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Archive 2023Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
p.3 #1Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
If u can’t find it, it’s in the Russian gallery.
I don’t agree u see it rarely. U see it all the time if it’s 1/8000. The cut bokeh is physics so I don’t understand why galer don’t see it…. That is my point. Galer said something that to me is factually wrong.
https://www.keehian.com/russia2018/images/russia_066.jpg
I don’t agree u see it rarely. U see it all the time if it’s 1/8000. The cut bokeh is physics so I don’t understand why galer don’t see it…. That is my point. Galer said something that to me is factually wrong.
https://www.keehian.com/russia2018/images/russia_066.jpg
Aug 31, 2023 at 04:22 PM
p.3 #2Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
j4nu wrote:
Portraits, or general use of a fast (like f/1.4 ) lens in good light to get a nice out of focus rendering.It's especially an issue with portraits with fast 35mm and shorter lenses: they need a larger aperture to create separation between the subject and the background.
Longer lenses have shallow enough DOF to begin with.I think for posed portraits, electronic (silent) shutter should be ok. It's the travel / family "portraits" that might be an issue, IMHO.Why do you think travel portrait or even family portraits being an issue with ES?Because I can't be sure my subjects won't move suddenly...
What type of subject are we talking about here. I shot 20 years of travel photography without seeing these sudden subject movements…at least not ones that would cause an issue with ES on the A7R3.
Maybe post an example of a ruined portrait caused by movement shot using ES.
chez wrote
j4nu wrote
Sndr wrote
Fboss wrote
gunmetal wrote
Apart from sports (and neither of these variants are targeting sports), what applications would involve fast apertures and high shutter speeds? Do wedding photographers find themselves shooting over 1/2000? Then again if you're a wedding photographer you probably wouldn't be shooting with just one card slot.Longer lenses have shallow enough DOF to begin with.
What type of subject are we talking about here. I shot 20 years of travel photography without seeing these sudden subject movements…at least not ones that would cause an issue with ES on the A7R3.
Maybe post an example of a ruined portrait caused by movement shot using ES.
Aug 31, 2023 at 04:28 PM
p.3 #3Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
molson wrote:
You need to describe the shooting setup and identify the type of light source and its operating frequency for these examples to be meaningful.
It's a simple out of focus highlight example. LED bulb ~ 1 meter away with focus at infinity. Took me all of 5 minutes.
jeffbuzz wrote
Is it a problem? You decide.It's a simple out of focus highlight example. LED bulb ~ 1 meter away with focus at infinity. Took me all of 5 minutes.
Aug 31, 2023 at 04:30 PM
p.3 #4Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
wind30 wrote:
If u can’t find it, it’s in the Russian gallery.
I don’t agree u see it rarely. U see it all the time if it’s 1/8000. The cut bokeh is physics so I don’t understand why galer don’t see it…. That is my point. Galer said something that to me is factually wrong.
https://www.keehian.com/russia2018/images/russia_066.jpg
You didn’t see the video, did you
? He clearly mentioned that he saw the effect of some city skyline at 1/8000 sec. He used a Nikon MF lens for that particular shot.
If u can’t find it, it’s in the Russian gallery.
I don’t agree u see it rarely. U see it all the time if it’s 1/8000. The cut bokeh is physics so I don’t understand why galer don’t see it…. That is my point. Galer said something that to me is factually wrong.
https://www.keehian.com/russia2018/images/russia_066.jpg
You didn’t see the video, did you
? He clearly mentioned that he saw the effect of some city skyline at 1/8000 sec. He used a Nikon MF lens for that particular shot.Aug 31, 2023 at 04:30 PM
p.3 #5Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
gunmetal wrote:
Seems like below 1/1000 will be impossible to tell (in real photos), and even 1/2000 would be very tough to tell. Any higher than that might stand out. Apart from sports (and neither of these variants are targeting sports), what applications would involve fast apertures and high shutter speeds? Do wedding photographers find themselves shooting over 1/2000? Then again if you're a wedding photographer you probably wouldn't be shooting with just one card slot.
Both cameras still seem like fantastic travel and landscape cameras to me. But I'm open to the fact that I could be missing something.
HSS (High Speed Sync) with large aperture lenses. Rather common use case and a feature that Sony specifically touts.
jeffbuzz wrote
Is it a problem? You decide.Both cameras still seem like fantastic travel and landscape cameras to me. But I'm open to the fact that I could be missing something.
HSS (High Speed Sync) with large aperture lenses. Rather common use case and a feature that Sony specifically touts.
Aug 31, 2023 at 04:32 PM
p.3 #6Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
chiron wrote:
Yes, I know you can get this effect. Please show me a real photograph taken by you where it is a problem.
I avoid EFCS so I don't have to worry about it.
jeffbuzz wrote
Is it a problem? You decide.I avoid EFCS so I don't have to worry about it.
Aug 31, 2023 at 04:35 PM
p.3 #7Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
AGeoJO wrote:
I don’t agree u see it rarely. U see it all the time if it’s 1/8000. The cut bokeh is physics so I don’t understand why galer don’t see it…. That is my point. Galer said something that to me is factually wrong.
https://www.keehian.com/russia2018/images/russia_066.jpgYou didn’t see the video, did you ? He clearly mentioned that he saw the effect of some city skyline at 1/8000 sec. He used a Nikon MF lens for that particular shot.
I did not watch the video again, I watched it years ago.
Context, I meant why galer don’t see it all the time… with the right conditions. It is not something that happens once in a while by luck. If u shoot 1/8000 with efcs, it will be there. No questions.
Because galer is so popular, I thought that video is pretty misleading. I mean who can objectively say semi circle bokeh is better
?
Edited on Aug 31, 2023 at 04:42 PM · View previous versions
wind30 wrote
If u can’t find it, it’s in the Russian gallery.I don’t agree u see it rarely. U see it all the time if it’s 1/8000. The cut bokeh is physics so I don’t understand why galer don’t see it…. That is my point. Galer said something that to me is factually wrong.
https://www.keehian.com/russia2018/images/russia_066.jpg
? He clearly mentioned that he saw the effect of some city skyline at 1/8000 sec. He used a Nikon MF lens for that particular shot.I did not watch the video again, I watched it years ago.
Context, I meant why galer don’t see it all the time… with the right conditions. It is not something that happens once in a while by luck. If u shoot 1/8000 with efcs, it will be there. No questions.
Because galer is so popular, I thought that video is pretty misleading. I mean who can objectively say semi circle bokeh is better
?Edited on Aug 31, 2023 at 04:42 PM · View previous versions
Aug 31, 2023 at 04:37 PM
p.3 #8Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
chez wrote:
It's especially an issue with portraits with fast 35mm and shorter lenses: they need a larger aperture to create separation between the subject and the background.
Longer lenses have shallow enough DOF to begin with.I think for posed portraits, electronic (silent) shutter should be ok. It's the travel / family "portraits" that might be an issue, IMHO.Why do you think travel portrait or even family portraits being an issue with ES?Because I can't be sure my subjects won't move suddenly...What type of subject are we talking about here. I shot 20 years of travel photography without seeing these sudden subject movements…at least not ones that would cause an issue with ES on the A7R3.
Maybe post an example of a ruined portrait caused by movement shot using ES.
My kids mostly, I was using A7III then and from time to time (not too often really) I've run into distorted limbs, head, etc. I think A7RV / A7Cr has 2x slower readout so the issue might be more frequent...
j4nu wrote
chez wrote
j4nu wrote
Sndr wrote
Fboss wrote
Portraits, or general use of a fast (like f/1.4 ) lens in good light to get a nice out of focus rendering.Longer lenses have shallow enough DOF to begin with.
Maybe post an example of a ruined portrait caused by movement shot using ES.
My kids mostly, I was using A7III then and from time to time (not too often really) I've run into distorted limbs, head, etc. I think A7RV / A7Cr has 2x slower readout so the issue might be more frequent...
Aug 31, 2023 at 04:39 PM
p.3 #9Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
wind30 wrote:
I don’t agree u see it rarely. U see it all the time if it’s 1/8000. The cut bokeh is physics so I don’t understand why galer don’t see it…. That is my point. Galer said something that to me is factually wrong.
https://www.keehian.com/russia2018/images/russia_066.jpgYou didn’t see the video, did you ? He clearly mentioned that he saw the effect of some city skyline at 1/8000 sec. He used a Nikon MF lens for that particular shot.I did not watch the video again, I watched it years ago.
Context, I meant why galer don’t see it all the time… with the right conditions. It is not something that happens once in a while by luck. If u shoot 1/8000 with efcs, it will be there. No questions.
He didn’t say that he didn’t see it nor that it wasn’t there, like you claimed here:
wind30 wrote:
The cut bokeh is physics so I don’t understand why galer don’t see it…. That is my point. Galer said something that to me is factually wrong.
Again, he clearly said that at 1/8000 secs the effect was there.
AGeoJO wrote
wind30 wrote
If u can’t find it, it’s in the Russian gallery.I don’t agree u see it rarely. U see it all the time if it’s 1/8000. The cut bokeh is physics so I don’t understand why galer don’t see it…. That is my point. Galer said something that to me is factually wrong.
https://www.keehian.com/russia2018/images/russia_066.jpg
? He clearly mentioned that he saw the effect of some city skyline at 1/8000 sec. He used a Nikon MF lens for that particular shot.Context, I meant why galer don’t see it all the time… with the right conditions. It is not something that happens once in a while by luck. If u shoot 1/8000 with efcs, it will be there. No questions.
He didn’t say that he didn’t see it nor that it wasn’t there, like you claimed here:
wind30 wrote:
The cut bokeh is physics so I don’t understand why galer don’t see it…. That is my point. Galer said something that to me is factually wrong.
Again, he clearly said that at 1/8000 secs the effect was there.
Aug 31, 2023 at 04:49 PM
p.3 #10Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
AGeoJO wrote:
I don’t agree u see it rarely. U see it all the time if it’s 1/8000. The cut bokeh is physics so I don’t understand why galer don’t see it…. That is my point. Galer said something that to me is factually wrong.
https://www.keehian.com/russia2018/images/russia_066.jpgYou didn’t see the video, did you ? He clearly mentioned that he saw the effect of some city skyline at 1/8000 sec. He used a Nikon MF lens for that particular shot.I did not watch the video again, I watched it years ago.
Context, I meant why galer don’t see it all the time… with the right conditions. It is not something that happens once in a while by luck. If u shoot 1/8000 with efcs, it will be there. No questions.He didn’t say that he didn’t see it nor that it wasn’t there, like you claimed here:
Again, he clearly said that at 1/8000 secs the effect was there.
….. then why did Chiron say no cut bokeh balls in the first post We can argue until the cows go home but the message of the video obviously was it is a rare thing that is not a problem… I totally disagree with that message and I feel it misleads other people. Everyone use cases are different. If u don’t shoot wide aperture high speed shutter, u will never see it. But the point was that we all know u have to shoot high shutter speed and under those conditions, it is always a problem and not rare at all.
wind30 wrote
AGeoJO wrote
wind30 wrote
If u can’t find it, it’s in the Russian gallery.I don’t agree u see it rarely. U see it all the time if it’s 1/8000. The cut bokeh is physics so I don’t understand why galer don’t see it…. That is my point. Galer said something that to me is factually wrong.
https://www.keehian.com/russia2018/images/russia_066.jpg
? He clearly mentioned that he saw the effect of some city skyline at 1/8000 sec. He used a Nikon MF lens for that particular shot.Context, I meant why galer don’t see it all the time… with the right conditions. It is not something that happens once in a while by luck. If u shoot 1/8000 with efcs, it will be there. No questions.
wind30 wrote
The cut bokeh is physics so I don’t understand why galer don’t see it…. That is my point. Galer said something that to me is factually wrong.….. then why did Chiron say no cut bokeh balls in the first post
We can argue until the cows go home but the message of the video obviously was it is a rare thing that is not a problem… I totally disagree with that message and I feel it misleads other people. Everyone use cases are different. If u don’t shoot wide aperture high speed shutter, u will never see it. But the point was that we all know u have to shoot high shutter speed and under those conditions, it is always a problem and not rare at all. Aug 31, 2023 at 04:55 PM
p.3 #11Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
At 15:08 he shows an image shot at 1/10,000 saying it has no uneven exposure, but from what I know there is no way it could be an EFCS image since all mechanical shutters max out at 1/8000. Then he goes on to suggest it's a non-Sony lens issue only. Hmmm....
Aug 31, 2023 at 05:03 PM
p.3 #12Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
jeffbuzz wrote:
Seems like below 1/1000 will be impossible to tell (in real photos), and even 1/2000 would be very tough to tell. Any higher than that might stand out. Apart from sports (and neither of these variants are targeting sports), what applications would involve fast apertures and high shutter speeds? Do wedding photographers find themselves shooting over 1/2000? Then again if you're a wedding photographer you probably wouldn't be shooting with just one card slot.
Both cameras still seem like fantastic travel and landscape cameras to me. But I'm open to the fact that I could be missing something.HSS (High Speed Sync) with large aperture lenses. Rather common use case and a feature that Sony specifically touts.
EFCS doesn't work with HSS flash?
gunmetal wrote
jeffbuzz wrote
Is it a problem? You decide.Both cameras still seem like fantastic travel and landscape cameras to me. But I'm open to the fact that I could be missing something.
EFCS doesn't work with HSS flash?
Aug 31, 2023 at 05:09 PM
p.3 #13Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
Small point about the deleterious effect on bokeh of EFCS. It depends on the distance from the second/rear/only shutter curtain to the sensor. The examples of it we usually see are taken with cameras with complete focal-plane shutters. It may well be that these newfangled single-curtain EFCS-only shutters have the curtain closer to the sensor, mitigating the problem. Just saying, don't lknow.
Aug 31, 2023 at 05:15 PM
p.3 #14Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
jaygould wrote:
Seems like below 1/1000 will be impossible to tell (in real photos), and even 1/2000 would be very tough to tell. Any higher than that might stand out. Apart from sports (and neither of these variants are targeting sports), what applications would involve fast apertures and high shutter speeds? Do wedding photographers find themselves shooting over 1/2000? Then again if you're a wedding photographer you probably wouldn't be shooting with just one card slot.
Both cameras still seem like fantastic travel and landscape cameras to me. But I'm open to the fact that I could be missing something.HSS (High Speed Sync) with large aperture lenses. Rather common use case and a feature that Sony specifically touts.EFCS doesn't work with HSS flash?
It works but shows banding (at high shutter speed):
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51160448593_62349087a7_b.jpg
EFCS 1/8000s
Though, AFAIR, there are some flash models/brands that work better with HSS.
Edited on Aug 31, 2023 at 05:41 PM · View previous versions
jeffbuzz wrote
gunmetal wrote
jeffbuzz wrote
Is it a problem? You decide.Both cameras still seem like fantastic travel and landscape cameras to me. But I'm open to the fact that I could be missing something.
It works but shows banding (at high shutter speed):
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51160448593_62349087a7_b.jpg
EFCS 1/8000s
Though, AFAIR, there are some flash models/brands that work better with HSS.
Edited on Aug 31, 2023 at 05:41 PM · View previous versions
Aug 31, 2023 at 05:24 PM
p.3 #15Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
AZSteve wrote:
Small point about the deleterious effect on bokeh of EFCS. It depends on the distance from the second/rear/only shutter curtain to the sensor. The examples of it we usually see are taken with cameras with complete focal-plane shutters. It may well be that these newfangled single-curtain EFCS-only shutters have the curtain closer to the sensor, mitigating the problem. Just saying, don't lknow.
Well, it's still there on A1, which also has a single curtain...
Small point about the deleterious effect on bokeh of EFCS. It depends on the distance from the second/rear/only shutter curtain to the sensor. The examples of it we usually see are taken with cameras with complete focal-plane shutters. It may well be that these newfangled single-curtain EFCS-only shutters have the curtain closer to the sensor, mitigating the problem. Just saying, don't lknow.
Well, it's still there on A1, which also has a single curtain...
Aug 31, 2023 at 05:26 PM
p.3 #16Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
j4nu wrote:
Longer lenses have shallow enough DOF to begin with.I think for posed portraits, electronic (silent) shutter should be ok. It's the travel / family "portraits" that might be an issue, IMHO.Why do you think travel portrait or even family portraits being an issue with ES?Because I can't be sure my subjects won't move suddenly...What type of subject are we talking about here. I shot 20 years of travel photography without seeing these sudden subject movements…at least not ones that would cause an issue with ES on the A7R3.
Maybe post an example of a ruined portrait caused by movement shot using ES.My kids mostly, I was using A7III then and from time to time (not too often really) I've run into distorted limbs, head, etc. I think A7RV / A7Cr has 2x slower readout so the issue might be more frequent...
Yep, electronic shutter on the A7III is only useful with very still subjects. Photos of kids moving around will show lots of distortion. ES can easily ruin photos with the A7III.
chez wrote
j4nu wrote
chez wrote
j4nu wrote
Sndr wrote
It's especially an issue with portraits with fast 35mm and shorter lenses: they need a larger aperture to create separation between the subject and the background.Longer lenses have shallow enough DOF to begin with.
Maybe post an example of a ruined portrait caused by movement shot using ES.
Yep, electronic shutter on the A7III is only useful with very still subjects. Photos of kids moving around will show lots of distortion. ES can easily ruin photos with the A7III.
Aug 31, 2023 at 06:00 PM
p.3 #17Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
Interesting descussion but honestly I’m not liking what I am reading on this.bottom line I’ve been at this 50 years and end of day I want full control of everything. These new systems are not doing that. That really bugs me
Aug 31, 2023 at 06:09 PM
p.3 #18Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
GMPhotography wrote:
Interesting descussion but honestly I’m not liking what I am reading on this.bottom line I’ve been at this 50 years and end of day I want full control of everything. These new systems are not doing that. That really bugs me
This was the very reason I HAD to try a Leica M, so I have bought an M240 (being the cheapest option, before knowing if I will like it or not). You know, that "full control" thing. And, OMG, I barely resisted 6 month with that camera, ending up in frustration. So glad I got rid of it...But I do like the "rangefinder" style cameras, that's why I am so disappointed about the A7c "upgrades" we got from these two new rangefinder style cameras Sony has just launched...
Interesting descussion but honestly I’m not liking what I am reading on this.bottom line I’ve been at this 50 years and end of day I want full control of everything. These new systems are not doing that. That really bugs me
This was the very reason I HAD to try a Leica M, so I have bought an M240 (being the cheapest option, before knowing if I will like it or not). You know, that "full control" thing. And, OMG, I barely resisted 6 month with that camera, ending up in frustration. So glad I got rid of it...But I do like the "rangefinder" style cameras, that's why I am so disappointed about the A7c "upgrades" we got from these two new rangefinder style cameras Sony has just launched...
Aug 31, 2023 at 06:38 PM
p.3 #19Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
chiron wrote:
Yes, I know you can get this effect. Please show me a real photograph taken by you where it is a problem.
First and third images here:
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1697615/36#16072153
jeffbuzz wrote
Is it a problem? You decide.First and third images here:
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1697615/36#16072153
Aug 31, 2023 at 06:59 PM
p.3 #20Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
catacore wrote:
This was the very reason I HAD to try a Leica M, so I have bought an M240 (being the cheapest option, before knowing if I will like it or not). You know, that "full control" thing. And, OMG, I barely resisted 6 month with that camera, ending up in frustration. So glad I got rid of it...But I do like the "rangefinder" style cameras, that's why I am so disappointed about the A7c "upgrades" we got from these two new rangefinder style cameras Sony has just launched...
I totally get this and I was and still am a huge fan of Leica but my issue was it just did not support me very easily when doing paid gigs. It fell short on the limitations.
GMPhotography wrote
Interesting descussion but honestly I’m not liking what I am reading on this.bottom line I’ve been at this 50 years and end of day I want full control of everything. These new systems are not doing that. That really bugs meI totally get this and I was and still am a huge fan of Leica but my issue was it just did not support me very easily when doing paid gigs. It fell short on the limitations.
Aug 31, 2023 at 07:04 PM