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Archive 2023 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

  
 
RoamingScott
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p.37 #1 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


JustShootMe wrote:
I used the Zfc for about 6 months or so , I can't say that the auto ISO implementation is much of an issue. You just get use to it , every camera is a bit different. 2 seconds to jump into a menu aint gonna ruin anything , people just like complaining. If that's the worst of the complaints, Nikon has a hit on their hands.


Auto ISO was the obvious thing that stood out from simply LOOKING at the camera, but seeing hard value dials getting disabled by the PASM mode reveals a total misunderstanding by Nikon about the ethos a retro body should embody.

I probably would have understood it earlier if I'd had any interest in the Z Fc but didn't. I simply think Nikon dropped the ball here with what will probably be their only retro dial camera for many years to come. It's a shame, they undid themselves by simply forcing a PASM switch onto a body that should have never had one.



Oct 17, 2023 at 02:29 PM
kwalsh
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p.37 #2 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


JustShootMe wrote:
I used the Zfc for about 6 months or so , I can't say that the auto ISO implementation is much of an issue. You just get use to it , every camera is a bit different. 2 seconds to jump into a menu aint gonna ruin anything , people just like complaining. If that's the worst of the complaints, Nikon has a hit on their hands.


The Auto-ISO thing honestly doesn't bother me. I never use Auto-ISO anyway. But the fact that if you are in Aperture Priority mode you've got a giant shutter speed dial that still says some shutter speed on it is confusing as heck. Pretty much every legacy film camera I've ever used implements A mode by turning the shutter speed dial to an "A" position, not having some lever some place that disables the dial regardless of the position of the dial.

Again, it isn't the end of the world by any means. Still seems like really poor UI choice. I suppose it is a side effect of no aperture rings. If there is an A on the Aperture ring as well then there is no need for a PASM lever/dial at all. But without an aperture ring like Nikon Z lenses now you need some way to select Shutter Priority which then leads one to a PASM lever.



Oct 17, 2023 at 02:32 PM
RoamingScott
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p.37 #3 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


kwalsh wrote:
Still seems like really poor UI choice. I suppose it is a side effect of no aperture rings. If there is an A on the Aperture ring as well then there is no need for a PASM lever/dial at all. But without an aperture ring like Nikon Z lenses now you need some way to select Shutter Priority which then leads one to a PASM lever.


That's a good point, although they could have just as easily had the left-most aperture option be Auto instead of the widest aperture value, like Sony does with ISO.



Oct 17, 2023 at 02:35 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.37 #4 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


kwalsh wrote:
The Auto-ISO thing honestly doesn't bother me. I never use Auto-ISO anyway. But the fact that if you are in Aperture Priority mode you've got a giant shutter speed dial that still says some shutter speed on it is confusing as heck. Pretty much every legacy film camera I've ever used implements A mode by turning the shutter speed dial to an "A" position, not having some lever some place that disables the dial regardless of the position of the dial.

Again, it isn't the end of the world by any means. Still seems like really poor UI choice. I suppose
...Show more

It can be confusing IF you refuse to let go of the program mode film camera mentality. By using PASM in A mode, I can leave the shutter dial on the exact shutter speed I want it to be on when I switch from A to S.

Also consider how on non-PASM manual camera with Auto on the dials, to pick up the camera and figure out WTF is going on, you have to look at and consider three different dials, ISO, Shutter Speed, and Aperture, then add that up in your head. With PASM you read left to right and know what's going on without having to even look at a dial (or at least being immediately told which dial or dials you do need to look at).

The dials won't confuse you if you understand PASM logic and have used it even for a few days.

Edited on Oct 17, 2023 at 02:40 PM · View previous versions



Oct 17, 2023 at 02:37 PM
JustShootMe
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p.37 #5 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


kwalsh wrote:
The Auto-ISO thing honestly doesn't bother me. I never use Auto-ISO anyway. But the fact that if you are in Aperture Priority mode you've got a giant shutter speed dial that still says some shutter speed on it is confusing as heck. Pretty much every legacy film camera I've ever used implements A mode by turning the shutter speed dial to an "A" position, not having some lever some place that disables the dial regardless of the position of the dial.

Again, it isn't the end of the world by any means. Still seems like really poor UI choice. I suppose
...Show more

I see what you're saying but I will likely only use lenses with an aperture ring , so the same things don't bother me. I will mostly shoot 100% manual , I don't currently own any AF lenses.



Oct 17, 2023 at 02:39 PM
nhmorgan
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p.37 #6 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


Some initial impressions and quirks.

1) As mentioned above, the ISO dial is odd as hell. In auto, the dial will override autoISO and return to autoISO in C (always!). In M mode, if autoISO is on, it's always on. C or otherwise. My solution has been to set the playback button to be the ISO button and then you can turn autoISO on or off just like on other Z cameras. I don't understand why C can't be set to be autoISO in M mode then have the dial override. That would make perfect sense. One quirk is that in auto mode, if you turn off auto ISO using the (reprogrammed) ISO button, set it to a set ISO value, turn the ISO dial to a setting, and then back to C, it returns to autoISO not your set ISO value.

2) A minor quirk, but if you like to shoot B&W with color filters, the deep tone setting will do really weird things and seems to be overexposing the image by around the number of stops the filter reduces the light by. However, things look normal in the raw file if you switch to a regular monochrome profile. So the massive overexposure is only in the deep tone profile.

3) focus peaking works, but doesn't seem to be as sensitive as the Z8 when magnification is turned on. The focus peaking barely works at 200% magnification. It works ok at 100% 1:1, but is much too imprecise without zoom or at 50% zoom to use reliably. For focus peaking, it's 100% 1:1 or nothing IMO.

4) The function button is in an awful spot; it's sensitive and in a place where you're gonna hit it a lot accidentally because of the ergos of the camera "grip." I have it set to zoom for MF.

5) The grip erogs aren't bad if you're shooting with a traditional camera grip with off hand on the lens. in fact I really like it. Even the 85mm 1.2 and 135mm feel fine on here. Non-traditional gripping like holding by the grip one handed for low angles are not doable with bigger lenses as there isn't enough to purchase. Even something like the 50mm 1.8 feels too sketchy this way. I've not tried the smallrig grip as it's out of stock.

6) the camera is big and heavy for what it's supposed to be. It's marginally heavier than the z6ii, but in the hand, it even feels like a bigger camera than the z6ii. It's thicker and taller. This surprised me. It's also doesn't really feel much like my Nikon FEs. Those feel tiny in comparison. I'm not sure how I feel about this. Was hoping for something that would be a little ligher and more nimble. Despite more metal than the ZFc, it does still feel a little more plasticky than the vintage film cameras.

7) the shutter button does allow a vintage release cable to thread in, but doesn't actually trigger the shutter. Odd choice.

8) I like having the exposure comp dial as I enjoyed that on my A1.

9) the buttons have a few more programmable options than the z6/z7 which is nice.

10) no charger included, just a USB cable.

11) UHS-ii SD card slot, but MicroSD is only UHS-i despite the fact that there are available microSD cards that are V90, so this is an odd choice. I guess that saves me some money, but I will find out this weekend if it creates a real-life scenario buffer bottleneck when shooting to both.

12) There is no port for an intervalometer was thinking this was a killer timelapse camera but I don't like to use the built in function. Also makes it hard to use for astro (although the extended shutter speeds are nice, but now sort of mandatory).

13) FTZ2 adapter doesn't look as bad as I thought it would, but a retro matching one would be nice for a camera that invites being used with older lenses.

14) This camera pairs really nicely with my voigtlander 35mm f2. I would have bought the 50mm f1 to go with it too, but it's suddenly sold out, which I suspect is because other people thought this would be a good combo with this camera, too.

15) I like setting the display button to playback because it is closer to my Z8 and I hate it in the top left. That also allows me to reprogram the playback button to ISO control because the dial doesn't work in a logical way. However, if you reprogram the display button, there is no way to change the display because no other button can be assigned to the display function from what I can tell.

16) The shutter release button is really sensitive and easy to fire multiples. Not terrible, but I wish it was a little firmer.

17) I don't like flip screens, but it works well on this camera because flipping it around fits with the minimalist vibe.

18) the IBIS mechanism not locking down and rattling around when the camera is off is disconcerting, but nikon says it has no impact on longevity.

Edited on Oct 17, 2023 at 04:35 PM · View previous versions



Oct 17, 2023 at 03:18 PM
bluehawaii
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p.37 #7 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


5a) https://www.nikon-image.com/products/accessory/body/120808310/

This should be along soon.




Oct 17, 2023 at 03:46 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.37 #8 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


RoamingScott wrote:
Manny has a great visual explanation of Nikon's absolute inanity with this camera's control scheme.

https://streamable.com/c01ysg


I think it's more intuitive to have the "Auto" option on the respective dials instead of how Nikon implemented this with the PASM selector.

With Fuji and Leica, there are "Auto" options on both ISO and shutter speed dials.



Oct 17, 2023 at 04:26 PM
RoamingScott
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p.37 #9 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


Fred Miranda wrote:
I think it's more intuitive to have the "Auto" option on the respective dials instead of how Nikon implemented this with the PASM selector.

With Fuji and Leica, there are "Auto" options on both ISO and shutter speed dials.


There is also an Auto option on old Nikon film SLRs on the shutter dial. I think the mental gymnastics a PASM selector introduces to a retro style camera forced Nikon to pick which UX element is the "master record" and they went with the PASM selector.

A good point was made earlier that Nikon's Z mount lenses are not suited to a body like this because of their lack of aperture rings as well.

It's almost as if Nikon wanted the Z F to appeal to both Fuji/Leica/film shooters used to retro dials, but also cater to more casual shooters by including the PASM selector. In the end, they priced the camera towards the former group, but the camera behaves in a way that favors the latter. It's odd.



Oct 17, 2023 at 04:37 PM
RoamingScott
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p.37 #10 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


nhmorgan wrote:
Some initial impressions and quirks.


Appreciate the write up, this tracks well with most of my assumptions about how it would wind up working in hand.

For point 7, they simply added the threading as a means of copying Fuji so you can add a soft touch shutter button...which I recommend whole heartedly! This is the one I like best of the ones I have tried thus far.



Oct 17, 2023 at 04:44 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.37 #11 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


Fred Miranda wrote:
I think it's more intuitive to have the "Auto" option on the respective dials instead of how Nikon implemented this with the PASM selector.

With Fuji and Leica, there are "Auto" options on both ISO and shutter speed dials.


It is more intuitive for those of us used to analog dials with Auto on them. If someone never had used anything but PASM, then this might make more sense for them.

I'm a die hard believer in the Leica/Fujifilm setup of having Auto on the dials, but I took a chance on the Zf anyway. I'm glad I did, because it took me longer to understand the quirks of Nikon Auto ISO than it did to get used to PASM plus dials.

My issue with the Zf at the moment is around the logic of the ISO dial. It's the opposite of how you'd expect: Right now Auto mode on the PASM selector is the only mode that turns Auto ISO on when on C and off when moved off of C to a fixed value. In Aperture Priority for example, moving the selector from C to say ISO 400 leaves Auto ISO on, and ISO 400 becomes the minimum ISO, not a fixed ISO.

Edited on Oct 17, 2023 at 05:04 PM · View previous versions



Oct 17, 2023 at 05:03 PM
chatcher
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p.37 #12 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


bluehawaii wrote:
5a) https://www.nikon-image.com/products/accessory/body/120808310/

This should be along soon.



The only improvement I can see over the SmallRig grip is that the “leatherette” could theoretically be replaced to match different camera colors.



Oct 17, 2023 at 05:03 PM
bluehawaii
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p.37 #13 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


chatcher wrote:
The only improvement I can see over the SmallRig grip is that the “leatherette” could theoretically be replaced to match different camera colors.


When you handle the smallrig grip it is an injection moulded rubberised plastic with a moulded leatherette pattern. There is some small amount of give to the plastic.

The Nikon Z f-GR1 matches the camera perfectly and integrates with the camera body in a much more tactile and pleasing way in my opinion. Materials are a perfect match also.



Oct 17, 2023 at 06:08 PM
JustShootMe
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p.37 #14 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


I really like the manual focus experience with this camera. The subject detection works great, combined with the focus confirmation with the Voigtlander Z mount lenses is manual focus heaven. Dense little camera, has some weight to it , undecided if I will bother with the grip or not. The 40 1.2 looks like it was made for this body , the 50 1.0 is quite a bit larger.

This aint me , but I agree with his assessment of the knobs etc. Very tactile feel to everything thus far.




Oct 17, 2023 at 08:13 PM
fjablo
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p.37 #15 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


Here are two videos showcasing Voigtlander lenses on the Zf:

This one is in Japanese and shows the 55mm F-mount and the 40mm Z-mount (from ca minute 12)

?si=4sxhG0IHt1DLsatG

This one shows the 35mm and 50mm APO Lanthar and the Noct-Nikkor 58mm f1.2 in use:

?si=Hnxb_zBnlUlM1NBH

I had almost convinced myself to get the 40mm Nokton over the 50mm APO, but now I‘m not sure anymore



Oct 17, 2023 at 10:07 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.37 #16 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


fjablo wrote:
Here are two videos showcasing Voigtlander lenses on the Zf:

This one is in Japanese and shows the 55mm F-mount and the 40mm Z-mount (from ca minute 12)

?si=4sxhG0IHt1DLsatG

This one shows the 35mm and 50mm APO Lanthar and the Noct-Nikkor 58mm f1.2 in use:

?si=Hnxb_zBnlUlM1NBH

I had almost convinced myself to get the 40mm Nokton over the 50mm APO, but now I‘m not sure anymore


Z-mount 40 1.2, 50 APO, and 65 APO are all going to be must-haves for me. I plan to start with the 50 APO. I used the M version of the 50 APO with the SL2-S, and the in focus areas at f/2 are so high-resolving, it gives a very three dimensional feel to the image. Totally different way of adding visual separation compared to a lens that has f/1 or 1/2 bokeh but lower contrast/resolution wide open.



Oct 17, 2023 at 10:29 PM
bernardl
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p.37 #17 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf




RoamingScott wrote:
That's a good point, although they could have just as easily had the left-most aperture option be Auto instead of the widest aperture value, like Sony does with ISO.



Another point is that the ISO value plays a role in the implementation of Auto ISO.

It is the minimum ISO value the camera will not go under. So an A on the ISO dial does not work either.

And, as has been written, the ability to keep a shutter speed dialed in while using A mode is great when you switch back to S mode or M mode.

So Nikon did in fact of course give a lot of thinking to the UI in various usage patterns.

Cheers,
Bernard



Oct 17, 2023 at 11:13 PM
1bwana1
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p.37 #18 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


Maybe I just don't get the ISO controversy. To me the ISO is last on the list of image design parameters, as it has the least impact on the image I am trying to create.

First is Aperture for me. I use this to achieve the depth of field I want the image to have. This is an artistic choice.

Second is Shutter Speed. I will either want a shutter speed that is fast enough to freeze any motion in the subject or scene, or slow enough to show specific motion. Also artistic choices I insist on making.

Therefore I set these parameter manually to create the image I am looking for.

Third is the ISO value. Because ISO can induce artifacts like noise and lower dynamic range, I pretty much always want the camera to select the lowest possible ISO that gets correct exposure at my set Aperture and Shutter Speed. Auto ISO is very good at doing this. Also in this use, the Exposure Compensation dial is essentially setting the ISO as that is the only parameter the camera is allowed to change. Very direct logic that is easy to manage.

I often set a maximum ISO value that I don't want the camera to exceed. If that is not high enough then I want the number of stops underexposed to be shown by the light meter so I can make different choices in Aperture and Shutter Speed.

I think all of my cameras automatically set the minimum ISO to the base ISO of the sensor. So that is a parameter I don't need to set. In the case of my A1 that is ISO 100, My Leica M11 that is ISO 64. But I always want the minimum ISO as close to base as possible as this yields maximum IQ.

The conversation here seems to be focused on setting Minimum ISO not Maximum. Is this because you guys want to leave the camera to choose two parameters? Such as ISO and Shutter Speed? Making decisions achieving some compromise by an algorithm you have no control, over? In such a case it seems to me that by choosing a minimum ISO you are really trying to influence the cameras algorithm to choose a higher Shutter Speed? In that case I want the camera to respect a setting such as ISO Minimum Shutter speed, not minimum ISO. When i use such a setting it is mostly used for fast moving subjects like Wildlife or sports where shutter speed is very important.

The most common setup for me is Manual Mode with Auto ISO. The camera respects my Aperture and Shutter Speed settings on the dials or rings, and floats the ISO to achieve the closest value to Base ISO possible. I can then bias the exposure with Exposure compensation which in actuality only affects the ISO chosen.

For landscapes on a tripod I will shoot everything in Manual Mode. I don't want the camera to make any choices in setting. I use it simply as a light meter so i can make my own choices on DOF, and Exposure.

One again, why all the focus here on minimum ISO?

Edited on Oct 18, 2023 at 12:04 AM · View previous versions



Oct 17, 2023 at 11:55 PM
fjablo
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p.37 #19 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


highdesertmesa wrote:
Z-mount 40 1.2, 50 APO, and 65 APO are all going to be must-haves for me. I plan to start with the 50 APO. I used the M version of the 50 APO with the SL2-S, and the in focus areas at f/2 are so high-resolving, it gives a very three dimensional feel to the image. Totally different way of adding visual separation compared to a lens that has f/1 or 1/2 bokeh but lower contrast/resolution wide open.


Yeah I’m kind of hoping the APO gives a somewhat similar look to medium format lenses on film - relatively fast, but very sharp in the plane of focus which exaggerates the difference to the out of focus areas.

I also have the CV 35mm f1.5 which should be more similar to the 40mm in terms of being a bit ‚dreamy‘ wide-open. So the 50mm probably makes more sense. I‘ll probably end up owning both at some point anyway 😄



Oct 17, 2023 at 11:57 PM
ilkka_nissila
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p.37 #20 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


That is not quite what the ISO setting does in Nikon's Auto ISO implementation (although in many typical situations it appears that way). It is not the low limit of the range but the setting that is used if correct exposure can be achieved using that ISO and the aperture and shutter speed settings and freedoms the user has given to the camera. There are situations where the camera will select a lower ISO than the value set by the user in Auto ISO operation. I usually set the suggested ISO to base ISO when using auto ISO because I always want the best quality possible given the shutter speed and aperture limitations I have in a situation. However, sometimes when going from manual ISO to auto ISO the setting is at an elevated level and so the camera tries to stick to that and will not go lower unless that's the only way a correct exposure can be achieved. This is usually not what I want but rather I'd like it to use the lowest ISO possible, but if the minimum shutter speed is set incorrectly then having an elevated suggested ISO in Auto ISO setting can help stick to a reasonable shutter speed. But then it's not always going to obtain the best image quality possible. Adjusting the minimum shutter speed requires a menu dive but the Auto, +-2 stops settings can be very useful. For primarily static (but hand-held) shooting or slowly moving subjects, I'd set it to Auto without correction. If I'm shooting primarily moving subjects then Auto+1 or +2 can be needed to freeze most movement. I think this is probably the easiest way to make Auto ISO to do sensible things. If you then need to force very fast shutter speeds, manual mode is probably the easiest way to go.

bernardl wrote:
Another point is that the ISO value plays a role in the implementation of Auto ISO.

It is the minimum ISO value the camera will not go under. So an A on the ISO dial does not work either.

And, as has been written, the ability to keep a shutter speed dialed in while using A mode is great when you switch back to S mode or M mode.

So Nikon did in fact of course give a lot of thinking to the UI in various usage patterns.

Cheers,
Bernard




Oct 18, 2023 at 02:36 AM
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