1 and A7r V. So, not an issue with both anyway. .We can continue discussing Mark, but I'm not sure how this adds to the discussion about EFCS bokeh
.Aug 31, 2023 at 02:00 PM
p.2 #8Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
cxpics wrote:
I think this video does a better job showcasing of what it can cause in certain situations:
It's enough of a problem that if I only had 1 camera I wouldn't get an A7c series since I shoot enough sports/pets/portraits. Even then the 1/160 flash sync, lack of joy stick, and single card also rule these cameras out, it's not just the EFCS only issue.
However the A7c series are secondary cameras that I'd be using my sigma 2.8 primes or small F4 zooms on(I ordered the A7Cr so I can get that excellent 70-350). They are not cameras I would...Show more →
That’s exactly how I would use the A7cr, as a travel / documentary compact setup. I too find it hard to nail down what type of subject would be moving so fast that it would be affected by the slow readout.
The A7cr with a few compact primes would be an ideal travel setup.
I think this video does a better job showcasing of what it can cause in certain situations:
It's enough of a problem that if I only had 1 camera I wouldn't get an A7c series since I shoot enough sports/pets/portraits. Even then the 1/160 flash sync, lack of joy stick, and single card also rule these cameras out, it's not just the EFCS only issue.
However the A7c series are secondary cameras that I'd be using my sigma 2.8 primes or small F4 zooms on(I ordered the A7Cr so I can get that excellent 70-350). They are not cameras I would...Show more →
That’s exactly how I would use the A7cr, as a travel / documentary compact setup. I too find it hard to nail down what type of subject would be moving so fast that it would be affected by the slow readout.
The A7cr with a few compact primes would be an ideal travel setup.
Aug 31, 2023 at 02:14 PM
p.2 #9Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
aCuria wrote:
You need to describe the shooting setup and identify the type of light source and its operating frequency for these examples to be meaningful.This is precisely the problem, the photographer usually has no control over a venue’s lighting setup.
Then bring a different camera to shoot the venue. Right equipment for the job. Same reason many look at taking lighter gear with them on trips…many go for the 28-200 light zooms rather than the heavy Gmaster zooms…again right gear for the job.
molson wrote
jeffbuzz wrote
Is it a problem? You decide.Then bring a different camera to shoot the venue. Right equipment for the job. Same reason many look at taking lighter gear with them on trips…many go for the 28-200 light zooms rather than the heavy Gmaster zooms…again right gear for the job.
Aug 31, 2023 at 02:17 PM
p.2 #10Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
aCuria wrote:
You need to describe the shooting setup and identify the type of light source and its operating frequency for these examples to be meaningful.This is precisely the problem, the photographer usually has no control over a venue’s lighting setup.
Experienced photographers would probably just choose the best tool - or setting - for the job at hand.
molson wrote
jeffbuzz wrote
Is it a problem? You decide.Experienced photographers would probably just choose the best tool - or setting - for the job at hand.
Aug 31, 2023 at 02:30 PM
p.2 #11Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
chez wrote:
aCuria wrote
molson wrote
jeffbuzz wrote
Is it a problem? You decide.For personal / travel photography I would have no idea what the artificial lighting situation would be like either. Its a big part of their reason why I don’t own the A7C.
The A7C doesn’t make sense for an event photographer, and Sony made it that way on purpose imo. It’s a market segmentation thing
Aug 31, 2023 at 02:31 PM
p.2 #12Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
gunmetal wrote:
Apart from sports (and neither of these variants are targeting sports), what applications would involve fast apertures and high shutter speeds? Do wedding photographers find themselves shooting over 1/2000? Then again if you're a wedding photographer you probably wouldn't be shooting with just one card slot.
Portraits, or general use of a fast (like f/1.4 ) lens in good light to get a nice out of focus rendering.
Apart from sports (and neither of these variants are targeting sports), what applications would involve fast apertures and high shutter speeds? Do wedding photographers find themselves shooting over 1/2000? Then again if you're a wedding photographer you probably wouldn't be shooting with just one card slot.
Portraits, or general use of a fast (like f/1.4 ) lens in good light to get a nice out of focus rendering.
Aug 31, 2023 at 02:45 PM
p.2 #13Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
aCuria wrote:
You need to describe the shooting setup and identify the type of light source and its operating frequency for these examples to be meaningful.This is precisely the problem, the photographer usually has no control over a venue’s lighting setup.Then bring a different camera to shoot the venue. Right equipment for the job. Same reason many look at taking lighter gear with them on trips…many go for the 28-200 light zooms rather than the heavy Gmaster zooms…again right gear for the job.For personal / travel photography I would have no idea what the artificial lighting situation would be like either. Its a big part of their reason why I don’t own the A7C.
The A7C doesn’t make sense for an event photographer, and Sony made it that way on purpose imo. It’s a market segmentation thing
Right, for events I most likely would not bring the A7cr camera...I'd bring my A7R3 with larger faster lenses. Like I said before bring the right tool for the job.
chez wrote
aCuria wrote
molson wrote
jeffbuzz wrote
Is it a problem? You decide.The A7C doesn’t make sense for an event photographer, and Sony made it that way on purpose imo. It’s a market segmentation thing
Right, for events I most likely would not bring the A7cr camera...I'd bring my A7R3 with larger faster lenses. Like I said before bring the right tool for the job.
Aug 31, 2023 at 02:52 PM
p.2 #14Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
Fboss wrote:
Portraits, or general use of a fast (like f/1.4 ) lens in good light to get a nice out of focus rendering.
It's especially an issue with portraits with fast 35mm and shorter lenses: they need a larger aperture to create separation between the subject and the background.
Longer lenses have shallow enough DOF to begin with.
gunmetal wrote
Apart from sports (and neither of these variants are targeting sports), what applications would involve fast apertures and high shutter speeds? Do wedding photographers find themselves shooting over 1/2000? Then again if you're a wedding photographer you probably wouldn't be shooting with just one card slot.It's especially an issue with portraits with fast 35mm and shorter lenses: they need a larger aperture to create separation between the subject and the background.
Longer lenses have shallow enough DOF to begin with.
Aug 31, 2023 at 03:19 PM
p.2 #15Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
Sndr wrote:
Portraits, or general use of a fast (like f/1.4 ) lens in good light to get a nice out of focus rendering.It's especially an issue with portraits with fast 35mm and shorter lenses: they need a larger aperture to create separation between the subject and the background.
Longer lenses have shallow enough DOF to begin with.
I think for posed portraits, electronic (silent) shutter should be ok. It's the travel / family "portraits" that might be an issue, IMHO.
Fboss wrote
gunmetal wrote
Apart from sports (and neither of these variants are targeting sports), what applications would involve fast apertures and high shutter speeds? Do wedding photographers find themselves shooting over 1/2000? Then again if you're a wedding photographer you probably wouldn't be shooting with just one card slot.Longer lenses have shallow enough DOF to begin with.
I think for posed portraits, electronic (silent) shutter should be ok. It's the travel / family "portraits" that might be an issue, IMHO.
Aug 31, 2023 at 03:32 PM
p.2 #16Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
Sndr wrote:
Portraits, or general use of a fast (like f/1.4 ) lens in good light to get a nice out of focus rendering.It's especially an issue with portraits with fast 35mm and shorter lenses: they need a larger aperture to create separation between the subject and the background.
Longer lenses have shallow enough DOF to begin with.
From my understanding, indoor portraits won't get to high enough SS to be an issue. And outdoors you can use ES for portraits. So unless you're specifically shooting fast motion it shouldn't be an issue.
Can someone tell me if I'm wrong? Go out and shoot some snaps with ES with an A7RV or A7IV, is distortion ruining normal portrait/people/scene shots? I'd try it myself but I only have A9's.
Fboss wrote
gunmetal wrote
Apart from sports (and neither of these variants are targeting sports), what applications would involve fast apertures and high shutter speeds? Do wedding photographers find themselves shooting over 1/2000? Then again if you're a wedding photographer you probably wouldn't be shooting with just one card slot.Longer lenses have shallow enough DOF to begin with.
From my understanding, indoor portraits won't get to high enough SS to be an issue. And outdoors you can use ES for portraits. So unless you're specifically shooting fast motion it shouldn't be an issue.
Can someone tell me if I'm wrong? Go out and shoot some snaps with ES with an A7RV or A7IV, is distortion ruining normal portrait/people/scene shots? I'd try it myself but I only have A9's.
Aug 31, 2023 at 03:36 PM
p.2 #17Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
j4nu wrote:
Portraits, or general use of a fast (like f/1.4 ) lens in good light to get a nice out of focus rendering.It's especially an issue with portraits with fast 35mm and shorter lenses: they need a larger aperture to create separation between the subject and the background.
Longer lenses have shallow enough DOF to begin with.I think for posed portraits, electronic (silent) shutter should be ok. It's the travel / family "portraits" that might be an issue, IMHO.
Why do you think travel portrait or even family portraits being an issue with ES?
Sndr wrote
Fboss wrote
gunmetal wrote
Apart from sports (and neither of these variants are targeting sports), what applications would involve fast apertures and high shutter speeds? Do wedding photographers find themselves shooting over 1/2000? Then again if you're a wedding photographer you probably wouldn't be shooting with just one card slot.Longer lenses have shallow enough DOF to begin with.
Why do you think travel portrait or even family portraits being an issue with ES?
Aug 31, 2023 at 03:41 PM
p.2 #18Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
cxpics wrote:
Portraits, or general use of a fast (like f/1.4 ) lens in good light to get a nice out of focus rendering.It's especially an issue with portraits with fast 35mm and shorter lenses: they need a larger aperture to create separation between the subject and the background.
Longer lenses have shallow enough DOF to begin with.From my understanding, indoor portraits won't get to high enough SS to be an issue. And outdoors you can use ES for portraits. So unless you're specifically shooting fast motion it shouldn't be an issue.
Can someone tell me if I'm wrong? Go out and shoot some snaps with ES with an A7RV or A7IV, is distortion ruining normal portrait/people/scene shots? I'd try it myself but I only have A9's.
I’ve been shooting birds ( not bif ) like quail running around or pheasant using ES on my A7R3 without any I’ll effects. I’ve shot a concert ( high school play ) using ES again with no notable affects.
Sndr wrote
Fboss wrote
gunmetal wrote
Apart from sports (and neither of these variants are targeting sports), what applications would involve fast apertures and high shutter speeds? Do wedding photographers find themselves shooting over 1/2000? Then again if you're a wedding photographer you probably wouldn't be shooting with just one card slot.Longer lenses have shallow enough DOF to begin with.
Can someone tell me if I'm wrong? Go out and shoot some snaps with ES with an A7RV or A7IV, is distortion ruining normal portrait/people/scene shots? I'd try it myself but I only have A9's.
I’ve been shooting birds ( not bif ) like quail running around or pheasant using ES on my A7R3 without any I’ll effects. I’ve shot a concert ( high school play ) using ES again with no notable affects.
Aug 31, 2023 at 03:48 PM
p.2 #19Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
chez wrote:
Portraits, or general use of a fast (like f/1.4 ) lens in good light to get a nice out of focus rendering.It's especially an issue with portraits with fast 35mm and shorter lenses: they need a larger aperture to create separation between the subject and the background.
Longer lenses have shallow enough DOF to begin with.I think for posed portraits, electronic (silent) shutter should be ok. It's the travel / family "portraits" that might be an issue, IMHO.Why do you think travel portrait or even family portraits being an issue with ES?
Because I can't be sure my subjects won't move suddenly...
j4nu wrote
Sndr wrote
Fboss wrote
gunmetal wrote
Apart from sports (and neither of these variants are targeting sports), what applications would involve fast apertures and high shutter speeds? Do wedding photographers find themselves shooting over 1/2000? Then again if you're a wedding photographer you probably wouldn't be shooting with just one card slot.Longer lenses have shallow enough DOF to begin with.
Because I can't be sure my subjects won't move suddenly...
Aug 31, 2023 at 03:56 PM
p.2 #20Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
chiron wrote:
Yes, I know you can get this effect. Please show me a real photograph taken by you where it is a problem.
My gallery over the years.
Www.Keehian.com
There is one photo inside that triggered my efcs investigations. Since then, I turned efcs off…. Or I noticed the cut bokeh when I forget to turn it off and don’t select it as keeper.
Edited on Aug 31, 2023 at 04:26 PM · View previous versions
jeffbuzz wrote
Is it a problem? You decide.My gallery over the years.
Www.Keehian.com
There is one photo inside that triggered my efcs investigations. Since then, I turned efcs off…. Or I noticed the cut bokeh when I forget to turn it off and don’t select it as keeper.
Edited on Aug 31, 2023 at 04:26 PM · View previous versions
Aug 31, 2023 at 04:20 PM