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Archive 2023Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
p.6 #1Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
jwpstl wrote:
Remember I’m advocating for you folks on this. Even if I wanted to add this to my kit I would have to limit how I use it. Not sure that’s a good buy thanYou are lumping APS-C cameras in with the full frame lineup and you can't do that. The 6700 is the top of the line Sony APS-C and therefore offers quite a lot of features. But being that the sensor is APS-C it will be considerable cheaper than the full frame equivalent just because the sensor costs less. If the 6700 had a full frame sensor it would be twice the price.
You are trying to justify since I’m a Pro I should use X camera that you can’t do either. I want to grab any camera in my bag and use exactly the same. I can’t do that with this A7c period. But I can with a 6700 and my A7RV exactly the same but the middle of the road A7C I can’t. That makes zero sense. What makes the A7cr any different than a missing hump on it to the A7RV. My opinion they screwed the pouch here. Not buying it anyway but the pecking order is out of whack.
Edited on Sep 01, 2023 at 04:25 PM · View previous versions
GMPhotography wrote
Of course and I have the A7RV and I’m covered but I’m also covered with a 6700 that has the same feature set but a camera in the middle of the lineup does not than that makes zero sense and that is the point. I don’t matter in this but it’s about the abilities of the lineup and your middle camera is missing feature sets but you low cost variant has them. That’s the point that keeps getting glossed overRemember I’m advocating for you folks on this. Even if I wanted to add this to my kit I would have to limit how I use it. Not sure that’s a good buy than
You are trying to justify since I’m a Pro I should use X camera that you can’t do either. I want to grab any camera in my bag and use exactly the same. I can’t do that with this A7c period. But I can with a 6700 and my A7RV exactly the same but the middle of the road A7C I can’t. That makes zero sense. What makes the A7cr any different than a missing hump on it to the A7RV. My opinion they screwed the pouch here. Not buying it anyway but the pecking order is out of whack.
Edited on Sep 01, 2023 at 04:25 PM · View previous versions
Sep 01, 2023 at 03:47 PM
p.6 #2Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
I like Mark’s videos and his approach to presenting Sony products in the most favorable light but not over stating their capabilities. I am concerned that he and other talented pros have not been able to convince Sony to take Fuji’s, in my opinion, approach and offer settings in camera capabilities that automatically moves from mechanical with EFCS disabled to enabling it to converting to Electronic shutter. Sure that would mean that Sony has to do the engineering to include a true full two curtain mechanical shutter in all of their cameras and then the software to manage it but most of think it’s worth it. At least those who have bothered to read this thread.
Admit though that Sony has spent far more time on AF technology than Fuji has and also is more focused on video, where I believe it has no real effect, than Fuji so maybe it’s a tradeoff on how you spend your resources. Fuji on shutters and Sony on Auto Focus and video capability.
I’m no expert in this area although I used to design focal plane sensors for IR but I am an experienced engineer and know you have to pick your fights and split your time on what you think your priorities are.
Admit though that Sony has spent far more time on AF technology than Fuji has and also is more focused on video, where I believe it has no real effect, than Fuji so maybe it’s a tradeoff on how you spend your resources. Fuji on shutters and Sony on Auto Focus and video capability.
I’m no expert in this area although I used to design focal plane sensors for IR but I am an experienced engineer and know you have to pick your fights and split your time on what you think your priorities are.
Sep 01, 2023 at 03:50 PM
p.6 #3Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
Fboss wrote:
EFCS is a problem for me at high (> 1/2000 sec) shutter speeds, it clearly degrades the bokeh. I always switch to full mechanical or electronic shutter when using a fast lens on the A7RV. I have ruined pictures in the past when I didn't know the impact of the EFCS on the bokeh.
Could you show some more pictures or comparisons?
Edited on Sep 01, 2023 at 07:46 PM · View previous versions
EFCS is a problem for me at high (> 1/2000 sec) shutter speeds, it clearly degrades the bokeh. I always switch to full mechanical or electronic shutter when using a fast lens on the A7RV. I have ruined pictures in the past when I didn't know the impact of the EFCS on the bokeh.
Could you show some more pictures or comparisons?
Edited on Sep 01, 2023 at 07:46 PM · View previous versions
Sep 01, 2023 at 07:08 PM
p.6 #4Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
jtra wrote:
FYI, I have an explanation how it happens that EFCS cuts off bokeh.
It is not caused by cheap or small shutter. It happens because electronic (1st curtain) and mechanical shutter (2nd curtain) are not at the same distance from lens (for full mechanic and full electronic the distance between curtains from the lens is the same so there is no issue).
https://jtra.cz/stuff/essays/bokeh/index.html#efcs
That is an amazing and extremely comprehensive article on bokeh, Wow!
Thank you very much!
FYI, I have an explanation how it happens that EFCS cuts off bokeh.
It is not caused by cheap or small shutter. It happens because electronic (1st curtain) and mechanical shutter (2nd curtain) are not at the same distance from lens (for full mechanic and full electronic the distance between curtains from the lens is the same so there is no issue).
https://jtra.cz/stuff/essays/bokeh/index.html#efcs
That is an amazing and extremely comprehensive article on bokeh, Wow!
Thank you very much!
Sep 01, 2023 at 07:21 PM
p.6 #5Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
The threat to image appearance seems vexatious and (significantly) unpredictable. And that's a suspicion made worse by the lack of decent analyses on the subject. Mark is compromised by his contract, and that is not a knock on him. It's ironic Sony is moving rapidly to full cream bokeh, massive separation, full-size lenses for their established camera lines, but the video/vlogging centric bodies might mostly use the little lenses they have produced and will produce.
Being a believer in habit-forming 'reliability rituals' for travel, a non-mech shutter option is out. It's too difficult to see the problems in shotmaking environments in image review amid rapid light changes. And why would anyone in their right mind want to add to their list of maker-induced 'must dos'?
And having grown to know and enjoy your lens's images (esp bokeh and DOF) why run the risk? I would not want Sony buggering up Cosina's great work. Many, many quasi-artistic images comprise 80% bokeh/focus fade, so who is Galer to opine that EFCS is 'your friend' simply on the basis it is a little faster and is sometimes not obvious?
And 'no fast track' to switching on/off? Oh, great design. Mark might mostly shoot non-artistic content, where bokeh is much less of a component of the image. His vision is poor re the image pair 20:15, the leftside artifacted image is really blotchy, looks like a poor app or phone image. He is defending the camera introducing pictorial artifacts! And he cherry picks and puts the ON images for longer and puts them first. It's a con, in other words.
"That truncated bokeh most visible on the right side of the frame should serve as your friendly reminder to switch off electronic front-curtain shutter (EFCS) at very high shutter speeds. That truncated bokeh leads to more 'busyness', and less-shallow-than-expected depth of field."
Just a 'friendly reminder' eh, slave. ;-)
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-fe-35mm-f1-4-gm-field-review
Being a believer in habit-forming 'reliability rituals' for travel, a non-mech shutter option is out. It's too difficult to see the problems in shotmaking environments in image review amid rapid light changes. And why would anyone in their right mind want to add to their list of maker-induced 'must dos'?
And having grown to know and enjoy your lens's images (esp bokeh and DOF) why run the risk? I would not want Sony buggering up Cosina's great work. Many, many quasi-artistic images comprise 80% bokeh/focus fade, so who is Galer to opine that EFCS is 'your friend' simply on the basis it is a little faster and is sometimes not obvious?
And 'no fast track' to switching on/off? Oh, great design. Mark might mostly shoot non-artistic content, where bokeh is much less of a component of the image. His vision is poor re the image pair 20:15, the leftside artifacted image is really blotchy, looks like a poor app or phone image. He is defending the camera introducing pictorial artifacts! And he cherry picks and puts the ON images for longer and puts them first. It's a con, in other words.
"That truncated bokeh most visible on the right side of the frame should serve as your friendly reminder to switch off electronic front-curtain shutter (EFCS) at very high shutter speeds. That truncated bokeh leads to more 'busyness', and less-shallow-than-expected depth of field."
Just a 'friendly reminder' eh, slave. ;-)
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-fe-35mm-f1-4-gm-field-review
Sep 01, 2023 at 08:01 PM
p.6 #6Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
swldstn wrote:
I am concerned that he and other talented pros have not been able to convince Sony to take Fuji’s, in my opinion, approach and offer settings in camera capabilities that automatically moves from mechanical with EFCS disabled to enabling it to converting to Electronic shutter.
But why would he advocate for a solution if it's not an issue according to him
?
I am concerned that he and other talented pros have not been able to convince Sony to take Fuji’s, in my opinion, approach and offer settings in camera capabilities that automatically moves from mechanical with EFCS disabled to enabling it to converting to Electronic shutter.
But why would he advocate for a solution if it's not an issue according to him
?Sep 02, 2023 at 05:32 AM
p.6 #7Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
jeffbuzz wrote:
You need to describe the shooting setup and identify the type of light source and its operating frequency for these examples to be meaningful.It's a simple out of focus highlight example. LED bulb ~ 1 meter away with focus at infinity. Took me all of 5 minutes.
But is the LED driven by a pure DC current and thus emitting continuously or fluctuating as some LEDs do?
molson wrote
jeffbuzz wrote
Is it a problem? You decide.But is the LED driven by a pure DC current and thus emitting continuously or fluctuating as some LEDs do?
Sep 02, 2023 at 09:12 AM
p.6 #8Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
jeffbuzz wrote:
Seems like below 1/1000 will be impossible to tell (in real photos), and even 1/2000 would be very tough to tell. Any higher than that might stand out. Apart from sports (and neither of these variants are targeting sports), what applications would involve fast apertures and high shutter speeds? Do wedding photographers find themselves shooting over 1/2000? Then again if you're a wedding photographer you probably wouldn't be shooting with just one card slot.
Both cameras still seem like fantastic travel and landscape cameras to me. But I'm open to the fact that I could be missing something.HSS (High Speed Sync) with large aperture lenses. Rather common use case and a feature that Sony specifically touts.Would someone using HSS be using a camera with only 1 card slot? I literally have no clue about HSS so legit question?That's a totally legitimate question which prospective a7C/R/II users need to ask. The cameras are capable of HSS regardless of card slots. You're asking about who the "typical" user might be. If you're planning to shoot outdoor portraits with a wide aperture lens and strobes, then you at least need to be aware this situation exists. Initial info on the a7CM2 says it has the same EFCS only system as the original. I'm not clear whether this is also true of the a7CR.
And that is sort of my point.
If I am going to shoot outdoor portraits with super wide open lenses, strobes, and other technical gear I personally am not going to use any camera that has only one card slot (I've had card failure before). I am sure that there are people who are getting paid who shoot with one card slot all of the time. These people also free solo El Capitan, walk over canyons on slack ropes, and base jump from the Eifel Towner Joking aside, I just think that if you're doing that level of photography, you're not even looking at the A7C series to begin with. To me, these are travel oriented offerings for folks whose livelihoods don't depend on it.
gunmetal wrote
jeffbuzz wrote
gunmetal wrote
jeffbuzz wrote
Is it a problem? You decide.Both cameras still seem like fantastic travel and landscape cameras to me. But I'm open to the fact that I could be missing something.
And that is sort of my point.
If I am going to shoot outdoor portraits with super wide open lenses, strobes, and other technical gear I personally am not going to use any camera that has only one card slot (I've had card failure before). I am sure that there are people who are getting paid who shoot with one card slot all of the time. These people also free solo El Capitan, walk over canyons on slack ropes, and base jump from the Eifel Towner
Joking aside, I just think that if you're doing that level of photography, you're not even looking at the A7C series to begin with. To me, these are travel oriented offerings for folks whose livelihoods don't depend on it. Sep 04, 2023 at 11:18 AM
p.6 #9Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
I taught at least 30 landscape workshops with Leica's/Medium Format/Sony for let's average and say 350 people and card failures were the biggest issue in failures. Today maybe not as big an issue as the cards have gotten better but shit still happens. Not to mention drops and every other issue that happens. I get paid to shoot and im always going to watch my back , that is info I can pass on. You want to ignore that type of info than that's on you just like the Sony fanboys on mechanical shutter issue and its not just bokeh but hey the end of the day I get a check and I get through a lot of stuff that many don't face . 
I go Golf now.
I go Golf now.
Sep 04, 2023 at 11:48 AM
p.6 #10Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
Is a 2nd slot nice to have for redundancy…yeh. Is it mandatory…no. We’ve made it through half the digital camera era with only one slot and all the film era with only 1 film and survived. Heck, there were many more obstacles with film such as lab screwing up the processing that destroyed a roll than the chance of a card failure these days. Get and use quality cards and don’t fret over the simple things in life.
People blow things out of reality these days…like how can someone shoot their kids with only 10fps or something only having 5 stops of ibis. It’s like how the hell did anyone actually take a photo tens years ago. Just chill and shoot.
People blow things out of reality these days…like how can someone shoot their kids with only 10fps or something only having 5 stops of ibis. It’s like how the hell did anyone actually take a photo tens years ago. Just chill and shoot.
Sep 04, 2023 at 11:58 AM
p.6 #11Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
chez wrote:
Is a 2nd slot nice to have for redundancy…yeh. Is it mandatory…no. We’ve made it through half the digital camera era with only one slot and all the film era with only 1 film and survived. Heck, there were many more obstacles with film such as lab screwing up the processing that destroyed a roll than the chance of a card failure these days. Get and use quality cards and don’t fret over the simple things in life.
People blow things out of reality these days…like how can someone shoot their kids with only 10fps or something only having 5...Show more →
100%
I'm just saying if I'm being paid for work, I'm not shooting with one card slot only. Zero chance I'm having the conversation "So about your wedding photos..." The two cards that failed on me two different times were Lexar Professional and San Disk Extreme Pro. Once in an Olympus EM1iii and the other in an A7Riii.
You want to shoot an A7Cii or R for wedding or HSS portraits? Then this shutter thing sucks. But if Sony saved costs (and presumably passed at least some of that on to the consumer) by using this shutter mechanism on the A7Cii and R - they did so in an informed manner (IE - 99% of pros ain't going to be looking at the A7Cii/R for this type of work)
I just think this mostly about the target audience.
GM - hit em' straight.
Is a 2nd slot nice to have for redundancy…yeh. Is it mandatory…no. We’ve made it through half the digital camera era with only one slot and all the film era with only 1 film and survived. Heck, there were many more obstacles with film such as lab screwing up the processing that destroyed a roll than the chance of a card failure these days. Get and use quality cards and don’t fret over the simple things in life.
People blow things out of reality these days…like how can someone shoot their kids with only 10fps or something only having 5...Show more →
100%
I'm just saying if I'm being paid for work, I'm not shooting with one card slot only. Zero chance I'm having the conversation "So about your wedding photos..." The two cards that failed on me two different times were Lexar Professional and San Disk Extreme Pro. Once in an Olympus EM1iii and the other in an A7Riii.
You want to shoot an A7Cii or R for wedding or HSS portraits? Then this shutter thing sucks. But if Sony saved costs (and presumably passed at least some of that on to the consumer) by using this shutter mechanism on the A7Cii and R - they did so in an informed manner (IE - 99% of pros ain't going to be looking at the A7Cii/R for this type of work)
I just think this mostly about the target audience.
GM - hit em' straight.
Sep 04, 2023 at 12:31 PM
p.6 #12Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
gunmetal wrote:
People blow things out of reality these days…like how can someone shoot their kids with only 10fps or something only having 5 stops of ibis. It’s like how the hell did anyone actually take a photo tens years ago. Just chill and shoot.100%
I'm just saying if I'm being paid for work, I'm not shooting with one card slot only. Zero chance I'm having the conversation "So about your wedding photos..." The two cards that failed on me two different times were Lexar Professional and San Disk Extreme Pro. Once in an Olympus EM1iii and the other in an A7Riii.
You want to shoot an A7Cii or R for wedding or HSS portraits? Then this shutter thing sucks. But if Sony saved costs (and presumably passed at least some of that on to the consumer) by using this shutter mechanism on the A7Cii...Show more →
I see a lot of talk about a second slot for backup, but very little talk about a backup camera. I’ve had a camera fail on me once…had a backup and kept shooting the rest of the trip. Actually the failed camera came back to life in a couple days.
During a once in a life time shoot in India I saw 3 camera get dunked into water, two had no spares and the other had a spare but it was not with him. In either case…they were toast. I think camera failure, theft or damage is just as likely if not more so than card failure.
chez wrote
Is a 2nd slot nice to have for redundancy…yeh. Is it mandatory…no. We’ve made it through half the digital camera era with only one slot and all the film era with only 1 film and survived. Heck, there were many more obstacles with film such as lab screwing up the processing that destroyed a roll than the chance of a card failure these days. Get and use quality cards and don’t fret over the simple things in life.People blow things out of reality these days…like how can someone shoot their kids with only 10fps or something only having 5 stops of ibis. It’s like how the hell did anyone actually take a photo tens years ago. Just chill and shoot.
I'm just saying if I'm being paid for work, I'm not shooting with one card slot only. Zero chance I'm having the conversation "So about your wedding photos..." The two cards that failed on me two different times were Lexar Professional and San Disk Extreme Pro. Once in an Olympus EM1iii and the other in an A7Riii.
You want to shoot an A7Cii or R for wedding or HSS portraits? Then this shutter thing sucks. But if Sony saved costs (and presumably passed at least some of that on to the consumer) by using this shutter mechanism on the A7Cii...Show more →
I see a lot of talk about a second slot for backup, but very little talk about a backup camera. I’ve had a camera fail on me once…had a backup and kept shooting the rest of the trip. Actually the failed camera came back to life in a couple days.
During a once in a life time shoot in India I saw 3 camera get dunked into water, two had no spares and the other had a spare but it was not with him. In either case…they were toast. I think camera failure, theft or damage is just as likely if not more so than card failure.
Sep 04, 2023 at 12:52 PM
p.6 #13Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
I haven't heard anyone propose the A7Cxx series for professional use, so this conversation about card slots seems very misplaced.
But while we are on the subject of card slots, I believe that Lecias, through the M10-R, have had only one card slot and no one seems to think that is a reason not to buy them or to value them as useful and fine cameras. I don't remember it even being discussed.
But while we are on the subject of card slots, I believe that Lecias, through the M10-R, have had only one card slot and no one seems to think that is a reason not to buy them or to value them as useful and fine cameras. I don't remember it even being discussed.
Sep 04, 2023 at 01:03 PM
p.6 #14Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
Seriously your Sony fan boy is really showing. Why do you all constantly downgrade the good advice given from well intentioned people. Buy the god damn thing no one cares but show some respect for the advice. Seriously I don’t give a shit but others do. I’m done with this place. These missing or not upgraded parts bug a lot of people and worse I can’t buy this as well as others. I had thoughts but long gone now.
No one has to propose anything for Pro use. We use what we want there are no rules or guidelines. Good advice yes but we may have several bodies with different feature sets but this one I can’t buy period. If that rubs you all wrong than tough we don’t care.
No one has to propose anything for Pro use. We use what we want there are no rules or guidelines. Good advice yes but we may have several bodies with different feature sets but this one I can’t buy period. If that rubs you all wrong than tough we don’t care.
Sep 04, 2023 at 01:26 PM
p.6 #15Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
GMPhotography wrote:
Seriously your Sony fan boy is really showing. Why do you all constantly downgrade the good advice given from well intentioned people. Buy the god damn thing no one cares but show some respect for the advice. Seriously I don’t give a shit but others do. I’m done with this place. These missing or not upgraded parts bug a lot of people and worse I can’t buy this as well as others. I had thoughts but long gone now.
No one has to propose anything for Pro use. We use what we want there are no rules or guidelines. Good advice...Show more →
Guy, it would be nice if you could discuss something without throwing out personal insults so regularly.
There is a weird sourness that some people seem to have about the A7Cxx series that is making them say strange things.
Seriously your Sony fan boy is really showing. Why do you all constantly downgrade the good advice given from well intentioned people. Buy the god damn thing no one cares but show some respect for the advice. Seriously I don’t give a shit but others do. I’m done with this place. These missing or not upgraded parts bug a lot of people and worse I can’t buy this as well as others. I had thoughts but long gone now.
No one has to propose anything for Pro use. We use what we want there are no rules or guidelines. Good advice...Show more →
Guy, it would be nice if you could discuss something without throwing out personal insults so regularly.
There is a weird sourness that some people seem to have about the A7Cxx series that is making them say strange things.
Sep 04, 2023 at 01:51 PM
p.6 #16Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
What's strange is that some people seem to think Sony should make every body fit their needs. Kind of an arrogant attitude. Sony has bodies with 2 slots, mechanical shutter, better EVF etc and they have a light weight system without those things. Expecting this body to have all of those things and be this size isn't realistic. They may not be for you but they don't have to be. Sony didn't "drop the ball" or make a mistake; they simply made a different style of camera for a certain segment of the market. Not sure why that's so hard for some to accept.
Sep 04, 2023 at 02:09 PM
p.6 #17Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
What insults you’re all sitting here saying it’s okay Sony you made a stupid mistake . I’m not here for that baby ass stuff. I have my opinion and it’s based on 50 years of shooting. My biggest issue is the shutter and not even talking about the bokeh stuff and secondly the EVF. Im not going to sit here and glorify Sonys missteps . Im a huge fan of them but I have been that ambassador for camera makers and I’d be all over their ass on this.
But I had enough of this.
But I had enough of this.
Sep 04, 2023 at 02:19 PM
p.6 #18Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
jwpstl wrote:
What's strange is that some people seem to think Sony should make every body fit their needs.
If they want to sell more cameras, they should.
The smartest strategy a company can pursue is to meet the needs of their customers.
What's strange is that some people seem to think Sony should make every body fit their needs.
If they want to sell more cameras, they should.
The smartest strategy a company can pursue is to meet the needs of their customers.
Sep 04, 2023 at 02:57 PM
p.6 #19Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
jaygould wrote:
If they want to sell more cameras, they should.
The smartest strategy a company can pursue is to meet the needs of their customers.
Really? You think the solution to maximizing profits is build the one camera that has the kitchen sink? You have a lot to learn about product development and marketing.
jwpstl wrote
What's strange is that some people seem to think Sony should make every body fit their needs.The smartest strategy a company can pursue is to meet the needs of their customers.
Really? You think the solution to maximizing profits is build the one camera that has the kitchen sink? You have a lot to learn about product development and marketing.
Sep 04, 2023 at 02:59 PM
p.6 #20Mark Galer's Video on EFCS On-or-Off
GMPhotography wrote:
What insults you’re all sitting here saying it’s okay Sony you made a stupid mistake . I’m not here for that baby ass stuff. I have my opinion and it’s based on 50 years of shooting. My biggest issue is the shutter and not even talking about the bokeh stuff and secondly the EVF. Im not going to sit here and glorify Sonys missteps . Im a huge fan of them but I have been that ambassador for camera makers and I’d be all over their ass on this.
But I had enough of this.
I'm glad to hear that nothing you said was intended as an insult. I am happy to have misunderstood.
Edited on Sep 04, 2023 at 03:22 PM · View previous versions
What insults you’re all sitting here saying it’s okay Sony you made a stupid mistake . I’m not here for that baby ass stuff. I have my opinion and it’s based on 50 years of shooting. My biggest issue is the shutter and not even talking about the bokeh stuff and secondly the EVF. Im not going to sit here and glorify Sonys missteps . Im a huge fan of them but I have been that ambassador for camera makers and I’d be all over their ass on this.
But I had enough of this.
I'm glad to hear that nothing you said was intended as an insult. I am happy to have misunderstood.
Edited on Sep 04, 2023 at 03:22 PM · View previous versions
Sep 04, 2023 at 03:19 PM