ilkka_nissila wrote:
That is not quite what the ISO setting does in Nikon's Auto ISO implementation (although in many typical situations it appears that way). It is not the low limit of the range but the setting that is used if correct exposure can be achieved using that ISO and the aperture and shutter speed settings and freedoms the user has given to the camera. There are situations where the camera will select a lower ISO than the value set by the user in Auto ISO operation. I usually set the suggested ISO to base ISO when using auto ISO because I always want the best quality possible given the shutter speed and aperture limitations I have in a situation. However, sometimes when going from manual ISO to auto ISO the setting is at an elevated level and so the camera tries to stick to that and will not go lower unless that's the only way a correct exposure can be achieved. This is usually not what I want but rather I'd like it to use the lowest ISO possible, but if the minimum shutter speed is set incorrectly then having an elevated suggested ISO in Auto ISO setting can help stick to a reasonable shutter speed. But then it's not always going to obtain the best image quality possible. Adjusting the minimum shutter speed requires a menu dive but the Auto, +-2 stops settings can be very useful. For primarily static (but hand-held) shooting or slowly moving subjects, I'd set it to Auto without correction. If I'm shooting primarily moving subjects then Auto+1 or +2 can be needed to freeze most movement. I think this is probably the easiest way to make Auto ISO to do sensible things. If you then need to force very fast shutter speeds, manual mode is probably the easiest way to go.
I was probably not clear enough in my explanation.
There are 2 ISO vales impacting auto ISO.
1. The ISO value set in the auto ISO parameters is the maximum ISO the camera won't go above,
2. The ISO value set for the camera (changed by pressing the ISO button on a Z8 or by dialing in an ISO value with the Zf) is the minimum ISO the camera will NEVER go below
Have had it my hand for one hour, and changed a few settings so it's the same as my Zfc. At work so I havent had the oportunity to take any serious pictures yet, but I love the handling so far. The smallgrip hasnt arrived but it feels good, close to my FM2 without motor or a F3.
bernardl wrote:
I was probably not clear enough in my explanation.
There are 2 ISO vales impacting auto ISO.
1. The ISO value set in the auto ISO parameters is the maximum ISO the camera won't go above,
2. The ISO value set for the camera (changed by pressing the ISO button on a Z8 or by dialing in an ISO value with the Zf) is the minimum ISO the camera will NEVER go below
Regards,
Bernard
You were clear, but you are incorrect about point 2.
"Auto ISO sensitivity control automatically adjusts ISO sensitivity if optimal exposure cannot be achieved at the value selected by the user. "
If you have Auto ISO ON, and select an ISO on the dial that is too high for the camera to achieve correct exposure, it won't overexpose the scene rather it will use a lower ISO than selected on the dial so that correct exposure is achieved.
fjablo wrote:
Yeah I’m kind of hoping the APO gives a somewhat similar look to medium format lenses on film - relatively fast, but very sharp in the plane of focus which exaggerates the difference to the out of focus areas.
I also have the CV 35mm f1.5 which should be more similar to the 40mm in terms of being a bit ‚dreamy‘ wide-open. So the 50mm probably makes more sense. I‘ll probably end up owning both at some point anyway 😄
This is the way ! I'm tempted to grab it too , I enjoyed using it on the M10 / M240 , but I already own 10 other vintage 50's ... how many 50's does a guy need. I need a CV 90/100 F2 Z mount , I can only dream.
"Auto ISO sensitivity control automatically adjusts ISO sensitivity if optimal exposure cannot be achieved at the value selected by the user. "
If you have Auto ISO ON, and select an ISO on the dial that is too high for the camera to achieve correct exposure, it won't overexpose the scene rather it will use a lower ISO than selected on the dial so that correct exposure is achieved.
The Leica R9 - a 35mm film slr - works in a similar manner. If you are in an auto exposure mode it will override your aperture or shutter speed selection to provide the closest one that will give a correct exposure. For full control you need to be in manual mode.
"Auto ISO sensitivity control automatically adjusts ISO sensitivity if optimal exposure cannot be achieved at the value selected by the user. "
If you have Auto ISO ON, and select an ISO on the dial that is too high for the camera to achieve correct exposure, it won't overexpose the scene rather it will use a lower ISO than selected on the dial so that correct exposure is achieved.
Then this behavior differs from other Nikon cameras, I am a bit surprised.
bernardl wrote:
Then this behavior differs from other Nikon cameras, I am a bit surprised.
cheers,
Bernard
It does not. I tested the Zf, D850 and D6. They all behave the same way, as described in the manuals.
Why not give it a try. Set the camera to manual mode, turn Auto ISO ON, and set the ISO to the maximum setting allowed by the camera. In the Zf it is 64000, in the D850 25600, and so on. Set the lens wide open (say f/2.8) and the shutter speed to 1/100s. Point the camera towards a light source such as your household lamp (it may not be necessary to do that, my office environment had enough light to cause the adjustment to happen but that was with the ISO set to 64000). These cameras will reduce the ISO from the user selected ISO to go towards what it considers correct exposure.
On the Z8/Z9 this is harder to make happen as the electronic shutter supports very fast speeds and so it may require a fast lens, very slow shutter speed and so on. So you may need outdoor lighting and/or a fast lens to get this to happen. On a camera with a mechanical shutter it is easy to get it to lower the ISO from the selected even in aperture priority because it cannot go faster than 1/8000 s.
Of course, it's not a common situation in practical use as one typically uses fast shutter speeds for action and usually one selects a low ISO (together with Auto ISO) to get the best quality possible in a given situation. But the camera's logic is not that the given ISO is the lowest it can use; it can adjust the ISO upwards or downwards if necessary to give a correct exposure.
Got mine today and tried it a bit. Havent dived in to the functions and menu, just wanted to get a feel of it. 1st impression: homerun! I was a bit woried about the size but it feels great. Everything I liked with the Zfc, but better. And the quality feels amazing.
ilkka_nissila wrote:
It does not. I tested the Zf, D850 and D6. They all behave the same way, as described in the manuals.
Why not give it a try. Set the camera to manual mode, turn Auto ISO ON, and set the ISO to the maximum setting allowed by the camera. In the Zf it is 64000, in the D850 25600, and so on. Set the lens wide open (say f/2.8) and the shutter speed to 1/100s. Point the camera towards a light source such as your household lamp (it may not be necessary to do that, my office environment had enough light to cause the adjustment to happen but that was with the ISO set to 64000). These cameras will reduce the ISO from the user selected ISO to go towards what it considers correct exposure.
On the Z8/Z9 this is harder to make happen as the electronic shutter supports very fast speeds and so it may require a fast lens, very slow shutter speed and so on. So you may need outdoor lighting and/or a fast lens to get this to happen. On a camera with a mechanical shutter it is easy to get it to lower the ISO from the selected even in aperture priority because it cannot go faster than 1/8000 s.
Of course, it's not a common situation in practical use as one typically uses fast shutter speeds for action and usually one selects a low ISO (together with Auto ISO) to get the best quality possible in a given situation. But the camera's logic is not that the given ISO is the lowest it can use; it can adjust the ISO upwards or downwards if necessary to give a correct exposure. ...Show more →
Let me boil down this overwrought explanation regarding PASM DSLRs and MILCs: "In Auto-ISO, the ISO is selected automatically"
Well, yeah. That's the point. There is also a dedicated ISO button on all those cameras and Auto and Manual ISO is selectable with a single wheel flick while holding the ISO button. There is no menu diving, there's no need for a hacky My Menu solution.
For the people saying "the Z F ISO works just like ISO in all other Nikon cameras"...well, sure, Auto ISO picks your ISO, you set manual ISO. There no situation ever in which a Z9 or a D850 will show you an ISO value that isn't what's being used, unlike the dial on the Z F when set to an ISO value with Auto ISO enabled via the menu. It's dumb that the camera would be in Auto ISO, and rotating the ISO dial to any other value wouldn't immediately set the camera to manual ISO. That would be a graceful solution to the lack of the A value. Just twist the ISO dial back and forth real quick to toggle manual ISO on and get back to what was on the dial in the first place.
If I'm twisting knobs on my dial camera, odds are damn good I'm trying to set a value manually!
Nikon didn't think about this UX issue at ALL, even after people brought it to light with the Z Fc. It's important to hold manufacturers accountable for brain dead design. In this case, they can't fix it in the best way possible (have A on the dial), but there are any number of options that people have floated in this very thread that would ostensibly fix the issue and make the camera much more usable. If you just give a blanket pass to Nikon because the camera looks pretty on a shelf or you don't use a particular feature, you're the problem
You're making a big deal out of a trivial thing of the camera's user interface. Humans are adaptable and it is easy to get used to the Zf way of doing things. If you're not able (or willing) to adapt to it, use another camera. It's a pointless waste of your time to badmouth a camera because you don't like the way it works. If you did as much ranting about every camera which has an odd feature, I doubt you'd have any time for anything else. Certainly every Nikon camera has its quirks.
The Zf feels great to shoot with, is a lot of fun to use, and produces great results.
I understand that not everyone uses Auto ISO. Those of that that go back and forth depending on the situation would find the combination of PASM dial, setting dials, and software settings a contrived annoyance that doesn't have to be so, should Nikon listen to a little bit of feedback and get their head out of their you know what.
Shockingly, I might give Nikon money if they do it! I'm not bitching to bitch.
And I'm not shocked that shooters with more basic needs are enjoying the camera for what it is. That's clearly who the camera was aimed at. I'm glad they feel like they have a winner in their hands.
I had the opportunity to play with the ZF today. Interesting camera that should appeal to a certain user. A sort of imperfect blend between vintage and modern that doesn't full execute either very well.
The two things that I didn't like most of all was the way the camera fit in my hand, and the buttons and dials. Overall the camera felt a bit cheaply built to me. We must acknowledge that these kinds of things are to a large extent governed by what we are used to shooting. They are therefore relative and personal, subjective not objective. My point of reference in this type of camera is a Leica M11. Obviously not in the same price category, so not surprising.
Overall, I suspect that many will find the compromises acceptable and even enjoyable. Not many types of images that this camera cannot handle.
Could anyone please test connecting this to a computer (with USB-C) and then record video, and see if the battery holds its charge?
I want to buy this camera but I want to make sure it can be used as a webcam (via HDMI/capture card since it doesn't support UAC/UAV protocols) without having to use a dummy battery connected to an electrical outlet.
1bwana1 wrote:
I had the opportunity to play with the ZF today. Interesting camera that should appeal to a certain user. A sort of imperfect blend between vintage and modern that doesn't full execute either very well.
The two things that I didn't like most of all was the way the camera fit in my hand, and the buttons and dials. Overall the camera felt a bit cheaply built to me. We must acknowledge that these kinds of things are to a large extent governed by what we are used to shooting. They are therefore relative and personal, subjective not objective. My point of reference in this type of camera is a Leica M11. Obviously not in the same price category, so not surprising.
Overall, I suspect that many will find the compromises acceptable and even enjoyable. Not many types of images that this camera cannot handle....Show more →
I am afraid pretty much most of the other cameras (not counting other Leica bodies) will feel cheaply built in comparison to M11. While Z9/D5/D6 and all the single digit D series are built like a truck ( in a good way) but they don't look, feel or touch like luxury item as M11 in my opinion. Of course this is not expected as they are aim at different market and usage anyway.
GFX100 looks and feel cheap also in comparison. Of the cameras I have play with, may be only Hasselblad X1D/X2D
would feel as expensive as M11. Almost felt for M11 monochrome but when I found out the price last year, I thought I need to
hold off and paid for my 400/2.8S, 800PF, soon to come 600PF among other Nikon stuffs first
For the price, I think Zf is quite nice but I wish there is a thumb up that I can install on the body like on Leica M series. That would make it easier to handle. Small Rig plate/grip does make it more comfortable to hold but a thumb up would be a welcome addition but doubt there is room for that.
I am quite surprise by image quality of 40/2 with Zf. Considering the price and I have been using 50/1.2S a lot. 40/2 is holding itself pretty well while being small and light. I think on the day I don't feel like lugging around heavy camera, Zf and 40/2 will do very nicely.
Just got my Zƒ yesterday and haven't had a lot of time to use it, but first impressions are mixed. I was quite sure I would love it based on the fact that I really enjoyed the Dƒ and have been enjoying the classic styled Fujis such as the X-T:s, X-E:s and X-Pro:s.
(Weirdly I quite like the Z6 and Z9 but never the X-H line of Fujis).
It does feel, however, that those feelings did not transfer immediately to the Zƒ. I will definitely give it time, but yeah, at this point. Not convinced. I reserve the right to change my mind for no good reason though.
ilkka_nissila wrote:
It does not. I tested the Zf, D850 and D6. They all behave the same way, as described in the manuals.
Why not give it a try. Set the camera to manual mode, turn Auto ISO ON, and set the ISO to the maximum setting allowed by the camera. In the Zf it is 64000, in the D850 25600, and so on. Set the lens wide open (say f/2.8) and the shutter speed to 1/100s. Point the camera towards a light source such as your household lamp (it may not be necessary to do that, my office environment had enough light to cause the adjustment to happen but that was with the ISO set to 64000). These cameras will reduce the ISO from the user selected ISO to go towards what it considers correct exposure.
On the Z8/Z9 this is harder to make happen as the electronic shutter supports very fast speeds and so it may require a fast lens, very slow shutter speed and so on. So you may need outdoor lighting and/or a fast lens to get this to happen. On a camera with a mechanical shutter it is easy to get it to lower the ISO from the selected even in aperture priority because it cannot go faster than 1/8000 s.
Of course, it's not a common situation in practical use as one typically uses fast shutter speeds for action and usually one selects a low ISO (together with Auto ISO) to get the best quality possible in a given situation. But the camera's logic is not that the given ISO is the lowest it can use; it can adjust the ISO upwards or downwards if necessary to give a correct exposure. ...Show more →
Thanks, I will give it a try.
I have been using Auto ISO 80% of the time on my Nikons since the D2x and basically always set the base ISO as low as I can so this is what I would be doing with the Zf if I decide to buy one.
I find this discussion completely surreal as this is a total non issue.
And by the way (for Scott) it is not correct to write that other Nikons never show a "wrong" ISO value. They do every time you use auto ISO if you push on the ISO button. Fuji camera are even worse, they show the upper limit of auto ISO range until you press the shutter half wayh...
I wonder how the megadap adapter and the Zeiss Loxia lenses work. Anyone have this setup and a Z camera ? Or maybe those little Sigma contemporary lenses.
sputnik wrote:
Just got my Zƒ yesterday and haven't had a lot of time to use it, but first impressions are mixed. I was quite sure I would love it based on the fact that I really enjoyed the Dƒ and have been enjoying the classic styled Fujis such as the X-T:s, X-E:s and X-Pro:s.
(Weirdly I quite like the Z6 and Z9 but never the X-H line of Fujis).
It does feel, however, that those feelings did not transfer immediately to the Zƒ. I will definitely give it time, but yeah, at this point. Not convinced. I reserve the right to change my mind for no good reason though. ...Show more →
What is it about the Zf that you're finding lacking when compared to the Df? I loved the Df, so color me curious.
RoamingScott wrote:
Let me boil down this overwrought explanation regarding PASM DSLRs and MILCs: "In Auto-ISO, the ISO is selected automatically"
Well, yeah. That's the point. There is also a dedicated ISO button on all those cameras and Auto and Manual ISO is selectable with a single wheel flick while holding the ISO button. There is no menu diving, there's no need for a hacky My Menu solution.
For the people saying "the Z F ISO works just like ISO in all other Nikon cameras"...well, sure, Auto ISO picks your ISO, you set manual ISO. There no situation ever in which a Z9 or a D850 will show you an ISO value that isn't what's being used, unlike the dial on the Z F when set to an ISO value with Auto ISO enabled via the menu. It's dumb that the camera would be in Auto ISO, and rotating the ISO dial to any other value wouldn't immediately set the camera to manual ISO. That would be a graceful solution to the lack of the A value. Just twist the ISO dial back and forth real quick to toggle manual ISO on and get back to what was on the dial in the first place.
If I'm twisting knobs on my dial camera, odds are damn good I'm trying to set a value manually!
Nikon didn't think about this UX issue at ALL, even after people brought it to light with the Z Fc. It's important to hold manufacturers accountable for brain dead design. In this case, they can't fix it in the best way possible (have A on the dial), but there are any number of options that people have floated in this very thread that would ostensibly fix the issue and make the camera much more usable. If you just give a blanket pass to Nikon because the camera looks pretty on a shelf or you don't use a particular feature, you're the problem ...Show more →
It's true that changing Auto ISO to respect a manual dial setting as absolute would be a great thing – at least make it an option. But you do realize it's just a ludicrous to have Auto ISO on and setting the value with the ISO button + thumbwheel works the same way, you're just setting the minimum. I think the option to set ISO value as absolute and which turns Auto ISO off should be an option across the board for all Z cameras. To make that work well, they also need to add Auto ISO as a choice at the low end of the ISO menu as you're scrolling through the ISOs. And while they're at it, make the ISO values in the menu go from the lowest back around to the highest and vice versa.
1bwana1 wrote:
I had the opportunity to play with the ZF today. Interesting camera that should appeal to a certain user. A sort of imperfect blend between vintage and modern that doesn't full execute either very well.
The two things that I didn't like most of all was the way the camera fit in my hand, and the buttons and dials. Overall the camera felt a bit cheaply built to me. We must acknowledge that these kinds of things are to a large extent governed by what we are used to shooting. They are therefore relative and personal, subjective not objective. My point of reference in this type of camera is a Leica M11. Obviously not in the same price category, so not surprising.
Overall, I suspect that many will find the compromises acceptable and even enjoyable. Not many types of images that this camera cannot handle....Show more →
The triangle-shaped strap rings with their plastic protectors that rattle about make for a poor first impression on any camera.
One thing that gives a false impression of quality on the digital M cameras is the weight/density added by all the guts inside required to have the optical rangefinder. Without that, the black M11 with its aluminum top plate would feel as light as the Q/2/3 and much less premium. The shutter speed and ISO dials on the M11 actually feel of lower quality and less satisfying to turn than the dials on the Zf. It's the hollow sound inside the Zf you can hear when moving the dials versus the M11's dense body that dampens the sound that gives the differing impression at first.
Coming from the digital Ms, first impressions of the Zf may be less enthusiastic than expected. But the more time I spend using the Zf, the more I find myself reaching for it over my M.
