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Archive 2023 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf

  
 
kwalsh
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p.2 #1 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


fjablo wrote:
Autofocus improvements?
I hope some of the algorithms and the 3D-tracking interface from the Z9/Z8 make their way to the Zf but this could end up being a disappointment and just the same AF as the Z6/Z7ii..


It is probably unrealistic for it to be as fast as the Z9/Z8 as far as AF goes, but it really needs to have their more useful 3D tracking user interface even if it isn't as speedy. Something like a Zf presumably will have a bit less space for buttons and so better tracking AF UI to "just work" like a sane person would expect is necessary. It is still utterly unfathomable how Nikon managed to bring to market the atrocity that was the original Z6/Z7 FW implementation of tracking! At least they eventually improved that to something less stupid. For any new camera, including the Zf, they need to have the Z8/Z9 AF UI even if not necessarily their speed or tracking performance.

---------------------------------------------

akul wrote:
Would it be conceivable that they use modified 20.8 MP sensor from D6 ?


Boy I sure hope not! And really, with the 24MP it would be a let down and sort of DOA to some users. Over the past few years I've pivoted 100% from "few people really need more than 16MP or so" to "I'm never buying a camera with less than 40 MP ever again". The reason? Cropping. With the 45MP sensors you've got a built in 1.4x aberration free teleconverter that gives you a 24MP output. APS-C at 20MP of course, and m43 at a still often useful 12MP.

Especially when out with a small prime kit like the Zf would be suited for, having the croppability of a high MP sensor would be a big win in my opinion.

Scott makes a good point about cost though. I wonder what the older Z7/Z7ii 45MP sensor cost is compared to the 24MP. Originally the delta was significant, but now? Anywho, I hope they shoe in the 45MP sensor but it might not be realistic price point wise.

And as Scott said, various Voigtlander lenses would pair great with a Zf. I wish the Voigt 21/3.5 would come out in a Z version.






Jul 26, 2023 at 04:56 PM
bluehawaii
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p.2 #2 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


Looking forward to it, I hope they put in a 5-10MP EVF.

The 28mm and 26mm are ready and waiting for it, I just wish the ZFC got an 18mm pancake with the AI-P 45mm styling.



Jul 26, 2023 at 05:13 PM
mjgphotoz
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p.2 #3 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


JustShootMe wrote:
That’s how it works


Yes, really. Murphy's Law and Mrs. Murphy is laughing out loud at us.

Mary



Jul 26, 2023 at 05:24 PM
Lee Saxon
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p.2 #4 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


I'm sure Nikon has done slightly more market research than I have ("/s" for those who lack situational awareness), but I'm not sure why it'd be a redressed Z6 II (which is what the rumored price target of $2k-2.5k suggests).

That design has been paid off, surely. That sensor has seen two gens of Z6, the D780, and isn't it also basically the D750 and D6xx sensor? Seems to me this stacked version of the 45mp sensor that's only been used in a lower-volume halo camera and just recently the Z8 is the thing they really need to spread their NRE out on.

If it'd been me I would've just released the Z8 in two different exterior dressings, retro and non-retro, which were internally identical.



Jul 26, 2023 at 05:58 PM
RoamingScott
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p.2 #5 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


There's no way to put the IBIS element in its current form in a Zf sized body.


Jul 26, 2023 at 05:59 PM
huddy
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p.2 #6 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


I'm not sure I'd ever be a buyer of the Zf for a long time due to priorities on disposable income, but if I was:
- Build quality/feel that matches at least an FM2/FE2/FM3a or F2/F3 instead of the plastic on the Zfc.
- Adjust VF algorithm/display to make manual focus snap better, more akin to an old matte ground screen.
- Add green dot focus pinpoint confirmation support for non-chipped lenses. Could be center point only, or all focus points.
- Don't drop IBIS.
- Either make the body F2/F3 sized, or slightly increase from the Zfc to include said IBIS.
- Releasing a retro styled 50/1.8 S isn't a bad idea, but an even more wild idea might be to partner with someone like CV and release a limited run Z mount versions of 1-3 legendary MF Nikkors, complete with helicoid, chips, etc:
-- 105/2.5
-- 50/1.2 , 50/1.8 (long nose), or 50/2
-- 28/2.8 AI-S

I don't at all think a Zf is as important as a Z6iii, Z50ii, or better yet a Z70/90 for Nikon's broadest consumer appeal, but if they're crazy enough to bring it to market, may as well go whole hog and channel some looking back. That would be interesting. I still love using my MF nikkors, but I really prefer them on film cameras with glorious ground matte focusing screens.



Jul 26, 2023 at 07:45 PM
akul
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p.2 #7 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


kwalsh wrote:
It is probably unrealistic for it to be as fast as the Z9/Z8 as far as AF goes, but it really needs to have their more useful 3D tracking user interface even if it isn't as speedy. Something like a Zf presumably will have a bit less space for buttons and so better tracking AF UI to "just work" like a sane person would expect is necessary. It is still utterly unfathomable how Nikon managed to bring to market the atrocity that was the original Z6/Z7 FW implementation of tracking! At least they eventually improved that to something less stupid.
...Show more

I don't know I agree that 45mp and croppability matches with the sprit of Zf as the product cue is to use it with MFNG (Manual Focus Nikon Glass), which are wonderful, but older design. Unless, as you mention, people use it with Voigtlander lens 45MP is a bit of an overkill for non-AI, AI, or even some AI-S lens. I don't think Nikon wants to promote Voigtlander lenses, On the other hand, having a low light king can let you shoot faster, which helps if there is no IBIS. Personally, I would be interested if they use 45MP with IBIS than 21MP D6 chip without IBIS,but hey, there was no AF, no VR during the time of AI lens. It is a bold statement, a 'life style' proposal. Go slow, work on your shot, bring your tripod. Enjoy life, sort of statement, which can be valid. Especially if it looks 'cute' will sell very well in Asia. I would, however, be not at all interested to get a re-skinned Z6, Z6II 24mp to just clear the bins. That only tells me there is not much concept behind the camera than the retro look. I would of course, be most interested in Z6III however. That is the shrewd reality. They shouldn't be wasting time / money on Zf, just release Z6III and be done ( unless there is a strong concept than reskinned Z6) 24MP leftover chips, no thanks.

Luka



Jul 26, 2023 at 10:26 PM
kwalsh
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p.2 #8 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


akul wrote
I don't know I agree that 45mp and croppability matches with the sprit of Zf as the product cue is to use it with MFNG (Manual Focus Nikon Glass), which are wonderful, but older design. Unless, as you mention, people use it with Voigtlander lens 45MP is a bit of an overkill for non-AI, AI, or even some AI-S lens. I don't think Nikon wants to promote Voigtlander lenses,


But by the same token they have no interest in promoting MFNG they no longer get any revenue from. They need to sell lenses, so that means modern lenses and even things like the 20/2.8 and 40/2 support cropping from 45MP with ease as they work wonderfully on the Zfc already.

That said, I don’t know that the cropping aspect of 45MP is that marketable. But I’ve found it very useful. So useful it changed my perception of the utility of high MP sensors.

I suspect these days a new 24MP FF camera would take lots of flack from reviewers as even APS-C has moved on from 24MP. Sure, no one necessarily “needs” more than 24MP, but everyone would complain anyway.

On the other hand, having a low light king can let you shoot faster, which helps if there is no IBIS. Personally, I would be interested if they use 45MP with IBIS than 21MP D6 chip without IBIS,but hey, there was no AF, no VR during the time of AI lens. It is a bold statement, a 'life style' proposal. Go slow, work on your shot, bring your tripod. Enjoy life, sort of statement, which can be valid. Especially if it looks 'cute' will sell very well in Asia.

No IBIS is a non-starter for me and I suspect for anyone who has ever used a camera with IBIS. It’s a flaw in the existing APS-C lineup that they can get away with since most APS-C users will have a lens with VR on the camera (16-50VR, 18-140VR, 50-250VR). That’s not how the FF lens line up is structured (24-50, 24-70/4/2.8, 24-120). Honestly, it has to have IBIS or it is DOA.


I would, however, be not at all interested to get a re-skinned Z6, Z6II 24mp to just clear the bins. That only tells me there is not much concept behind the camera than the retro look. I would of course, be most interested in Z6III however. That is the shrewd reality. They shouldn't be wasting time / money on Zf, just release Z6III and be done ( unless there is a strong concept than reskinned Z6) 24MP leftover chips, no thanks.


Agree, would be really sad if it was just a Z6II parts bin camera. As you say, what they really need to release is a Z6III.




Jul 27, 2023 at 04:19 AM
AdaptedLenses
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p.2 #9 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


Then why sell it?!? But agree, that would be a great combo.

RoamingScott wrote:
Maybe I'll finally be able to sell my Z Voigtlander 40/1.2 if this camera materialises

It would be the perfect MF lens for travel on a body like this.




Jul 27, 2023 at 06:30 AM
ilkka_nissila
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p.2 #10 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


I really like the Z6 II's sensor and would welcome a Zf with 24 MP. However, it would be great if they put in Expeed 7 for improved autofocus, including features such as custom wide area AF and Prores video modes.

I think 24 MP for 35mm sensor size is a great practical compromise between image quality at low and high ISO, file size and ease of providing sufficient full sensor read video modes (6K->4K or FullHD) without so much pointless number crunching (which is necessary when starting from an 8K sensor). The Z6II provides better dynamic range than Z8/9 at every equal ISO. It would be too bad if they don't combine this excellent sensor with modern processors and AF features.

Today most image use involves very little resolution as images are presented online and in apps which are viewed on tiny screems held some distance away. Making prints that are large enough to show benefit from the higher resolution sensors is not that common. (I do make a lot of prints A3+ and smaller but I am an anomaly in that). People spend huge amounts of money on cameras and lenses but are so cheap that the cost of making a print breaks the camel's back it seems. For video, high resolution is little value and even can be a downside as the detail distracts from the movement and essence of the story and consumes bandwidth that could be used for more important things such as high quality audio. I find it ironic that DVD sales exceeds that of blu-ray (FullHD) let alone 4K UHD discs. In my opinion blu-ray easily defeats streaming platforms because of the high data rate especially given to audio, for a much better sound experience. Yet people choose to ignore it.

I love the kind of user interface with mechanical dials that can be set without looking at displays or even having the camera's power on.



Jul 27, 2023 at 06:48 AM
ilkka_nissila
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p.2 #11 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


To add to the previous, it is not that I consider high resolution pointless as such; it has uses and benefits in certain (niche) applications such as bird photography and making museum-size prints (which few people do). But it would be weird if the cameras offered did not reflect how images are actually used by most photographers rather than being based on some fantasy applications which few realize.


Jul 27, 2023 at 07:00 AM
jaygould
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p.2 #12 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf




akul wrote:
I don't know I agree that 45mp and croppability matches with the sprit of Zf as the product cue is to use it with MFNG (Manual Focus Nikon Glass), which are wonderful, but older design. Unless, as you mention, people use it with Voigtlander lens 45MP is a bit of an overkill for non-AI, AI, or even some AI-S lens. I don't think Nikon wants to promote Voigtlander lenses, On the other hand, having a low light king can let you shoot faster, which helps if there is no IBIS. Personally, I would be interested if they use 45MP with
...Show more

I don't think a Zf would be a waste of resources. It would come after the Fujifilm/Leica/hipster market. A camera like that would be a way to get new people into the Z system, more so than a Z6iii would be (in my opinion).



Jul 27, 2023 at 07:00 AM
BPsmith511
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p.2 #13 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


jaygould wrote:
I don't think a Zf would be a waste of resources. It would come after the Fujifilm/Leica/hipster market. A camera like that would be a way to get new people into the Z system, more so than a Z6iii would be (in my opinion).


The Zfc is one of their most popular models in some markets, it is just not reported on as much so photography tech nerds like us are not as aware of it.



Jul 27, 2023 at 07:54 AM
TurtleCat15
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p.2 #14 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


I’m not in the market for this camera but I do think they would make a big splash if they introduced a new FTZIII that had an autofocus motor for the old AF-D lenses. Not that I own any anymore but that would be a welcome addition to many and a good companion to a Zf in concept as a camera that is usable for the most Nikon lenses across generations.


Jul 27, 2023 at 08:27 AM
fjablo
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p.2 #15 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


RoamingScott wrote:
There's no way to put the IBIS element in its current form in a Zf sized body.


Should have been possible with the APS-C sensor as the Zfc is not really smaller than a Fuji X-T5, but agree probably won't fit a FF sensor. I hope they're including IBIS and make the body a bit larger then.. not having IBIS would be a bit annoying with longer lenses like the 105mm f2.5



Jul 27, 2023 at 08:51 AM
saaketham
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p.2 #16 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


I'll take a Zf in Amber brown with silver lens please

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-mBvBXSN/0/5df032d1/XL/i-mBvBXSN-XL.png
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-vDVpcBp/0/c073e27d/X4/i-vDVpcBp-X4.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-nxQTSn4/0/5373fbdf/X4/i-nxQTSn4-X4.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-KRSSDfF/0/801692bb/X4/i-KRSSDfF-X4.jpg

And the image quality is not bad either
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-ZmQckxW/0/08b4c544/X5/i-ZmQckxW-X5.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-LgHHQJQ/0/14d4ddba/X4/i-LgHHQJQ-X4.jpg



Jul 27, 2023 at 09:05 AM
unchecked
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p.2 #17 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


jaygould wrote:
I don't think a Zf would be a waste of resources. It would come after the Fujifilm/Leica/hipster market. A camera like that would be a way to get new people into the Z system, more so than a Z6iii would be (in my opinion).


The Z6iii if they spec'ed it right making a true hybrid all-rounder will by default be more welcoming to more people by virtue that it's a hybrid camera catering to both photographers and people making video. It's why the R6ii and a7iv are Canon's and Sony's top cameras.

Nikon would be justified to think they took the Z50 and fixed it with the Z fc and they may very well do the same with the $2k full frame. So maybe Nikon can pull it off with the retro full frame.

But at the back of my mind, it reminds me of that same Nikon from 2018 that think they can get away with a single card slot with the original Z6. If the rumoured price point is true, I dread to see how Nikon's going to gimp this camera and how this abomination of a camera will turn out.

I will set my expectations down to the minimum. That will leave me some room to go "eh, it's not that bad" when we finally see it.



Jul 27, 2023 at 09:11 AM
BPsmith511
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p.2 #18 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


saaketham wrote:
And the image quality is not bad either
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-ZmQckxW/0/08b4c544/X5/i-ZmQckxW-X5.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-LgHHQJQ/0/14d4ddba/X4/i-LgHHQJQ-X4.jpg


Man something about the Z 24-70 2.8 really has subject pop/separation.



Jul 27, 2023 at 09:22 AM
RoamingScott
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p.2 #19 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


I feel like most people are missing the point of the Zf/c. It's a semi-retro "designer" camera. It's not a camera that is supposed to have the latest specs, two card slots, the best AF, etc. It's a cheaper camera for "the masses" that want to be seen with a "cool, retro looking" camera. It's why they are huge in Japan, that's THE low end market there.

A retro dialed camera is sort of wasted without lenses that have aperture rings, because then you are still beholden to using a dial to set it. It's why Nikon having a retro body is a bit silly, at least when used with Z AF lenses.

Personally if I was Nikon, I'd release the Z6iii first, and then make the Zf 6-12 months after that uses the Z6iii sensor and AF in the retro body. I think the market would be very welcoming to that strategy. If they want to keep the cost down, they'll certainly just use bin parts from the Z6ii though.

I put extremely little credence in the NR post with the supposed specs.



Jul 27, 2023 at 09:25 AM
Gary Irwin
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p.2 #20 · Let's talk about the Nikon Zf


RoamingScott wrote:
Literally all I want is a Z6ii in the ZF C body. I don't need Z8 tracking. I need a great full frame sensor with good low light so I can use it for light travel day or night.

It would be cool if it were a metal build more like the old Nikon film cameras or Fuji cameras, but that won't happen. It'll be plastic for sure.


To this I can only add that I'd like it to do basic 10-bit 4k60p video, though I know most don't care about video.



Jul 27, 2023 at 11:09 AM
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